Printable View
Let me try this again.
Don't know why go daddy block my last post about this.
Anyway, after shooting my new 110 Hunter in .223, it took forever to clean the copper fouling and never did get it all. Properly cleaned before shooting, then Properly broke in.
Decided to bore scope it.
Well the bore looks like D4 cat tracks.
So it goes back tomorrow, I asked Savage to install a new barrel. Lady said turn around time is 5-8 weeks.
Pic of bore
Yes, I found that quite odd with the Go Daddy blockage, LOL!! Anyhoo..
If you were to do a search you would find threads almost identical yours posted about every 1-3 months by NEW Savage owners with Bore Scopes, at least as far back as I’ve been here (2016). Probably back to the beginning in 2006. The more important question is how many does it shoot? Sure, cleaning a barrel can be tedious. And that does add time. You could try another Copper Solvent. I assure you, it will all come out with some doing. And that will lesson as you shoot it. Barrels are a consumable resource. I recommend you simply shoot it until accuracy fades then get a good aftermarket barrel. Moot point I guess since you made up your mind. Here’s the point: The new barrel you get from Savage is very likely to have those same machining marks in the bore. Good luck though.
Perhaps one day we will live in a society where each barrel is judged not by the marks in their bores, but by the content of their shooting character, LOL!
I almost bought a bore scope once. Then I realized I wouldn`t know what the hell I was looking at anyway, so I`ve just concentrated on how the gun shoots. I don`t care what it looks like in there if the bullets are hitting the target where I want them to. Well, most of the time.
First problem??? BORE SCOPE!! You've got 5 shots going in the same hole and your new BORE SCOPE tells you your barrel is junk???
You've cleaned the barrel, it still looks like chicken scratch, copper up the wazoo but you're still shooing bug holes. WHO you gunna believe??
Same thing with a Chronograph. How fast?? Never seen anybody out run one of my shots. And you CAN clean your barrel too much.
Don't sweat the small stuff. ;)
OP,
As has been said, that particular pattern of machine marks is pretty common on Savage barrels. It MAY or MAY NOT affect the way it shoots. My first Savage was worse than that, HOWEVER, it did affect the way it shot. It would shoot the first 3 shots almost touching when the barrel was clean, raw steel. But, as you continued to shoot it, the group pattern got steadily larger as you went. It never stopped growing in size. I would be at 1 foot by 1 foot patterns by the time I gave up in disgust at around 25-30 shots.
And it would take forever to get all the copper out during cleaning. Nothing helped the bore "smooth out". I tried bore paste, the "polish" as well as the course grit. I even tried fire lapping the bore. Nada. I did find that the method of putting a plug (sold in various parent case types by Sinclair's) in the chamber and literally filling the bore with solvent and letting it stand for a day was the best way to get the copper out.
This was on a BVSS in 22-250. I bought it for a prairie dog gun, which means lots of shooting during field days, and needing to clean it in "field conditions" if it needed cleaning. Anyway, I finally gave up on it and swapped out the barrel for a new McGowen barrel (this was the first one I ever did, Jim at Northland walked me through it via phone).
OP, I will tell you this, IF you send your rifle back to Savage, the first thing they are going to do is "test shoot" it with a 3 shot group.
If those 3 shots "meet" their accuracy "criteria", they will send it back to you and say the rifle is fine.
My advice is, If the guns shoots good (holes touching) and STAYS THAT WAY, I would just shoot it. If the gun's accuracy gets worse the more you shoot it, I would just rebarrel the rifle with a drop in replacement barrel.
Nothing I can add that hasn't already been said, except to say your barrel condition is normal.
I like my borescope but I don't use it to determine how effective my cleaning methods are. I use it to monitor bore condition when a rifle is shooting good, and then again when accuracy falls off so I have relatively good indication of barrel equilibrium.
You can't see a carbon ring without a borescope and that is something, IMO, you do want to stay ahead of.
