Savage 111 head space check

Hey guys. Been having some omgoing issues with a 111 338 win mag. When i first got it i had light primer strikes, but after i started neck sizing. this went away, except for a rare exception. so with the neck sizing i have been shooting some older 4064 powder, imr. with 230 eld bullets. these bullets seat very deep to stay clear of lands. I got up to 64 grains but had presseure signs with primers. so worked back down to 62,7 grains. Still had leaky primer, and a cracked case head above the belt on another one. So i poured powder out on paper to look for rust, but powder looks good. There is some rust spots on inside of can. Metal can. blue can. so decided to start over with once fired and some new brass. and i full lenght resized about 15 rounds same bullet and seat, at 60.1 grains. third shot total case head separation and collapsed shoulder. i checked the head spacing before with blue tape for shims on the case head. but i didnt take the extractor out. So it probrably wasnt accurate..measurement. i am thinking either powder or head spacing?? what you guys think? Full lenght brass gives me issues, but could also be old powder. any thoughts?? Should i take extractor off and try to check head space again ???. some guys use aluminum can shims also. Not sure what is giong on but it sucks...i got the separated case out by the way. been reloading 41 years and never had to deal with this

O yea... Im the second owner. i bought it used never fired. off of GB. Do you think savage would warranty it?? or look at it??

Do you mean the Ejector? The Extractor has no bearing on headspace whatsoever. Another course of thought is the Ejector makes no difference either. Still, I doubt headspace is a problem. You said you were seating the bullets deep in the case. And using 230gr ELD’s, what is your COAL? Remember, seating depth can affect pressure drastically. After a certain point, very small amounts of seating depth can significantly raise pressure. I’ve seen 9mm, 40SW pistols & 5.56 in AR’s have catastrophic KABOOMS from bullet setback.

If it indeed is a problem with the rifle, I believe they would warranty as it came from factory with the problem. A chamber causing pressure problem is not something that develops. It’s made that way.

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but after i started neck sizing. this went away, except for a rare exception. so with the neck sizing i have been shooting some older 4064 powder, imr. with 230 eld bullets. these bullets seat very deep to stay clear of lands. I got up to 64 grains but had presseure signs with primers. so worked back down to 62,7 grains. Still had leaky primer, and a cracked case head above the belt on another one.

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Sounds like you have hard brass and or you are over-sizing the brass. Anneal your necks and shoulder. Fire and use that round to set you die up to bump the shoulder back .002". We can work on your load from there.

Hey guys, yea thanks for feed back. talked to gun smith today.Old school guy in alabama. he is retiring in june after 50+ years of gun smithing...So yea we think its the powder. its old metal can stuff i keep getting pressure spikes. I keep reducing the load a little bit at a time and then i think i got it a safe load and then whamo... I will see pressure signs. its all random too. no pattern to it. So gonna try powder a powder switch first. What do you guys think of nickel plated brass by the way??? Is it stronger?

No, it’s not. It’s fine to reload, however, it doesn’t last as long, is more brittle & necks will crack/split easier.

Blue painter's tape? That's too thick, use a single layer of Scotch tape, if bolt closes easily, use 2, if bolt still closes easily you've got headspace issues IMHO.

On belted mag brass I creep up on sizing until I feel just a hint of resistance as bolt is nearly closed. Have never lost a case in either of my belted mags.

Sold all of my nickle plated rifle brass on eBay way back when you could still do that.

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Originally Posted by PhilC

On belted mag brass I creep up on sizing until I feel just a hint of resistance as bolt is nearly closed. Have never lost a case in either of my belted mags.

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FWIW: Have had some real "screamer" loads with 7mm mags over the years by doing the same with my brass...especially with H4831 and 120gr Nosler BT's,

Thanks guys for feed back. I switched to h 414 and guess what happened?? I will give detailed update tomorrow. too tired right now
problem not solved yet. but getting closer.

as Phil said, scotch tape. You have a belted mag, so your head space is in that quarter inch between the belt and case head. You get more then 2 pieces of tape in there and it closes you found a problem.
As to Nickle plate brass, I was told the do that to seconds to make it usable. Nickle dose not like being worked a lot and will crack and peel with to much body work.
Is your brass all the same brand? Mixed can cause spikes also.

