Cleaning/Accuracy

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, Im new to the sight. I had a question for you experienced savage shooters. My 3 savage rifles with factory barrels I have noticed that accuracy/ groups start to open up around 30 Rounds.

All 3 shoot very good groups but once I get around 30 Rds I start getting flyers and groups open up. Once I clean the barrel then accuracy returns.

Just wondering as some of my other rifles I can go a little longer between cleanings but I thought maybe with savage barrels being button barrels had something to do with this.

Thanks for any feedback.

How much time between the 30 rounds? All in the same session, or over a number of trips?

I don't clean my barrels very often anymore. I do the "normal" break-in with 20 rounds (cleaning after every shot for 5, then after every 2 for 10, then after the last 5). After that, I typically shoot 200-300 rounds between cleaning. Honestly, my barrels seem to shoot better when they are good and dirty.

Have you tried going 100+ rounds without cleaning to see what you get?

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Originally Posted by Newtosavage

How much time between the 30 rounds? All in the same session, or over a number of trips?

I don't clean my barrels very often anymore. I do the "normal" break-in with 20 rounds (cleaning after every shot for 5, then after every 2 for 10, then after the last 5). After that, I typically shoot 200-300 rounds between cleaning. Honestly, my barrels seem to shoot better when they are good and dirty.

Have you tried going 100+ rounds without cleaning to see what you get?

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This is usually a couple range sessions. I make sure to let the barrel cool down between 3-shot groups. I did do the proper break in schedule also. I really noticed it on a Savage predator 22-250. Will shoot very tight .3-.5 groups then around 35 are so shots after a couple range sessions group opened up around a inch. Once I gave it a good clean it right back to .3 groups. Thanks for the info!

Hmm, that is not what I am experiencing.

I have about 8 Savage rifles and when I take one to the range, I shoot between 75 and 100 rounds with the rifles I brought.
I only notice a drop in POI after a rifle barrel heats up to over 113 to 122 degrees F..
I have LCD temperature strips mounted on each barrel so I can keep track of temperature.
As long as I keep the barrel within 86 to 110 degrees F, most of my Savages are tack drivers.

On hot summer days, temperatures rise pretty quickly so I get to shoot only 5 or 6 shots before I have to let the barrels cool.
I switch to a different rifle while I let a barrel cooling fan get the temperature down.
On cold winter mornings with temperatures in the low to mid 20s, I can shoot 15 to 25 shots before the barrel gets too hot depending upon how cold it starts.
Of course, once the barrel cools down below 86 degrees, I start up again and find that I get more like 12 shots before I have to stop again.

When the barrels heat up past 110 to 113, I find the POI on my most accurate rifles drop about 1/4 inch but the accuracy remains.
I haven't noticed a growth in average group size, only a shift in POI.

I clean and decopper the barrels after every range session.

Depends on the barrel. My Axis HB in .223 can shoot at least 100rnds before it needs cleaning (it also has more than 1000rnds through it). I let it go 200rnds one time and notice a small difference in the group sizes. The .308 BVSS needs cleaning after every 50 (less than 500rnds through it).

Just one of those luck of the draw things with factory barrels.

This is a subject close to my interest. I am a retired mechanical engineer my main expertise was maintenance and machinery failure.
There are some hard facts in accuracy and the maintenance of the barre.
Fact 1 Barrel manufactures states that a very clean barrel is the most accurate. Rifle barrels have 2 charactristics (excuse spelling) bore must be dead striaght and centered. rifleing must not vary in depth. A barrel fouled will cause uneven rifleing and cause bullet unbalance.

Fact 2 Many shooters report that their barrel shoots more accurate dirty and fouled.

I personally am a super clean barrel freak and find that my barrels shoot more accurate clean.

I have a feeling that the dirty barrel accuracy is very true but caused by several factors. Including method of barrel breakin, cleaning style, . Bullet type and brand used. I would like for you shooters could report some facts on how you breakin and shoot. And how many shoots fired makes your gun shoot the most accurate. How did you maintain your barrel when new.
Thanks

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Originally Posted by azguy

This is a subject close to my interest. I am a retired mechanical engineer my main expertise was maintenance and machinery failure.
There are some hard facts in accuracy and the maintenance of the barre.
Fact 1 Barrel manufactures states that a very clean barrel is the most accurate. Rifle barrels have 2 charactristics (excuse spelling) bore must be dead striaght and centered. rifleing must not vary in depth. A barrel fouled will cause uneven rifleing and cause bullet unbalance.