This post should make people think. And Mikie, stating the problem being a bore scope. So many shooters now buy these little scope tools having no idea what they are looking at. While the marks aren’t pretty, they just don’t matter, unless it’s cause for accuracy inconsistency. Even then, if a new rifle is shooting inconsistently, the bore is the last thing to suspect. This is an area where our modern world, with easy & inexpensive access to a borescope has failed us! It’s led to this new group of shooters who trash their barrel before ever shooting a single shot! And in this scenario with several very knowledgeable voices, and a venue with the most Savage rifle information anywhere online…. I’m still very skeptical the OP is even listening, and will still likely send it back to Savage because he’s convinced himself it’s a problem. Unfortunately, when that seed is planted in a man’s brain, it typically will grow regardless of facts. It’s just our nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeytider
I remember one guy who thought he had a custom barrel with ratchet rifling.
Lol! Pure Customisize!
Yep, the Op is listening and yes it is already is on its way back. While I do appreciate everyone's input, that bore is unacceptable to me. I did come up with a load that shot well but after only a few groups accuracy started to suffer. That is why I scoped it. Copper fouling was bad after less than 30 rounds and took a lot of elbow grease to clean out. I have owned several Savage rifles in different calibers and this is the only one that had a bore like this. I only had one barrel like this and it was a Lother Walther, which they agreed was not acceptable and replaced it. Pretty sure Savage will replace the barrel as the lady I talked to, saw the pics I sent and agreed it looked like bad chatter.
Anyway, looking forward to getting it back, in the mean time I may buy another Savage to keep me busy.
It is NOT CHATTER, it is not just savage that has these reamer marks. That is what they are. It shows the feed rate that the reamer was sent in at. It is reamed after drilling. Some manufactures lap the bore after reaming but most don't. As you can see. What I would be worried about is if the marks come and go away. That means you have inconsistency in the bore. That will effect how it shoots.
Savage has a better reputation for shooting well over a lot of other brands. But I have had 4 of them that were 3-4moa shooters and they were the ones that got torn apart to be project guns. I expect a factory gun to shoot like dog poop. Then if it doesn't then I got a good one.
And don't bother cleaning the copper out. It will shoot better if you leave it alone. Use a powder solvent and that is all that is needed for a long time. A very clean barrel can shoot like dog poop. Most like to shoot with a consistent layer of copper and fouling.
With my rifles, which are hunting rifles but which I enjoy at the range, where a hunting load hits first shot out of a cold, clean barrel is of GREAT interest to me. Rounds after that are gravy. I`m on the cusp of spending close to $1400 on a Savage factory rifle and I damn sure do not expect it to shoot like " dog poop "! My shooting sessions already have one source of " dog poop " already in play ( my marksmanship ability at times ). Certainly can`t take two!Quote:
Originally Posted by tomme boy
Should I post a pic of my 12FV barrel? Hmm...
This is what I use my borescope for most of the time. I work part time at a little gunsmith shop and cheap borescopes have brought us a lot of business and some pretty nice take off barrels to boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilC
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomme boy
May not be the proper term, but since Lother Walther and Savage techs called it chatter thats what I'm calling it.
Do you really buy a new gun expecting it to shoot bad? Sorry, but I expect what I spend my money on to be decent quality.
Why should companies care about QC, if the end user will settle for what ever they get.
Also have to disagree about leaving the copper fouling alone for a long time. A little fouling yes, but a lot will deteriorate accuracy. Again accuracy started to suffer after about 30 rounds.
Yikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hylander
They call it that because they have to be able to talk to the lowest IQ on the phone and can understand what they are saying. If they replace the barrel don't expect it to be in any other shape than the one you sent in. As long as the reamer marks are not raised it will not matter if they are there or not. Savage barrels and others come around and start shooting better after a few hundred rounds. Why? because they need to be broken in right. Lets hear how you did that. It might tell us something useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hylander
These cheap bore scopes are really starting to wear thin on lots of manufactures. I have spoke to several barrel manufacturers that are going to be modifying their warranties because of them. Right now they are just replacing stuff because they don't want to deal with people that don't have a clue to what they are talking about.
Good luck with your new barrel. And this time make sure you are not shooting Wolf steel case ammo. It might shoot better.
While I don't disagree on what Savage might do, those are not reamer marks.