Not directly related...I used to load all my heavy .357mag loads in nickel plated brass just to tell them apart from the .38 level loads in plain brass cases.

Don't have any more nickel plated so now I use colored bullets to tell the difference. Red bullets for heavy loads, blue or purple bullets for light loads. :)

Hey guys . to follow up.. checked the scotch tape. 2 layers wont close. same as blue tape. So to recap, all this brass i am using now was a mix of stuff i bought off gun broker. so last time out which was friday, i picked out 30 more brass that looked good. no signs of any issues. i full lenght resized them. Loaded 250 grain FMJ hornady FB bullet first. Start load was 65 gr of H414. Loaded them ,050 off of lands. not touching lands. 5 rounds. then 5 more at 65.7 gr. some were nickel brass some not. Got to range. started with non nickel ones at 65 gr. all of those were ok. The first 65.7 load blew in half about 1/8 inch above the belt. no pressure signs around the primer. So i went to the nickel brass and all were ok. no pressure signs. no splits either. 65.7 is not a max load either. So, in my mind it has to be brass..issue. Gonna find a box of factory ammo. if they blow apart its the chamber thats jacked up. then i can tell savage they blew in half with factory ammo

and ship the piece of crap back to them. tired of it

Have you tried using new brass or factory brass that you have shot? I’m usually wary of “mixed brass” bought online, and I prefer to track how many firings for each price of brass.


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Die set to crimp bullets? If not all trimmed the same, that can get you. When you have a problem and your reloading, The first thing to do is use eliminate as many things as possible. One brand of brass only. One bullet only until you establish a base powder charge. On your blown case's, pay attention to how much pressure it takes to seat the primer. even a well intentioned brass scrounger may pick up something I threw away as defective.

My opinion is that someone is a little too comfortable with case separation..... It doesn't always go as good as it seems for you- and I'd be very cautious until problem is found and fixed.

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Originally Posted by Grumpyoldguy

Hey guys, yea thanks for feed back. talked to gun smith today.Old school guy in alabama. he is retiring in june after 50+ years of gun smithing...So yea we think its the powder. its old metal can stuff i keep getting pressure spikes. I keep reducing the load a little bit at a time and then i think i got it a safe load and then whamo... I will see pressure signs. its all random too. no pattern to it. So gonna try powder a powder switch first. What do you guys think of nickel plated brass by the way??? Is it stronger?

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That powder is way too fast. I used to load 225's for my BIL's 116 25 years ago and always full length sized too. That rifle never saw factory ammo from day one. Use new brass, doesn't matter if it is nickel plated or not.

What ever happened here? I was just looking over these few week old threads & it never occurred to me until just reading the last response by prdatr above. I and most everyone else glanced right over it. You said 4064 powder… You are loading a 338 Magnum cartridge with powder meant for something like 223 Rem! It’s WAY too fast burning for a magnum. Here’s how I see it; I like using BLC2 for most of my 223 loads. While BLC2 can double for say, 308 Win, I think it’s bit hot & prefer it for 223. Accurate 4064 is around 7 powder choices hotter burning than BLC2. IMR 4064 is 9 places hotter! So I’m going to agree with what your gun guy originally said. Although I believe you were insinuating fault due to the powder’s age? I agree with prdatr, it’s way too hot for any magnum.

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Originally Posted by Grumpyoldguy

and ship the piece of crap back to them. tired of it

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Maybe this happened?

I went back to the Hodgdon website.

4064 Max for 225gn bullet is 61.7 and he was at 64gn with a 230gn bullet seated 'deep' ???

H414 max for 250gn bullet is 65gn and that was his starting load.

All this with mixed brass of unknown condition.

