Planning a New Build - Feedback and Advice Welcome

I'm in Canada and our lovely government recently banned the semi auto I used to consider my well rounded multipurpose gun so I'm building a "new" rifle to sort-of replace it. I'm planning something accurate, reliable, light enough to carry around, with good ergonomics, and capable of long strings of fire. I'm thinking ranges of 50-800 yards. Not a long range rig, but it will see some mid range target shooting. It could also see some close range hunting shots in dense woods.

I'm going to use the action and trigger from a Savage 110 Tactical (short action 308W), because I already have one broken in that I like and I know it's reliable. I'm going to use an optic I already have as well, an Athlon Ares BTR 2.5-15 which is relatively lightweight for the style of optic, although not the lightest. I want to keep it under 10lbs (including scope) but my current build list is going to put it a little over.. I could use some tips on cutting a little bit of weight. Also please chime in if you have an actual measured weight for something I've more or less guessed at.

Specs:
Short action receiver, bolt, and trigger from 110 Tactical - 32oz (based loosely on numbers I've found floating around this site)
EGW 20moa rail - 2.5oz (according to EGW website)
Athlon Ares BTR 2.5-15x50 - 27oz (as per Athlon website)
Burris Signature XTR Rings - 7oz (weighed myself)
18" CarbonSix barrel, 308Win - 39 oz (using CarbonSix barrel weight estimating tool)
Muzzle Brake - 2oz (weighed myself)
MDT LSS XL Gen 2 Chassis - 29oz (MDT lists as 1.6-2lbs depending on inlet, took the middle number)
MDT Skeleton Lite Buttstock - 26oz (quoted from MDT's Q&A on their website)
Grip (either Ergo or MDT) - 5oz?
MDT polymer magazine - 4oz (weighed myself)

That puts the total at 173.5oz... 13.5oz over the 10lb goal weight.

I thought about using a KRG Bravo instead of the MDT which would save roughly 12oz, but no left hand savage inlet available.
I could use the MDT LSS (not XL) which is listed as 1.4-1.6lbs and would save roughly 5oz, but I don't like the really short forend. I'd like to get a bipod a little closer to the muzzle and give myself more to grab on to when shooting offhand.
Leaving it in the Accustock could be an option, but I've modified it a bit and made a custom molded grip, added some QD sling cups, etc, and it weighs 3lbs 5.8oz with the bottom metal. I like that the chassis systems offer more adaptability for basically the same weight. With a chassis I could quickly attach an arca rail and some Mlok weights for a PRS match, add a "NV Hood" to give me full barrel coverage so I can use a J grip for 3gun without burning my thumb (without all these newly banned semi's I don't know what 3gun is going to look like), etc. I don't compete in anything enough to justify specialized rifles for every discipline, so having something adaptable is kind of nice.

Other places to save weight? I read somewhere on this forum that the big BA bolt handle weighs 5.9oz and I could replace it with something titanium/aluminum/carbon fiber to save a few oz? It's not worth the weight savings to put a smaller hunting style bolt handle on it to me. Any rings that are lighter but still solid? Perhaps I should invest in a lighter optic - anything significantly lighter that still offers FFP, good tracking, zero stop, etc?

Let me spin you in a different direction if I may. Years ago I worked on
what we called the poor mans assault rifle. Basically it was the 760
Remington game master pump converted to use a BAR magazine. Back
then the only AR available to the public was made by Colt. Now that
being said, and if the day came I had to give up my auto loaders, Id
move to a platform such a Troys pump actions. Or even find what legal
means you have to remove your gas tube, and convert to a side cocker.

I guess I would ask, why do you want to keep it under 10lb?

Looks like an interesting project.

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Originally Posted by Fuj'

Let me spin you in a different direction if I may. Years ago I worked on
what we called the poor mans assault rifle. Basically it was the 760
Remington game master pump converted to use a BAR magazine. Back
then the only AR available to the public was made by Colt. Now that
being said, and if the day came I had to give up my auto loaders, Id
move to a platform such a Troys pump actions. Or even find what legal
means you have to remove your gas tube, and convert to a side cocker.