Fact 2 Many shooters report that their barrel shoots more accurate dirty and fouled.

I personally am a super clean barrel freak and find that my barrels shoot more accurate clean.

I have a feeling that the dirty barrel accuracy is very true but caused by several factors. Including method of barrel breakin, cleaning style, . Bullet type and brand used. I would like for you shooters could report some facts on how you breakin and shoot. And how many shoots fired makes your gun shoot the most accurate. How did you maintain your barrel when new.
Thanks

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Thx AZguy and others for the replys. I am constantly learning!
Answer to your question for me is I did the shoot one clean for first 10 rds. Cleaned after 3 shots for next 3-4 groups and then just started shooting.

I am also a mechanical engineer with a little metallurgy experience.

A 'clean' rifle barrel is kind of an oxymoron. Once bullets are fired then erosion begins, especially in the throat. Added to that are the tooling marks left by normal production processes. So, there is rarely a clean, smooth surface for the bullet to travel through (hand lapped custom barrels are better in this regard). If you really want to see how bad it is get a good borescope and look into a bore. Also, let's consider that cleaning with many solvents just removes powder fouling and leaves copper in the bore. To remove the copper you need to use a product that will do that.

So, what we look for is consistency and that may be different if you are a hunter or paper shooter. As a hunter I used to sight in barrels by cleaning well between each shot, presenting a bore that will be the same when I take that first shot. Yes, follow up shots are done as well, just in case, and any POI change was noted between clean and fouled barrels. For paper punching I shoot a couple of shots before going for a bullseye to make sure that the record shots are on the same kind of conditions.

Also consider what happens in the bore. The first round will encounter only whatever lube you left in the barrel. Following will have burned powder and copper residue to deal with. That residue will partly be expelled by the next bullet and partly 'ironed' into the pits in the bore. Some will claim that enough of this makes the bore 'smooth' by 'filling' the pits and is good for the barrel. If you look at some of the data taken by precision shooters they have plotted group sizes based on how many rounds they have fired since a cleaning with copper removal. There is a definite change with the number of rounds fired between cleanings with copper removal.

So, all that is why some people clean a lot and some don't clean very much. One other factor is that very frequent cleaning may cause more barrel wear than shooting due to the cleaning rod rubbing on the bore. Hunting rifles that are fired only a few times between cleaning are probably worn more by the rod than the bullet. Some precision shooters will clean often and just replace the barrel more often. Some of those may replace a barrel every year or even sooner depending on the cartridge they are shooting.

I appreciate the expertise of azguy and charlie b and believe they are both right.

I find that shooting from a recently cleaned barrel results in one or more rounds off the POI.
Then after the cleaning residue is eliminated, the POI is right on and the rifle is back to its normal accuracy.
Most of my rifles shoot the first round or three high then the POI drops to the POA.
I have one rifle that does the opposite - go figure.

As I said, I generally shoot 75 to 100 rounds with each rifle I bring to the range on any given day.

With that amount of use, I am a great believer in cleaning rifles after every use and removing copper. I never use a brass brush and rarely use a nylon brush.
Because I clean each barrel so often, I use either Wipe-out foam or Patch-out fluid on a patch because they are not harsh but take out the copper very effectively while they clean the barrel.
I only use the foam on higher calibers because I find that the nozzle on the foam doesn't make a good connection to the chamber on calibers under .308 and often foam comes back into the action.
But the foam does wonders cleaning out flash hiders and muzzle brakes on my .308s.

The first patch through the barrel after putting the foam or fluid into the barrel and waiting at least an hour comes our deep blue from the copper removed.
The barrels are clean - nothing showing on the patch - after about 8 to 10 patches depending on the number of shots fired.