I guess I am not surprised at the results.

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Originally Posted by charlie b

I went back to the Hodgdon website.

4064 Max for 225gn bullet is 61.7 and he was at 64gn with a 230gn bullet seated 'deep' ???

H414 max for 250gn bullet is 65gn and that was his starting load.

All this with mixed brass of unknown condition.

I guess I am not surprised at the results.

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YUP! I see the same, 61.7gr max. Considering one might use IMR4350 with a max of 72 grains for that same 225gr bullet. Seriously.. 61.7gr vs 72gr? That tells you everything right there. Over a 10gr split between the two. Tells me 4064 ain’t exactly a great choice and should be handled with care. I stay away from fast powders for what I’m loading period. Even if there was faster powder that was all the rage for accuracy, and granted using less powder per round. Nah! I’ll sacrifice that little bit for the extra safety margin. I enjoy,when I’m reloading, looking in the cases after powder fill & knowing I could never over fill the case to being a danger without realizing the mistake. One of the tidbits I learned when first reloading; using the slower powders best suited for each cartridge I reload.

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Originally Posted by charlie b

4064 Max for 225gn bullet is 61.7 and he was at 64gn with a 230gn bullet seated 'deep' ???

H414 max for 250gn bullet is 65gn and that was his starting load.

All this with mixed brass of unknown condition.

I guess I am not surprised at the results.

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^^^^This is why I stopped responding^^^^

My "scotch" tape is much thinner than my blue painter's tape and full length sizing belted mag brass assures early case failure.

PhilC hit the problem right on the head. A belted case headspaces on the belt not the shoulder like a rimless case. I don't care how much of the wrong powder you put in the case on a good bolt action if the case fits the chamber you won't get a case head separation. You will blow primers, blow case heads and break bolts before a case head separation. You need to adjust your sizing die so the case just fits the chamber(head spaces on the shoulder). Here's where you can remove the ejector on a rifle with a spring loaded ejector. Back your sizing die off a couple turns and size your case, place it under the extractor and try to chamber it, it shouldn't chamber. Keep turning the sizing die in a little until the case chambers with just a slight effort. It is best to do this with freshly annealed unsized cases or once fired new cases and the expander ball removed.. Now your sizing die is set so your case fits the chamber. Things like a dry expander ball dragging out of the case, having your crimp ring set too low can change the fit of your cartridge to the chamber.

Hope this helps, ask more if you don't understand

Pardon me 25-06, but I think you may have missed Phil’s point… as well as what a few other of us have said. The OP is using very fast for Cartridge powders. Even after conceding that his 4064 was at least part of the problem, he switched to H414. And again he’s using 65.7gr, when Hodgdon lists 65 as MAX! And that’s for a Soft Point, not 250FMJ as he loaded. Also, he noted it at .050” OFF the lands, so he’s still seating deep Heavy bullet, Max charge of fast fir cartridge Powder & seated deep is a recipe for pressure.

I’m not sure what reloading manual the OP is using, but it was commented seems the OP is a bit too “comfortable” with doing certain things. Then another comment outlining that “being comfortable”; I.e., mix brass of unknown use, Fast, above max charges, and subsequent pressure issues. Finally, Phil quoted such post and commented that was the reason he stopped commenting. I took that to mean a “washing of hands” so to speak. It’s all too often people have a pressure problems & want to blame their “piece of crap” rifle and send it back.. because there is NO WAY it’s their doing, right? Yet, as always, we get more & more as the thread moves on. Fast powder, MAX & above charges. Unknown, brass, likely the faulted cases being Nickel, which we know to be more brittle & crack easier. (I think a few of us even mentioned that as well.) So, can blame it on headspacing issue alone, but I believe there was a host of issues going on.

25-204 understood what I was saying Dave, first sentence says so. You are correct, my previous post was indeed a "washing of the hands" so to speak, as in the OP's mind was made up which, to me, meant no need for additional comment.

I haven't "full length sized" a belted magnum case since '91 or '92...