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The Troy PAR is an interesting idea. I'm curious about how accurate they are. I imagine a pump would be less than ideal for shooting in a lot of positions other than offhand, like prone. The straight pull model might be a bit more functional. We also have mag limits that would make them a little less fun... 5 rounds for magazines designed for semi auto rifles. We've been able to use 10 round mags that are designed for AR pistols (LAR, etc) due to some poorly worded laws, but they've also banned those pistols so I imagine they'll be coming for the mags too. No limits on mag capacity if it's designed for manually operated actions (AICS mags, for example)

They banned the upper and lower receivers of basically anything remotely resembling an AR15 or any of the other popular semi's, so I can't get around it by using one of the conversions for straight pull conversions or bolt action uppers I've seen online.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by charlie b

I guess I would ask, why do you want to keep it under 10lb?

Looks like an interesting project.

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Just based on my experience carrying things. The custom Stag10 I can't use anymore was 9lbs unloaded (but with optic) and I liked carrying that around the woods, but I hate carrying my 12lb target oriented bolt action around. I figured sub 10lbs would be a good balance of light enough to carry but heavy enough to help with recoil and allow some flexibility in components to hit the other non-weight goals.

I kinda figured it was due to hunting.

Are you limited to cartridge? A good compromise hunting and long range target cartridge is the 6.5 (CM, 6.5x55, etc). A 6mm might even work depending on what you hunt. Then you could go lighter and be within your recoil limits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by charlie b

I kinda figured it was due to hunting.

Are you limited to cartridge? A good compromise hunting and long range target cartridge is the 6.5 (CM, 6.5x55, etc). A 6mm might even work depending on what you hunt. Then you could go lighter and be within your recoil limits.

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I'm not totally married to the 308, but I do like the idea of 308 for a general purpose rifle. It's also sufficient for moose and elk at close range which is good for me.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is great and I have some brass and dies already, but I wouldn't try to use it on a moose.

Since you plan on hunting with this rifle,Why would you even want to have it set up in a chassis? You can save a lot of weight just by using a carbon fiber stock like a Manners.
They have a chassis style set up that is molded into the stock if you want to run detachable magazine's.

The KRG Bravo is a great stock/chassis,but I don't think they even make one for a Savage action. I have one that I modified for my LH ARC Nucleus action,and I really like it.

IMO,If you want to use it for hunting and shoot some PRS matches with it,buy two stocks for it. One that works well for hunting,and one that works well for matches.

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Originally Posted by Txhillbilly

Since you plan on hunting with this rifle,Why would you even want to have it set up in a chassis? You can save a lot of weight just by using a carbon fiber stock like a Manners.
They have a chassis style set up that is molded into the stock if you want to run detachable magazine's.

IMO,If you want to use it for hunting and shoot some PRS matches with it,buy two stocks for it. One that works well for hunting,and one that works well for matches.

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Two stocks isn't a bad idea. I looked at the manners tactical stocks before and saw the weight listed at 2.6lbs+, figured they'd be 3lbs with bottom metal/mini chassis. But I just went back and had another look at their hunting line and was surprised to see options around 28oz. I imagine that's 2lbs or a little over with the mini chassis, but still roughly 1.5lb savings. That would put me closer to 9lbs, thanks for the tip!

I ordered the MDT LSS XL, but if I find it too heavy switching to a manners for days of longer carrying might be the best way to go, rather than trying to save 2oz here or there.

The chassis shipped yesterday and I'm getting a bit excited. I've been looking at bolt handles all week though...

It sounds like people are happy with the glades armory offering, but I haven't been able to find a thread where someone put it on a scale. They list weight as 2.5, I assume that's ounces, but I'm not sure if that includes the knob or not. Anyone able to chime in?