Note that the lands and grooves are marked equally. A reamer, such as one used in final dimensioning of the bore, would only mark the lands of the barrel. These marks had to be made during the rifling process. The use of 'button' rifling means all the grooves are cut in one pass of the broach. These marks are typical of a broach that is worn, used with too little lube, pushed too hard/fast, etc. The broach is rotated during use, but, it is rotated to match the rifling twist. And I also call those 'chatter' marks, which I learned from the master machinist who first taught me use of metal working tools.
Didn't realize I was lowest IQ calling them.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomme boy
I am not new to firearms, shooting or working on them, I do it day 5 days a week. I have a friend that is a gun smith, I personally know a master gun smith. I shoot a cast silhouette match once a month. Yes, I do have a clue what they are talking about. Yes, I do expect a better barrel when I get it back. Did I say I used Wolf ammo? Pretty sure I did not say what ammo I used. I said I properly broke in the barrel. You act like I'm trying to bash Savage and that I'm stupid, you are wrong on both accounts. You just seem bent on discrediting me for some reason.
Just so you know, ammo was Federal AE 55gr. For about the first 20 rounds, then hand loads.
Not going to detail my break-in procedure, but it takes about an hour, slow fire and lots of cleaning.
Anyway, heading to range now to do some shooting as the weather is great.
Hylander, easy man. Take a breath. Tommy wasn’t referring to your intellectual capacity in a diminutive manner. He was simply stating certain truths. It’s not that anyone is discounting you specifically.. it’s like I said previously, we’ve seen posts identical to yours with almost clock-like repetition. And all the stories generally follow the same guidelines. “Person gets new savage.. decides to borescope… sees marks… convinces themselves barrel is trash & commits to sending back.” And then when we here tell them these marks are common, and generally don’t hurt accuracy, their story tends to change. It morphs into it had bad accuracy all the while! (Even though accuracy was never mentioned in their initial post.) Now you did complain of Copper fouling, yet I haven’t met a barrel yet that was “easy” for Copper to clean out 100%. And barrel I have, I can clean until it’s shiny new! Let it sit a night and put a solvent patch down it next day. Some fouling will still come out.
All I can say is good luck, and hope the replacement looks better to you. But regardless, I would actually shoot at least 100yds then test it… BEFORE you condemn the barrel.
Dave,
Respectfully, you are telling the wrong poster to calm down and take a breath.
I don't have a dog in this fight either way. However tomme is just flat out over the top with his attitude. No way he "doesn't know" how he's coming across.
Not the first time I've encountered this exact same phenomenon since I've been back here. Some kind of cultural change in the forums over the last few years? Honestly, I don't care, it doesn't impress.
Not everyone who posts here is a "noob". Like Hylander, I myself also have tons of real world experience in this area. Been handloading since 1975, worked in the gun retail business for 20-ish years, shot competitively in service rifle, sillywet, and some benchrest, best friend was a gunsmith and master machinist. We shouldn't have to give our entire life's dissertation when we post to be "spared" the flaming of any certain "Savageshooters.com Guru" (whether they are, or just think they are a guru).
I first joined in 2009. I can remember when we could post any threads relative to Savage rifles (or shooting, or reloading, etc), WITHOUT receiving a childish rant or lecture in return.
In my book, "tomme" owes him an apology for his childish rant.
Ok.. haaaave fun with that. http://www.savageshooters.com/blob:h...b-8de4ef538aab:tea:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpoke Slim
Good on ya! Post how it went.Quote:
Anyway, heading to range now to do some shooting as the weather is great.
Hey Dave,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
I'm calm, not upset or anything with anyone.
I was just answering Tommy point by point.
Twice in his post he did sound condescending.
But again, not upset at all.
Today's range session was not with the Savage but it was an Awesome range morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbm
Looking forward to getting the Savage back to the range but that won't be for about 8 weeks.
HA! Probably still going to be sooner than receiving my new Criterion barrel! Just hit 4 week mark this past Wednesday. It was 12-20 weeks when I ordered. Patience is a virtue.
Yikes,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
I got a Remage Criterion Barrel awhile back.
I was lucky, waited less than a month.
