Vintage .303 Savage Cartridge Data

Printable View

09-16-2023, 08:55 AM
Bryan Austin

Vintage .303 Savage Cartridge Data
I was able to pick up a decent REM-UMC .303 Savage box with a few cartridges. I decided to dissect one and see what we had to talk about.

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false

K10O ??, K=1919, 10=day, O=July
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false

194.2gr (195gr) JSP bullet. Handloading manuals call for a 190gr and a 196gr
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false

THE POWDER
Found inside was 25.3gr of "Lightning" smokeless powder. Powder grains measure .0725" dia. and .0255" thick. Sharpshooter is basically the same measurements but calls for a much different charge because it is a faster burning powder. (Sharpshooter is a faster burning powder than Lightning). Do not confuse the same charge for the 44-40 as being the same as the Lightning charge for the .303 Savage.
- 1926 - 12.5gr of Sharpshooter only used for 150gr bullet.
- 1937 - 13gr to 17.6gr of Sharpshooter used with the 190gr JSP between 1,335fps to 1,695fps @ between 17,600lbs and 33,000lbs respectfully. Right there is the difference between the need for normal barrels and the need for special barrels as far as velocity and pressures are concerned.
1937 Sharpe's data - 25.8gr of Lightning with a 190gr JSP 1,990fps @ 41,000lbs.

Thus this REM-UMC is a full bore load for the .303 Savage chambered rifles of which needed special everything!!!

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false

The primers are well past the patent war dates, but appears to be of the 1882 Hobbs patent.
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false

I figured any inaccuracies would be quickly corrected in a reply!

THANKS!!
09-16-2023, 10:48 PM
Dave Hoback

Always fun tearing into history. Thank you for opening one up & sharing. Learning the history of our rifles & cartridges is fun. Not hard to see why the 303 became obsolete. Even in it’s day it was pretty anemic. The 30-40 Krag, already around when the 303 was introduced, & the 30-30 Winchester of the same year were quite a bit more powerful. Of course the 30-30 is the winner, being it’s stood the test of time. Honestly, I’m surprised the 303 was as popular as it was. Failing with the military as well.

I do enjoy research & knowing the history of our cartridges of yester-year. However, I simply have have no interest in using them. Quite abysmal performance compared to anything from the last 70 years or more! Much more in fact, as the model 99 was chambered for the 300 Savage in 1921, a vastly superior cartridge.
09-17-2023, 03:29 PM
Bryan Austin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Not hard to see why the 303 became obsolete. Even in it’s day it was pretty anemic.
The 30-40 Krag, already around when the 303 was introduced, & the 30-30 Winchester of the same year were quite a bit more powerful.

Just out of curiosity, why exactly did it become obsolete? I honestly do not know.
The 30-40 being more powerful, but I was under the impression that the 303 was second, followed slightly by the 30-30.

(1892) 30-40 Krag - 40,000cup, 2,000fps (W.A.-.30 Cal. powder)
(1899) 30 Army - 2,200fps (W.A.-.30 Cal. powder)

(1895) 303 Savage - 41,000cup, 2,090fps (Laflin & Rand Lightning powder)
(1895) 30-30 - 1,900fps

(1903) 30-03 - 44,000cup, 2,200fps (W.A.-.30 Cal. powder)
(1906) 30-06 - 51,000cup, 2,700fps (MR20 powder, 1909 Military powder)
09-17-2023, 04:52 PM
Dave Hoback

Well, I think it was more just the time frame & the rifles involved. Remember, just a short few years later high power bolt guns & cartridges with much higher BC bullets were introduced. So really they all became obsolete! Except, of course, for the 30-30 Winchester. And why prey tell was that? Among other things I’m sure, but the 30-30 continuing not only survival but exceeding popularity, must owe it’s gratitude to the rifle which made it famous. A rifle STILL in production today and just as popular as ever! Of course, the legendary Model ‘94.