As for barrel wear, I have over 4100 rounds through my best shooting Savage 6.5mm Creedmoor and 3600 and 3900 respectively through my to .308 Savages without any drop off in accuracy. In fact, over the last three years each of the three rifles have shot more accurately every year, probably because I concentrated on improving my shooting and reloading techniques for the past three years.
I admit that I did wear out my first Savage .308 after over 6,500 rounds but that was primarily because the chamber that came from the factory at 0.080 longer than SAAMI.
The 6.500 rounds eroded the chamber another 0.090 deeper and I had finally had to seat out so far to maintain the jump to the rifling that I was losing consistent neck tension.
All of my new Savages have come from the factory with chambers right at SAAMI so I figure I may have an extra 5,000 rounds of erosion available to wear before I have to replace those barrels.

I'm not an engineer, but my gut tells me you either want a clean barrel, or a dirty one. I can see both arguments. I've always read that the value of a fouled barrel is that the fouling will "even out" the rough surfaces in the barrel. I know that from a precision engineering standpoint, this probably makes some people's skin crawl, but from a practical standpoint it makes a lot of sense to me.

I know I didn't see the best accuracy from any of my factory Savage barrels until they had at least 50 rounds through them and in two cases, nearly 200 rounds. I was ready to give up on a barrel once that would do no better than 1.25" for the first year I owned it. But after about 200 rounds, it would do no worse than an inch and often much better.

"Fact 1 Barrel manufactures states that a very clean barrel is the most accurate. Rifle barrels have 2 charactristics (excuse spelling) bore must be dead striaght and centered. rifleing must not vary in depth. A barrel fouled will cause uneven rifleing and cause bullet unbalance."

What barrel manufacturer states this? If this were true I'd have to clean my barrel 7 times during a 2 day match... I normally go 400-600rds between cleanings and alternate between carbon solvent and a light copper solvent. I never clean my barrel to the metal.

Secondly, It's impossible to bore a barrel "dead straight" and center over the entire length of a barrel. There is always a slight curve in the bore. Same with the rifling. The point of the break in cycle is to layer copper into the rifling. The reason you clean every few rounds is to have clean copper and not layers of carbon and copper mixed. Barrels in most cases shoot best when dirty because the bore is tighter. I've had barrels that i didn't do any more than pull a bore snake through every couple hundred rounds and always shot great. Over cleaning just wears barrels out faster.

Fact 2 Many shooters report that their barrel shoots more accurate dirty and fouled.

After cleaning with Carbon Solvent my barrels tighten back up in 10-15 rounds. After a light copper solvent cleaning they take 15-20 rounds. They both tighten up to original groups and come back to zero.

To the OP, are you shooting factory ammo or reloads? I would guess it's the ammo that likes what your barrel does when it's clean. If it's factory then try a different type of ammo to see if it shoots better. If they are reloads then do load dev on a fouled barrel and tune it in right.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...57&oe=5D0779C3
This image is an exaggeration of the curvature of a bore and how gunsmiths indicate a barrel on a lathe in order to properly time it to the 12 o'clock position.

What lone wolf said... many of use just shoot 'till accuracy degrades, 500 or more rounds with a quality barrel.
I don't see where you mentioned- nor where you were asked- whether you're "cleaning" powder fouling alone- or stripping copper as well.

Timing the muzzle end, yeah- different subject.... to each their own, I work between centers and don't do it; and the barrels I chamber shoot better than I can.

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

"Fact 1 Barrel manufactures states that a very clean barrel is the most accurate. Rifle barrels have 2 charactristics (excuse spelling) bore must be dead striaght and centered. rifleing must not vary in depth. A barrel fouled will cause uneven rifleing and cause bullet unbalance."

What barrel manufacturer states this? If this were true I'd have to clean my barrel 7 times during a 2 day match... I normally go 400-600rds between cleanings and alternate between carbon solvent and a light copper solvent. I never clean my barrel to the metal.

Secondly, It's impossible to bore a barrel "dead straight" and center over the entire length of a barrel. There is always a slight curve in the bore. Same with the rifling. The point of the break in cycle is to layer copper into the rifling. The reason you clean every few rounds is to have clean copper and not layers of carbon and copper mixed. Barrels in most cases shoot best when dirty because the bore is tighter. I've had barrels that i didn't do any more than pull a bore snake through every couple hundred rounds and always shot great. Over cleaning just wears barrels out faster.

Fact 2 Many shooters report that their barrel shoots more accurate dirty and fouled.

After cleaning with Carbon Solvent my barrels tighten back up in 10-15 rounds. After a light copper solvent cleaning they take 15-20 rounds. They both tighten up to original groups and come back to zero.