I don't mind the BA handle that came on the rifle, but since I found out how heavy it is I can't help but want to replace it. 5.6oz is a lot! I found a Lumley carbon fiber option that claims 1.2oz, over 1/4lb of savings! Plus the carbon fiber handle would look really cool next to the carbon fiber barrel, and looking cool is really the most important thing. Unfortunately one member here posted some less than flattering reviews regarding durability... so I've been looking for an option to save a little weight without worrying about breaking the thing off if I need to get a little aggressive on a stubborn case. Note that the Lumley I looked at is one with the carbon fiber arm. They have a titanium arm with carbon fiber knob that looks light and stronger, but it's not available in left hand.

It’s a bolt handle. It’s not heavy. Honestly, if you want light the barrel is where you should focus. Pencil thin & 20”
max. Followed by the stock. Worrying about a couple ounces in the bolt, if you are planning on a heavier profile 22-26” barrel is moot.


Edit: ok, looks like you are planning an 18” Carbon barrel. Good deal. I would look at a lighter buttstock. The MDT @26oz is NOT very light!

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

It’s a bolt handle. It’s not heavy. Honestly, if you want light the barrel is where you should focus. Pencil thin & 20”
max. Followed by the stock. Worrying about a couple ounces in the bolt, if you are planning on a heavier profile 22-26” barrel is moot.


Edit: ok, looks like you are planning an 18” Carbon barrel. Good deal. I would look at a lighter buttstock. The MDT @26oz is NOT very light!

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I agree that the buttstock could be a good place to save a little weight, but I'm having trouble finding something lighter that offers adjustable comb height. Even a standard a2 buttstock weighs 18oz or so with the buffer tube. An XLR lightweight could save 4oz, but that's the same I could save on the bolt handle and a bolt handle is much cheaper.

Drill the center out of your bolt knob.

Just picked up the chassis at the post office. Weighed the parts before I start assembly. Actual weights are:
MDT Vertical Grip - 5.5oz for just the grip, but 6.3oz with the hardware to hold the two halves together (which of course is required). Heavier than I expected but they don't list a weight on the website. Might change it out for something lighter if I can find something that would save a couple oz without sacrificing performance.
MDT LSS XL Gen 2, Short Action Savage, Fixed stock interface - 1lb 11.2oz with the grip screw but nothing else. On the lower end of the quoted weight range.
MDT Skeleton Buttstock Lite - 1lb 8.7oz with all of the plastic LOP spacers and the hardware to attach to the chassis. Basically the same as the 1.6lb they quoted in their Q&A.

In total, the whole assembly weighs 58.2oz which is 0.2oz less than I had guestimated - pretty darn close. I'm off to put it together and shoot it, then I'll report back with some pics! I don't have any of the lightweight components yet (barrel, etc), so it's just going to be a Savage 110 Tactical dropped in a chassis for now.

Edit: Upon assembly I immediately hated the vertical grip. Not because it's vertical; it was actually a nice position, but it had some rough edges that were hard on my finger. It could be easily sorted with some sandpaper, but I threw an ergo grip on instead. Ergo grip weighs 3.4oz so it's quite a bit lighter. I also pulled the LOP spacers which weigh a total of 3.1oz, or about 0.8oz each. I might throw one or two back in.. it felt good with the vertical grip and no spacers, but with the different grip angle I think I'd like it to be a bit longer. Anyway.. grip & spacer change bring the chassis total to 52.2oz, a bit lighter than I expected.

First thing I would do is move and keep the rifle you have.

In all seriousness though I would cut weight by losing the rail and either go to a two piece Burris Extreme base or an integral ring base like a Talley. Then I would drop the Athlon scope and go to a Leupold VX3i LRP. Way better optic than the Athlon and about half the weight. Those Athlons are heavy.

