poor grouping w/ new Savage 11 Long Range Hunter 308

Well I've encountered a frustrating problem w/ my new Savage 11 Long Range Hunter 308.I cannot get a decent group to establish a zero at 100 yds. I set this rifle up w/ the Bushnell 4200 Elite Tactical on Burris HD Tac rings w a / Picatinny rail. I carefully cleaned the barrel and then I got the rifle onto 4" paper at 50 yards w/ the cheap UMC Remington 'white box' ammo. I cleaned the barrel between every 3 shots and all seemed ok. Then I set up to get my zero at 100 yards w/ the Hornady 150grain Superformance and I was quite dismayed to see a really poor pattern. The groups are totally variable with any where from 1 to 4 MOA. I tried the UMC stuff just to see what it would do and the pattern was about the same. I'm more than willing to try some other ammo but this experience is very unlike anything I've ever experienced before with other rifles. The other rifle I bought to get into this long range thing is a Savage 22-250 heavy and I'm already out to 400 yards and well into developing a data card for it while the 308 is becoming a thorn in my side.
Ive checked all my mounting hardware twice and find nothing there. Worse thing is now I have no confidence in the 308 setup so that's compounding the problem. I've gone thru trying to get it zeroed 2 times now. Any suggestions would be appreciated?

I'd try a box of Federal 168gr Gold Medal Match and see how that does...

+1 on the heavier bullets. That rifle has a one in ten twist and may not like the lighter 308 bullets. 168 should shoot in it or even heavier like 175-180. If you don't reload, federal gold medal match is good ammo to try. Most of the time people point straight to the gun as the culprit when it won't group and usually it just doesn't like the bullets being fed to it. This is why a lot of us on here reload. It's cheaper more consistent ammunition and you can tailor it to a gun or situation.

I had a lot of trouble with the Superformance in 7mm-08 in two guns. I have heard this from others as well. We had 4-5" groups at 100 with two guns that are close to MOA with other factory loads. Try some other factory and see what happens.

I'd also third or fourth the idea of going with heavier bullets. My BVSS has a 1:10" twist barrel....it does really well with Federal Gold Match 175 gr. SMK's and even better with homebrew rounds using 185 gr. Berger VLD / Hunting.

Wayne

is the scope proven? or new? sometimes even good new scopes have problems.

How would you characterize the groups? Random scattering that open and close also at random? If so, I would suspect optics or mounting rather than the rifle itself or ammo.

Faster twist will not make it shoot the lighter bullets appreciably worse anyway. My model 10 .308 has a 1:10 twist and will shoot a 10 shot 1" group with cheap Federal 150gn soft points.

I'd start even simpler. Did you recheck the torque on the stock? Is the barrel touching the stock anywhere? The only problems I've ever encountered with a new Savage has been due to either wrong torque or sequence on the bolts or the forend is touching the barrel.

I had a lot of problems with a model 11 in 308 2 years ago. Caballa's package rifle in laminated stock. Terrible accuracy (2 to 6 inch groups at 100 yards). I free floated the back of the action and that didn't help. Tried two different scopes and also a spare VLP stock that I had in the closet. I finally called Savage and they had UPS pick it up. They kept it for 2 months. When I got it back it had a different barrel and a "custom" crown. Crown looked like a home gunsmith did it using some form of a ball shaped object chucked up in a drill. Crown was not blued (bare steel). It shoots several loads into about an inch. I am a happy customer.

Keith

[quote=shooter98 ]
I'd start even simpler. Did you recheck the torque on the stock? Is the barrel touching the stock anywhere? The only problems I've ever encountered with a new Savage has been due to either wrong torque or sequence on the bolts or the forend is touching the barrel.
[/quote
The barrel feels like it is very,very close to the forend. When I slide an index card from the muzzle towards the chamber, there is a pretty tight area that I can slide the card thru but it sure is a whole lot tighter than either my model 10 22-250 heavy barrel or my model 93 22 WMR heavy barrel. I'm thinking pretty hard about telling the dealer I bought the rifle from to send it to their gunsmith to look at it. I have no prior experience with making any kind of torque or stock adjustments. -Andy

I would swap scopes, if that didn't fix it, I would try different ammo. I seriously doubt your gun is shooting poorly due to twist. Have not seen a fast twist make a gun shoot poor yet, but I have seen a slow twist cause problems.

I always take this route,stock, scope, ammo, barrel last, it works for me. I seen a number of postings on other sites
about the high performance ammo poor groups, have not tried myself.

New guy here.

I hope I don't ruffle any feathers with one of my first post.

I've been gearing up to buy a rifle in the 300 WSM caliber ever since I got my tax refund. Since I've gone back to self-employment, this is probably the last refund check I'll ever get from Uncle Sam so I thought I'd splurge.

I had narrowed my choices down to either the Savage LRH or the Tikka. I recently purchased my first Savaged based rifle and it seemed like an all right design. (stevens 200 in 223) I guess I may have been spoiled by the smoothness of the Tikkas cause this little stevens just doesn't compare in that way but, the accuracy is definitely good.