As far as power, I’m sure there are dissenting views & articles everywhere supporting each view, Lol! But I’ve seen the 393 Savage with a 170gr. @ 2090fps (just as you have in your post). And a 30-30 Winchester using a 170gr RN @ 2227fps. Putting it along the lines of the Krag. Another tidbit looking at the giant 30Cal Cartridge photo below, that while the 30-40 dwarfs both the 30-30 Winchester & 303 Savage, the 30-30 Win still holds a slight case advantage in the powder column. It also had a 46,000psi MAX pressure limit compared to the 393’s 41,000psi. Not a lot… but still more.

https://i.ibb.co/dKKNn0y/11-F64950-5...-A40168275.jpg
09-17-2023, 07:08 PM
Bryan Austin

iT LOOKS LIKE THE 303 WAS TONED DOWN CONSIDERABLY BY 1907?

Stupid capslock. Got lots of questions coming at ya soon!!
09-17-2023, 10:21 PM
Dave Hoback

Well, to be fair it was only chambered in one rifle. And while it was Savage’s Big-Dog for a spell, that was soon ended. Below is a great article on the 303. Even has some quite STOUT reloading info. They are showing a 190gr @ over 2200fps through the model 99’s 26” barrel.

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/3...ition%20in%20.
09-18-2023, 12:59 PM
Bryan Austin

How much did a Winchester 94 30-30 cost in 1899 compared to a Model 99 303?
09-18-2023, 07:02 PM
Dave Hoback

I don’t have any clue how much they cost then. I doubt either one cost all that much. Could likely find the answer online. But the cost of what things were just isn’t of any interest to me. I’m only concerned with what things cost now, and what parts will cost in the future. “Sigh”
09-21-2023, 08:44 AM
charlie b

I suspect the Savage cost a bit more than the 94. Keep in mind that $1 was a lot of money back then. Also consider that Win had many more years of sales to bolster their reputation. Anyone who wanted a caliber more potent than the .30-30 could pick up a 95. So, unless the Savage offered a lot of extra then it was in a tough place.

Why is the 94 still made today? Same with Marlin and Henry? Some people just came to love the lever action as a faster alternative to a bolt gun, without the issues of a gas or recoil semi-auto. Watching a capable shooter with a lever gun it is very quick to operate, especially when kneeling or standing. There are still a huge number of hunters who will shoot nothing but a lever gun. I remember that the sales of lever guns tailed off in the 70's. Then came the SASS and popularity went back up again. BPCR has also fueled the sales.

I have tried to like lever guns. Had two and ended up selling them soon after. Just did not do anything for me. I'd rather have a gas or bolt gun.
09-21-2023, 04:45 PM
Bryan Austin
Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie b

I suspect the Savage cost a bit more than the 94. Keep in mind that $1 was a lot of money back then. Also consider that Win had many more years of sales to bolster their reputation. Anyone who wanted a caliber more potent than the .30-30 could pick up a 95. So, unless the Savage offered a lot of extra then it was in a tough place.

Why is the 94 still made today? Same with Marlin and Henry? Some people just came to love the lever action as a faster alternative to a bolt gun, without the issues of a gas or recoil semi-auto. Watching a capable shooter with a lever gun it is very quick to operate, especially when kneeling or standing. There are still a huge number of hunters who will shoot nothing but a lever gun. I remember that the sales of lever guns tailed off in the 70's. Then came the SASS and popularity went back up again. BPCR has also fueled the sales.

I have tried to like lever guns. Had two and ended up selling them soon after. Just did not do anything for me. I'd rather have a gas or bolt gun.

Thanks for that explanation Charlie.....basically what I was kind of thinking myself. Based on the cost I figured it was only an option for rich sports hunters.

Me, I'll stick to my Winchester 73' until I can play with the 303 some.

I was looking at some prices from back around 1895/1899. A basic rifle and 1,000 rounds of ammo would cost about...

ng a $1 was basically a day’s wages….
Winchester 73'/Winchester 94'/.303 Savage
- $35.50 – .32 Black Powder
- $38.50 – .44 Black Powder
- $46.50 – .38-55 Black Powder
- $60.00 – .25-35 Smokeless
- $61.00 – .303 Smokeless (unconfirmed)
- $61.00 – .30-30 Smokeless
  
  https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/co...&upscale=false