To the OP, are you shooting factory ammo or reloads? I would guess it's the ammo that likes what your barrel does when it's clean. If it's factory then try a different type of ammo to see if it shoots better. If they are reloads then do load dev on a fouled barrel and tune it in right.

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Thanks guys good discussion! I am using factory ammo. and again I am talking about Factory Savage barrels. I have a couple custom barrels on other guns and that is a complete different story. I can shoot many more rounds through them and cleaning is usually fast and easy verses a lot more cleaning to clean up the Savage Button barrel.
I will say that both of my Savage 22-250s are right at 100-150 Rds each now and seem to be just settling in. Each time out the rifles accuracy gets better.

Engineer here too!

I had a bbl like the lower image that lonewolf posted once. Try doping a rifle for distance when your barrel has 20 moa of arc. Lol

Regarding convential wisdom and barrel arguments there are a certain number that hold true. I think a good number of these have been previously mentioned. I think the bore is often overlooked for the muzzle as a cause of woe. There was an article where a barrel was intentionally destroyed while testing accuracy. The results were shocking!

https://rifleshooter.com/2018/03/do-...fect-accuracy/

https://www.longrangehunting.com/art...ted-crown.670/

see if you can stomach those articles. Lol

Couple of things here...

First, those indicating that they are going several hundreds of rounds between cleanings, I'm guessing (or know in LoneWolf's case) that you're shooting frequently and in high quantities such as matches or regular extended practice sessions and you typically shoot out a barrel in a season or less. The reason I say this is because most of these guys you're preaching this to aren't shooting 300-500 rounds through their rifle in a year, much less in a couple weeks or a month.

BIG DIFFERENCE in cleaning regime requirments when a barrel is only has to last a season (or less) rather than a few years to a lifetime. Carbon fouling attracts moisture and will result in a very pitted bore if these guys who don't shoot as much or as frequently don't clean until they've put several hundred rounds down the pipe. For some of them that could mean cleaning once every 5 to 10 years on a dedicated hunting rifle. Just sayin....


The other thing (and more pertinent to the OP's original observations) pertains to the .30-06 I currently have on hand for review as it exhibited something a little unusual on the last range trip.

Typically with Savage barrels I have found that it usually takes 3-5 rounds for things to "settle in" after a good cleaning, and then somewhere between 30 and 50 rounds the accuracy will start to taper off a little indicating it's ready to be scrubbed again.

This last range trip with the `06 in question I ended up putting 80 rounds through the rifle. As usually the first group was a little larger than normal, then it settled in nicely for the next 30 rounds or so. I finished up two boxes of 168gr ammo (40rds) and then switched to some 180gr loads with the intention of just shooting a group or two to reset my zero for the heavier bullets before calling it a day. Someone started talking to me and 45 minutes later I'd forgotten my plan and just started shooting groups with the 180's. The groups were all pretty piss poor (1.75" to 3+") and I just figured this particular barrel didn't like that particular load, but then my last two 3-shot groups (shots 35-40) resulted in a 1-1/8" group and a 3/4" group.

Didn't think much of it at the time, but a few days later I got to thinking and started wondering if the accumulated fouling buildup had hit a "sweet spot" for accuracy. I liken it akin to how often times when developing handloads you will find there are two accuracy nodes for a given combination - one usually right on the edge of max, and the other typically 150-200 FPS slower. Something I may experiment with in the future - but with a rifle that is far more pleasant to shoot 80+ rounds in a single session.

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Originally Posted by RustyShackle

Engineer here too!

I had a bbl like the lower image that lonewolf posted once. Try doping a rifle for distance when your barrel has 20 moa of arc. Lol

Regarding convential wisdom and barrel arguments there are a certain number that hold true. I think a good number of these have been previously mentioned. I think the bore is often overlooked for the muzzle as a cause of woe. There was an article where a barrel was intentionally destroyed while testing accuracy. The results were shocking!

https://rifleshooter.com/2018/03/do-...fect-accuracy/

https://www.longrangehunting.com/art...ted-crown.670/

see if you can stomach those articles. Lol

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That can take every thing that a guy belives and cause him to quit sending mail to Santa. I treat the crown like it was made of thin glass. I have a cover that I keep over it when not shooting and I clean it with a q-tip.