Got it from NSS
What is a "master gun smith"?? I know some really really good gunsmiths- but never heard them call themselves master smiths..... Is there an industry standard to become one or is it marketing by a specific institute that when you finish their course you are now a "master"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hylander
So there are your average gun smith's and there are guys like Tussey, Turnbull, Huntington etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whynot
No they don't call themselves that, it is just a term.
Yup.. I got one from James at NSS as well. But I ordered the barrel in the cartridge & extras I wanted. Not what NSS wanted to sell to me & happened to have in stock. So for that, it’s 12-20 weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hylander
Let me see if I can explain what you are seeing.
Do you know what a nut and bolt is?
You see the threading on and in each one?
Think of what you are seeing as the nut. The rate that the drill and reamer are sent in are the threads. Without lapping before the rifling is done, every defect will be transferred to the bore and grove. It is a cost cutting step to not lap the barrel.
This is the customer service explanation talking to a normal customer.
No. The defect is not transferred to the grooves unless the defects are deeper than the grooves, which is not the case here. This is chatter from the broach.
Talk to anyone that makes barrels that lap them. This is what they are removing. Usually it is done on a Sunnen lapping machine. But some are also hand lapped. It is not the BUTTON that savage uses. They dont broach cut the rifling. They button rifle all of their barrels. The broach would cut away the marks as you say but not in this case as they dont cut the rifling. I have been in the metal forming and machining trade since 98. I know first hand how these processes work and are done. Just because you know someone that calls himself a "master" does not mean you understand how things are done.
Hey! I knew a Master once! He was 100%, positively a MASTER!!
BATER, that is!:cool:
Ok,
Can we just let this thread die.
Since this thread was started by me just showing a pic of what I consider an unexceptable bore and unexceptable quality control, which it is.
This thread is becoming an I know more than you thread, so can we agree to disagree and close the thread.
OK I contacted frank Green from Bartlein Barrels. Here is what he has to say.
Yes, no and maybe so......
Yes the marks in the original pictures in this thread are bore reamer marks. The deeper the bore reamer marks and when you pull or push a button thru the bore it just presses the marks down into the grooves. The rougher the marks the more the barrel is going to foul. The marks are in the opposite direction of bullet travel. So basically it will act like a file.
Not all barrel makers pre lap after bore reaming. I know of some gun makers/barrel makers that are so cheap they drill and just pull the button thru.
We pre lap before rifling (after reaming) and finish lap after rifling. All we do is cut rifling.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
And a second message asking about why they are on the bore and grove.
That is one of the biggest misconceptions that the button rifling will displace and totally get rid of the tooling marks left over from the reamer.
One phrase that is used is that button rifling "will iron out the marks" It might to some extent but not always.
It goes back to.... Paying attention to the finish your getting out of the bore reamer. It's a big deal. At least to us it is. The nicer the finish the bore reamer leaves the less work you have to do to prelap the bore prior to rifling.
Here are a couple more pic's. The right pic shows the bore finish prior to a button being pulled thru. That finish isn't the greatest if that got bore reamed. Look close at that pic and you can see the bore reamer marks on the top of the lands.
Also you can see how the steel gets displaced and the stress it causes from the button going into the blank on the face of the barrel blank. Now try and imagine the stress induced into the blank. A good button maker will restress relieve the material after button rifling...and yes they are places that don't do it at all. Again residual stress in the blank no barrel maker can measure for.
For a rough number....a 30cal barrel that is suppose to have a .308" groove size...they might have to pull something like a .3115" button thru the blank. They get a different heat lot and that same button might not work and they might have to go to a .3120" diameter button. Also if they grab a different diameter blank that will play hell with the bore sizes. Going lets say from a 1.280" diameter blank to a 1.4" diameter blank the heavier wall thickness will make the bore/grooves tighten up and the opposite will happen if you go to a smaller diameter blank...the bore will get bigger.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/kljnkxY.jpg[/IMG]
I have used a few reamers in my day. Both tapered and straight.. The most impressive thing about Savages reamers are how they make "non chatter" in the grooves and the bore. I like how the barrels are not inspected before they rifle them. Seems like a crazy way to do business. Scrap them, keep machining them, and let the customer find them. Still blows me away how they ream the grooves. Newfangled metal working.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Hylander