Now having read about the problems with "grouping" posted by this Savage owner I'm leaning more toward the Tikka. My reason for considering the Savage LRH was because I'm a DIY kind of shooter and Savage has alot to offer in that respect. I hate paying good money to a good gunsmith for something I could just as easily do myself.

The Tikka's, on the other hand, shoot like a dream right out of the box. The shortcomings of the Tikka's are that, other than replacing the stock, I'd have to pay someone to remove the barrel, make me a new barrel, and replace the barrel if or when the time came.

It sounds like the cause of the "poor grouping" may very well be something simple. It's figuring out exactly what that simple-cause is that makes it difficult.

At any rate, I sure hated to read about this little set back. I'm starting to tip in the direction of the Tikkas.

I already own two Tikkas. (308 and 22-250) Both are extremely accurate with minimal load work up.

I'll hold out a little longer and follow this thread some more. Hopefully our fellow Savage owner will find the cause of his rifle's "poor grouping" and tip me back in the direction of the Long Range Hunter. Although I'm not crazy about the design of the muzzle brake on the LRH, I like the fact that the LRH already has a muzzle brake installed. I'd have to install one on the Tikka.

I know there are many other Savage owners that can boast of stellar performance from their guns right from the start; so, letting the performance on just one single gun dictate my decision between a Savage or a Tikka isn't very logical.

This may be the last major gun purchase I make for a while so, I want to get the most bang for my buck. Since I'm torn between the two, even something as illogical and "poor groupings" from an individual rifle can have an effect.


HollowPoint

I would agree that its not the twist. My savage is a 10 twist also and it will shoot just about anything. I load 125gr for groundhogs and have used the 155 nosler along with the 168gr matchkings that produced groups that blew my mind.. It is allmost boring its so accurate.!! dont give up on your rig, +1 with checking the scope. Ive had a name brand scope that wouldnt adjust that was new.. good luck, let us know what you find out.

It's not alway factory rifles that show lackluster performance. I built a 6.5X47 Lapua using a Criterion/Krieger heavy stainless barrel. To date my groups have been nothing to brag about and I handload and shoot a lot of bench rest testing. With other calibers and barrels, I can shoot nice small groups usually right from the get go but this barrel is taxing my abilities and patience.

GaCop, been there with other guns in the past. I would sell the barrel and move on. At least with a Savage, you are not stuck with some expensive rebarrel job.

Hollow Point,

Sounds like you need to get a Savage. All you have to do is send it back to Savage, or switch out the factory barrel yourself if it just won't shoot. That's assuming you've eliminated all the other possible causes mentioned in this thread that might explain the poor grouping with the Savage in question. Now, if you get an out or the box bum shooting Titka, Remington, Ruger, .....you'll be providing a livelyhood for some lucky gunsmith. I just learned my lesson the hard way.

I had a 116 in 300RUM that wouldnt group. Turned out the inletting for the recoil lug was too far back. A gap of .006 or .007 between the lug and the stock. The stock bolts were acting as a recoil lug. A little Devcon plastic steel and it will group just under 1" now.

OK, we checked the torque on the action hold downs and found them all to be @ 40. We took a little material off the left side of the forend and a bit off a small part of the lower molding. At this point the barrel is not touching the stock. So it's time to shoot it again & see how things go.
Also I have this small pearl of wisdom to offer to the fellow trying to decide whether to go with a Savage or a Tikka: I remain confident that I made the right move in purchasing the Savage Long Range Hunter because it's like the IH tractors I rely on to do chores & raise feed on my Dairy farm - they don't require a rocket scientist to look at them and figure out what's wrong, and the parts are not expensive. Maybe you have a great, devoted, and experienced Tikka dealer that you have an excellent relationship with and who will solve any unexpected issues that may arise from your firearm, free of charge, but if you don't you may find you are better off w/ a Ford F 150 that almost everybody understands.(Just my small businessman's 2 cents :))

jpdown, chowder:

You'll get no argument from me. The points you've made are the very points I was eluding to in my initial reply.

I'm well aware that we pays our money and we takes our chances regardless of what brand name we buy.

It will be good to hear that everything worked out well with this LRH. I've owned my share of guns that required a little reverse-engineering to figure out what was wrong with them.

HollowPoint

My problem ended up being the scope. As soon as I replaced the faulty one, groups immediately dropped below MOA.

Well... all I had to put through the rifle today was a couple boxes of 168 grain Hornady Superformance (need to get a hold of some Fed GMM 168/175). First 3 rounds made a hole thru the bull the size of a nickel. After that I wasn't quite as impressed by the groups but I'm also realizing that it's a simple fact that; a.) I don't normally shoot this many larger caliber rounds at one time, and b.) I probably need to get some advice on setting up the cheek piece/ eye relief relationship because there does seem to be a critical issue involving cheek weld, sight picture and right hand torque influencing my groups.Anybody got some good pointers about cheek piece adjustment, etc?