J.Baker,

I'm not sure that you found a 'dirty barrel sweet spot' or just experienced delay in getting your concentration back after a 45 minute layoff.
At my age, I expect concentration lapses even when I haven't been interrupted.

Last week, I shot 100 rounds through one rifle with 4 closely related loads of 25 rounds each in 5 shot groups. That rifle is well broken in with over 4,000 rounds down the tube.
I measured all of the groups and found little difference, within an expected standard deviation, in the average group size except for about 4 groups that I managed to screw up with one shot when I didn't stick to my routine - probably due to lapses in concentration.
It was pretty cold so I didn't have severe barrel heating problems but I did notice that by the last groups of each load, the POI was slightly lower then it was on the first group. This particular rifle drops the POI by about 1/4 inch when the barrel temperature gets above 113 degrees and toward 122 degrees on the temperature strip that I have on the barrel.

The group average group size on the first and 3rd loads were slightly better than the 2nd and 4th loads, but they were well within the statistical range of the overall average for the day and the standard deviation of the 20 groups.
I would say that would probably mean that there wasn't a 'dirty barrel sweet spot' for that session.

Just for the record, I would describe 'fouling a barrel' as clearing out the residue from cleaning and providing a light coating of powder residue.
I am a firm believer that a hunting rifle should be 'fouled' before going hunting.
I just won't take a hunting rifle into the field just after cleaning because I have not experienced that it will provide a predictable POI with a newly cleaned barrel.
It may just be me and how I was trained.

But I set up a fouled barrel so that the POI is at the POA from a very cold barrel because that is how I expect to shoot when hunting.
I wouldn't call shooting 60 or 100 rounds fouling. That is far past fouling - it results in a dirty barrel and I would expect to clean the barrel when I was finished with the session.
But I don't expect that the accuracy of a rifle should be effected by that kind of use.
If it was, I would be disappointed.
In fact, I regularly shoot those kind of sessions with just about all my rifles and don't notice any drop off in accuracy during the session or on the last groups shot.

I'm inclined to believe there are as many approaches to this question as there are personality types. ;)

You could probably check a guy's garage and get your answer to how often he cleans his rifle barrel. LOL

J. Baker, I guess that I did not stop to give the type of shooting that a guy does any weight. Being a high volume target and steel shooter myself vs a hunter type who may only shoot 20 or so rounds a year really does make a difference.
I have had experince both in shooting high rounds without cleaning in 3 gun shooting Where great accuracy comes second to just hitting as many targets as fast as you can. And replacing the barrel is just another expected cost. And precision shooting at a distance. Where long practice leads to a better score. I have not done any rifle hunting in years, just shotgun for upland birds.

Another internet site where gun barrel manufactures discuss the barrel accuracy is. I will just name the site not knowing how to link it.
www.ssusa.org let-the-barrel-tell-you-match-barrel-care-part-1/

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Originally Posted by CFJunkie

J.Baker,

I'm not sure that you found a 'dirty barrel sweet spot' or just experienced delay in getting your concentration back after a 45 minute layoff.
At my age, I expect concentration lapses even when I haven't been interrupted.

Last week, I shot 100 rounds through one rifle with 4 closely related loads of 25 rounds each in 5 shot groups. That rifle is well broken in with over 4,000 rounds down the tube.
I measured all of the groups and found little difference, within an expected standard deviation, in the average group size except for about 4 groups that I managed to screw up with one shot when I didn't stick to my routine - probably due to lapses in concentration.
It was pretty cold so I didn't have severe barrel heating problems but I did notice that by the last groups of each load, the POI was slightly lower then it was on the first group. This particular rifle drops the POI by about 1/4 inch when the barrel temperature gets above 113 degrees and toward 122 degrees on the temperature strip that I have on the barrel.

The group average group size on the first and 3rd loads were slightly better than the 2nd and 4th loads, but they were well within the statistical range of the overall average for the day and the standard deviation of the 20 groups.
I would say that would probably mean that there wasn't a 'dirty barrel sweet spot' for that session.

Just for the record, I would describe 'fouling a barrel' as clearing out the residue from cleaning and providing a light coating of powder residue.
I am a firm believer that a hunting rifle should be 'fouled' before going hunting.
I just won't take a hunting rifle into the field just after cleaning because I have not experienced that it will provide a predictable POI with a newly cleaned barrel.
It may just be me and how I was trained.