Shot it today. I like that the chassis holds the mags much better than the Savage AICS bottom metal. The polymer 10 round MDT mags got too swollen to fit in the old bottom metal when they were fully loaded so I ran them as 8 or 9 rounders. They fit in the chassis well fully loaded. The mag position improved feeding for the polymer mags as well as some steel ones. Feeding wasn't bad before, but now it's quite good. The actual ergos of the chassis are basically the same as the accustock that I customized so there wasn't a huge difference in shooting comfort, etc, but I got some benefits from it which makes me happy. With the lighter grip it came in 1.6oz lighter than accustock, but I'll have to add a front mlok qd sling mount so it'll be a wash.
https://i.imgur.com/76GtzLf.jpg?1
http://imgur.com/a/9vAePnZ

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Drill the center out of your bolt knob.

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Did some maths and I'd save 1.3-1.9oz drilling a hole in the end (depending on diameter of hole). Not as light as other options, but it's free. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by stomp442

First thing I would do is move and keep the rifle you have.

In all seriousness though I would cut weight by losing the rail and either go to a two piece Burris Extreme base or an integral ring base like a Talley. Then I would drop the Athlon scope and go to a Leupold VX3i LRP. Way better optic than the Athlon and about half the weight. Those Athlons are heavy.

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I think I might give the DNZ two piece mounts a try. With the few oz surprise I got on the chassis and ditching a few oz for base and lighter rings my updated estimate is 159.9oz, perfect. And I've got the bolt knob (drill or replace) to make it up if some of my estimates are off.

The Leupold is a decent idea. Unfortunately the lowest power mil ffp in that series is a 6.5-20 which is a bit much for the closer shots, and it's only 5.6oz lighter. Seems like an expensive way to cut 5.6oz. The new "light weight" Vortex is the lightest thing I've seen with the same features and it has an 8oz weight savings over the Athlon. I'll keep the new scope idea up my sleeve, but I think I can get to my weight goal without it.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Drill the center out of your bolt knob.

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What I did working on my 12 lb rules rifle. Sliced off the front
and back, blew a hole thru it, then a deep chamfer both sides.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fuj'

What I did working on my 12 lb rules rifle. Sliced off the front
and back, blew a hole thru it, then a deep chamfer both sides.

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Cool. It's a little hard to see in the pic, but looks like you started with one of the lighter weight hunting style bolt handles. I bet that's a pretty lightweight handle now.

I see you have your chassis but if you are looking for lightweight I think the XLR Element 3.0 Magnesium is the way to go! Chassis+ Butt Stock+ Grip is 28oz. And if you want to knock a quarter pound off your rig XLR has a 3D printed titanium grip that weighs 26g (.9 oz).

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Originally Posted by nikonNUT

I see you have your chassis but if you are looking for lightweight I think the XLR Element 3.0 Magnesium is the way to go! Chassis+ Butt Stock+ Grip is 28oz. And if you want to knock a quarter pound off your rig XLR has a 3D printed titanium grip that weighs 26g (.9 oz).

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Yeah.. that would have been a lighter option for sure. It is more expensive than the MDT (if you can even find one in Canada), but still might have been a better choice. Wish you would have brought it up a week ago!

I probably wouldn't do the titanium grip because of thermal conductivity (hot in the sun, cold in the winter), but the smoke composites carbon fiber grip is nearly as light and carbon fiber is nicer to touch in extreme weather. Pricey, but it would shave another couple ounces.

That’s the name of the game here. How light you want to go? Gets to a point where going any lighter starts getting rather expensive. I’ll say this to, I would not substitute your current mounting for the incredibly thin rings of the DNZ line. Their mounts are gears for sporting hunting rifles. Certainly not a tactical chassis rig as yours. Will just seem out of place.

I do so love when someone posts you should get something much more expensive. OP.. the VX-3i is available in FFP
in the 4.5-14x50, but it’s pushing $900 for a 6.7oz weight savings? I also don’t believe the VX-3i really any better than the Ares. I have the the Athlon Midas BTR, and don’t think the clarity through the VX-3i was better than mine. Certainly not for the price increase! But if the weight is that important, here ya go. https://www.amazon.com/Leupold-17233...1940927&sr=8-2

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

That’s the name of the game here. How light you want to go? Gets to a point where going any lighter starts getting rather expensive. I’ll say this to, I would not substitute your current mounting for the incredibly thin rings of the DNZ line. Their mounts are gears for sporting hunting rifles. Certainly not a tactical chassis rig as yours. Will just seem out of place.