P.S. Hollow Point; you seem to be a much more knowledgeable shooter than myself as well as a thoughtful and witty dude- thanks for your input & I apologize for being a bit prickly. -Andy

No offense taken Sir.

I'm not that knowledgeable but, with respect to the setbacks you're LRH's been displaying, I can tell you that
I've been there and done that.

The only difference was the brand name of the rifle. (Remington 700 BDL in 17 Remington cal.)

Only after changing the scope, pillar bedding, floating the barrel and changing the trigger did it finally start shooting
the way we rifle shooter dream of having our rifles shoot.

With this rifle I can now shoot the fore-skin off a sexually aroused mosquito at 200 yards. If I were shooting incendiary loads out of this rifle, I could cauterize the wound and still leave that mosquito with a fully functional erection.

OK, that's an over the top exaggeration but, you know what I mean. It always feels good to have an accurate shooting rifle. It makes it feel like you made an excellent choice when you bought the rifle and your money was well spent.

These frustrating setbacks that we get from time to time; the ones that have us spending alot of additional time or money trying to figure them out can be some real weeny-shrinkers.

When we finally figure them out though, it makes for some good story telling around the camp fire.

HollowPoint

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GaCop

My problem ended up being the scope. As soon as I replaced the faulty one, groups immediately dropped below MOA.

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GaCop I am glad to hear that, I was hoping it wasn't the barrel. I ordered a 6BR in CBI and yours was the first one I have heard wouldn't shoot, and I was starting to doubt my purchase decision. Glad to hear it was the scope and not the barrel.

Chowder, glad to hear your prob is looking up, those bigger calibers can take a toll off the bench and affet your shooting. I have discovered that when I take my 30-06 to the range I better shoot it last, of my groups with my smaller guns will not be as good that day.

"Chowder", how heavy is the barrel? A medium weight sporter? With three shots shooting tight and then groups opening up, heat may be the problem with a lighter barrel. For a hunting barrel, three shot groups are the norm before barrel heat blows the groups all to h-ll.

Got some good pointers over on 'Long Range Hunting', including 2 videos on scope setup/ cheek piece adjustment/ natural point of aim,etc.Also a Great article on what can happen to a shooter who only sights in using a bench rest position and switch's to a field position - I was simply not aware of the possibility that you can look thru different portions of the scope from different angles even after taking a 100 deer or so over the years, sure feels humbling!. I'll put the links on here at some point, pushed for time right now. I'm kind of feeling like I've opened Pandora's box by having some trouble with this rifle but I sure am opening my eyes to some stuff I really should know something about!
Anyway, I'm going to readjust the scope to my natural rifle hold position and then readjust the cheek piece to line up my eye with the scope, re level the scope and then shoot again with some Fed GMM and see where I'm at. There may well still be an issue w/ the Bushnell 4200 Tactical that I bought for this rifle that still needs to be resolved, but I think the biggest problem at this point is with the 'nut behind the stock' ;D . -Andy

I would bet 10 dollars to a donut that it is the accustock alignment/tightness. You can look at one and see if it is right screws need to be fairly tight but not cranked down, looking from the front, down the barrel, you should have a good bit of clearance on the bottom and sides between the barrel and stock, and it should be the same amount on all sides. Sounds simple but it can be a pain to get it right until you have tinkered with it a bit. Have you taken the stock off for any reason, to adjust the trigger maybe? Either way I have seen a few that came from the factory canted in some way and needed the stock screws adjusted and the stock realigned. These guns generally shoot extremely well. I would bet yours will too. I got my 6.5-284 all out of whack for about 3 months and it would not shoot well at all.

I did completely readjust the scope and cheek piece to fit me and then releveled the scope,etc and the whole package felt much better but the rifle still would not group well, so I shot 2, 3 round groups w/ both the Fed and Hornaday Match grade ammo w/ the Model 11 long range hunter and the groups are still poor. So I removed the Bushnell 4200 Elite Tactical and the rings and rail from the Model 11 308 LRH. I did shoot 3 groups with my Mueller equipped Model 12 22-250 just to make sure that my portable bench or some other thing wasn't behind the model 11's poor grouping problem b4 I remove the Mueller scope from the 22-250 to put on the model 11 to see what gives. The 2 groups from the 22-250 were roughly .5 MOA or less so I would say that Mueller scope has no issues.
Kind of hate to take the scope off of the 22-250 to check the 308 to find out if the problem is coming from the Bushnell 4200 but I don't have any other good choices.
What's anybody's guess as to how much I will have readjust my data table for the 22-250 when I finally get my Mueller back on it? Thanks, -Andy

P.S. I can't back out the allen heads in the rings for the Mueller because the cheap little allen wrench strips itself, the set screw heads themselves look fine. I did order an 'accurizing' torque wrench set from Midway, hoping the bits that come with it are better quality than the wrench that came w/ the rings. Any other suggestions?