But I set up a fouled barrel so that the POI is at the POA from a very cold barrel because that is how I expect to shoot when hunting.
I wouldn't call shooting 60 or 100 rounds fouling. That is far past fouling - it results in a dirty barrel and I would expect to clean the barrel when I was finished with the session.
But I don't expect that the accuracy of a rifle should be effected by that kind of use.
If it was, I would be disappointed.
In fact, I regularly shoot those kind of sessions with just about all my rifles and don't notice any drop off in accuracy during the session or on the last groups shot.

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I completely agree on fouling the barrel before going on a hunt. When shooting 60-100 rd sessions are your barrels factory savage barrels are custom barrels? Thx

hunterdan,

All of my Savages have factory Savage barrels, although for my oldest .308, I had Savage replace the original barrel with a fluted target barrel after over 6.500 rounds.

The factory replacement barrel actually shoots more accurately than the original factory barrel. It now has 3,600 rounds through it and is shooting better than ever.

When I encountered that issue with factory Savage barrels, I found that i was not cleaning as well as I thought, and leaving some copper in the barrel. And at the range, I'd start seeing a fall off in accuracy just as I was getting really settled in. Very frustrating!

"Clean" is a relative term, so how do you verify if you've really "cleaned" the barrel? If you're relying solely on patch color, you're probably leaving a lot of fouling in the factory barrel. Only by employing a bore scope or endoscope where you can actually see to verify your cleaning methods and eliminate all the guesswork, regardless of what fluids or compounds you use in the process will you know for sure your barrel is free of copper and powder residue.

So tell us how you verify the degree to which your barrel is clean, and this may lead to some suggestions on how to get better performance from your factory barrels.

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Originally Posted by azguy

There are some hard facts in accuracy and the maintenance of the barre.
Fact 1 Barrel manufactures states that a very clean barrel is the most accurate.

I would like for you shooters could report some facts on how you breakin and shoot. And how many shoots fired makes your gun shoot the most accurate. How did you maintain your barrel when new.
Thanks

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Except Gale McMillan, who specifically and vocally claims it's a barrel maker invention to sell more barrels... To the perfectly straight part, you haven't been to Savage, or watched the video that used to be here, where Savage bends them the opposite direction of a bow; to straighten them.:becky:

I clean when accuracy falls off, each rifle is different. Best is in the 200 round range, one POS it's about the 40 round mark.
I don't "break-in" barrels. This gorilla with a nylon brush with some overpriced cleaning concoction isn't going to be doing anything for Smoothing out burrs, compared to a copper swage at high velocity, being pushed by 60,000psi, followed closely by plasma, and the sandblasting of powder tumbling down the bore.

But if it makes you feel better about things, clean away.

I’m actually a minimal invasion kinda guy. So I only clean when the gun becomes inconsistent. When my 22-250 was still a 12 twist I used the 53 grain vmax and slung me anywhere from 3600-4000ft/s. That rifle would rip a ragged hole with pretty much any load. The barrel would run 400-500 rounds before I’d pull an Otis brand snake thru it and clean the powder fouling from it. That barrel was as low Mai tensnce as it came,and was the gun that sold me on savage rifles.
I’ve also got a model 10t in 308. Incredible how consistent the rifle is with almost anything I feed it from 150-190 grains. I pull a snake thru that maybe annually,up to 500 rounds even.
My 260 has a shilen tube. I’ve never cleaned the copper from it. Over 1000 rounds and still sub 1/2moa.
I feel like once the barrel achieves copper equilibrium velocity increases an easy 100ft/s because of the tighter,slicker surface.
The key to consistency in the field is consistency in the gear. Most pro shooters keep a bore that’s perfectly spotless as it ensures a consistent component
Instead of keeping my bore spotless I allow it to achieve copper equilibrium at which point it takes as much copper with it as it leaves behind,and thus maintaining a consistent surface on the component.
And becaus I’ve acquired all my load data shooting in this manner I expect it to perform as it always does.
Load development is crucial. The fine details for the specific chamber and rifle. Optimizing each detail so even if environmentals change you know the load is going to remain consistent. Finding a wide node is the key. The hum