I do so love when someone posts you should get something much more expensive. OP.. the VX-3i is available in FFP
in the 4.5-14x50, but it’s pushing $900 for a 6.7oz weight savings? I also don’t believe the VX-3i really any better than the Ares. I have the the Athlon Midas BTR, and don’t think the clarity through the VX-3i was better than mine. Certainly not for the price increase! But if the weight is that important, here ya go. https://www.amazon.com/Leupold-17233...1940927&sr=8-2

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Interesting point on the DNZ mounts. That's the reason I didn't want to go with the Talleys, but the reviews I read have suggested the DNZ's are a bit tougher. I was thinking about their "tactical" options that use 4 screws per ring. They're an extra ounce but look worth it in the photos... does that change your advice at all? Honestly I would have ordered them already if they came with #8-40 screws. DNZ's website says they'll modify them for me, but then I'd have to order from US which is time consuming and difficult thanks to ITAR (maybe not for rings?). Some Canadian retailers have them, but then I'd have to buy the counterbore to modify them myself on a drill press and buying tools makes it more expensive too. I'm not against spending money and doing a little work to save weight, I just want to do it as efficiently as possible. I also don't want to go ultralight, just keep it to 10lbs so I don't hate carrying it.

Thanks for the scope link, but that one is in MOA. the Leupold website doesn't show that lower power option available in Mils. I know I'm getting pretty picky here, but everything I own is in mils and I'd like to keep it that way (technically not true as I have a couple red dots that adjust in shooter MOA... but I never have to think about that once they're zeroed).

I hear ya. I prefer Mil as well. Even the 4-screw cap DNZ Rent my cup ‘o tea. I use the TAC-21 chassis which has the rail built in. (Mimics an AR). And I prefer Picatinny 1-piece mounts. For a chassis like yours, I would use a 7075-T6 Pic rail and mount of your choice. This is just one area I would never worry about cutting weight. Other than using billet Aluminum over steel. That’s the extent of the weight savings. I’d run a Spuhr if I could afford it. But as my budget goes, I have been using the AD Recon-s mount with QD. And it’s served me well. Although I am eyeing Warne’s new “Skyline” mount. 7075-T6, it looks legit! And still just over half price of a Spuhr. Yeah man!

Oh course this is simply my opinion. Others results may vary.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

I hear ya. I prefer Mil as well. Even the 4-screw cap DNZ Rent my cup ‘o tea. I use the TAC-21 chassis which has the rail built in. (Mimics an AR). And I prefer Picatinny 1-piece mounts. For a chassis like yours, I would use a 7075-T6 Pic rail and mount of your choice. This is just one area I would never worry about cutting weight. Other than using billet Aluminum over steel. That’s the extent of the weight savings. I’d run a Spuhr if I could afford it. But as my budget goes, I have been using the AD Recon-s mount with QD. And it’s served me well. Although I am eyeing Warne’s new “Skyline” mount. 7075-T6, it looks legit! And still just over half price of a Spuhr. Yeah man!

Oh course this is simply my opinion. Others results may vary.

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I've got the 20moa EGW rail that came with the 110 tactical and it's pretty nice. I also really like the Burris xtr sig rings that are on it now - they're my go to and I have a few sets of them in use. I liked them so much I picked up the Burris QD PEPR mount with the shim system as soon as it launched... And I got 50 rounds through that AR before our lovely govt made it a several thousand dollar paper weight. That 1 piece mount is great, but friggin heavy and too high for this rifle. As much as your advice is in line with my usual line of thinking and is free to implement with things I already have kicking around, I have to find somewhere to cut a few ounces or I'll be leaving the rifle at home too often.

The big reason I started this thread is because my usual philosophy is damn the weight as long as it works really well. But... Doing that with too many components makes for a 25lb bolt gun that I don't want to carry. On the flip side it's easy enough to throw together an ultralight mountain rifle that's a dream to carry (although it can get expensive), but that's not the kind of thing I want to shoot very much. Finding the balance is damn hard. Being a lefty makes it that extra little bit harder.

Yeah I still can’t believe you guys let that go through?? I understand it in Europe, Australia, New Zealand... but I was surprised the people let it go in Canada?? I thought the ties Canada has with the United States, let alone the closeness, would have the people fighting it harder.

It simply can not happen in the States. Well, it could... but that will be the end. I’m not even a crazy gun nut... I’m an enthusiast. But I’ve met a couple true “Gun Nuts”....and holy moly...even I was nervous around them! Bet even still, no one will ever take my ARs. The very second they do, they will make me a criminal. I’ve never been in trouble a day in my life with the law, but THAT would do it. Because I woul NOT follow those laws! And if men WITH GUNS(ironically), came to my home to take my property, they would need to use FORCE. Which they would... they would use their GUNS, to TAKE my guns! How does that make any sense to progressives?? I know I wouldn’t win that. I would die. But I would still fight, even with that being the outcome. I’m proud of my 2nd Amendment & will fight to keep it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Yeah I still can’t believe you guys let that go through?? I understand it in Europe, Australia, New Zealand... but I was surprised the people let it go in Canada?? I thought the ties Canada has with the United States, let alone the closeness, would have the people fighting it harder.

It simply can not happen in the States. Well, it could... but that will be the end. I’m not even a crazy gun nut... I’m an enthusiast. But I’ve met a couple true “Gun Nuts”....and holy moly...even I was nervous around them! Bet even still, no one will ever take my ARs. The very second they do, they will make me a criminal. I’ve never been in trouble a day in my life with the law, but THAT would do it. Because I woul NOT follow those laws! And if men WITH GUNS(ironically), came to my home to take my property, they would need to use FORCE. Which they would... they would use their GUNS, to TAKE my guns! How does that make any sense to progressives?? I know I wouldn’t win that. I would die. But I would still fight, even with that being the outcome. I’m proud of my 2nd Amendment & will fight to keep it.

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Dave when/lf the day ever comes they come for them, they wont be sending a swat team.
All the tough talk from the tough guys is simply bar room talk.
A little drone will be sent to take everything, including the house.
It will only take a few of those incidents till everybody gets in line.
There is only one answer, keep the liberals out of government.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Yeah I still can’t believe you guys let that go through?? I understand it in Europe, Australia, New Zealand... but I was surprised the people let it go in Canada?? I thought the ties Canada has with the United States, let alone the closeness, would have the people fighting it harder.

It simply can not happen in the States. Well, it could... but that will be the end. I’m not even a crazy gun nut... I’m an enthusiast. But I’ve met a couple true “Gun Nuts”....and holy moly...even I was nervous around them! Bet even still, no one will ever take my ARs. The very second they do, they will make me a criminal. I’ve never been in trouble a day in my life with the law, but THAT would do it. Because I woul NOT follow those laws! And if men WITH GUNS(ironically), came to my home to take my property, they would need to use FORCE. Which they would... they would use their GUNS, to TAKE my guns! How does that make any sense to progressives?? I know I wouldn’t win that. I would die. But I would still fight, even with that being the outcome. I’m proud of my 2nd Amendment & will fight to keep it.

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Well.. I can't really argue with that. But gun owners aren't exactly rolling over without a fuss either. Our many party political system allowed a party with 30% of the vote to gain leadership of the country, but they shouldn't actually be able to pass legislation without cooperation from enough other parties to get a majority vote. Trouble is they used parliament being shut down due to COVID-19 as an excuse to use an order in council to ban these guns without any sort of debate or vote. These guys that represent 30% of voters are acting like dictators. I'm aware of one "Charter Challenge" that is challenging the constitutional validity of the ban, and three well funded judicial reviews picking apart the way in which it was done. So far 0 firearms that I know of have been turned over. But... In my circle at least, the fear of legal problems is keeping the guns in the safe for now.