Ditch the barrel nut?

I'm getting a new barrel for my Savage, but I've been talking to a smith and contemplating taking it to him and getting a new barrel installed by him. He suggested a Benchmark since he's a dealer and can get them a little cheaper. It will be lathed to go on the action without a barrel nut. I'm thinking about that option or about keeping it with the barrel nut so one day I could do it myself.

I'm curious and know very little about the benefits of going this route. I always assumed you should stick with the barrel nut and get pre-fit barrels so you can swap them easily enough at home.

That being said, I have no tools or go/no go gauges, so my initial investment putting a new pre-fit barrel would be the same as taking it to a smith and having a custom lathed barrel put on (around $600). Maybe a little cheaper doing it myself, but after buying the tools and gauges, it's not far off in price. The smith would also do some extra work, including cerakote the action for very cheap since he's doing the work.

So my questions are: Are there any advantages ditching the barrel nut and going with a barrel lathed for the action? If you get a barrel made for the action by a smith, can you go back to a barrel nut/pre-fit barrel down the road or does the smith modify the action so that is no longer an option?

Sorry if these are dumb questions. I'm new to the Savage world and also new to gun mods. Mostly been an archery hunter that now has the long range bug pretty bad!

Nothing wrong with going without the nut, looks better if you ask me. It will not affect the ability to use a barrel set up for a nut down the road. If you plan on switching barrels a lot some day, having a shoulder is faster than having a nut as long as you’re using the same bolt and receiver.

The first problem I see is this. If you need to change the bolt head or bolt body for any reason, you will need to return to the gunsmith and have the headspace set again. Spend the money on the tools and swap the barrel yourself.

My vote is to stay with the barrel nut. There are more advantages to it and basically no negatives outside of subjective appearance value. Buy a set of gauges, they will last you a lifetime.

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Originally Posted by olddav

The first problem I see is this. If you need to change the bolt head or bolt body for any reason, you will need to return to the gunsmith and have the headspace set again. Spend the money on the tools and swap the barrel yourself.

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Only the bolt head would make a difference, and they can be repaired in most cases. But you do have a good point.

I want a shouldered barrel because it has more meat on the bone and surface area to keep it cool. And it does look better. BUT until I have a lathe or buckets of disposable income, I'll use the nut.

One additional point or opinion, the less time I spend hiring/waiting on someone else the happier I am.

If you plan on changing barrels or cartridges often keep the nut. If you are building a hunting rifle for the ages. Loose it. If you are building a precision rifle loose it.

Blasphemy!!! Someone talking about denutting a Savage on the Savage forum. LOL �� Seriously it’s your rifle. I dropped the nut on a 783 Remington and it shoots great. Put witness marks on the barrel and receiver and you can change it out as often as you like. But you will still have to have a barrel vice and an action wrench and gauges. I know I didn’t help a bit.

I agree with what everyone else has said. The advantage of nutless is that it is perfectly mated to that single action and bolt head. Take it off and on to your hearts desire. It will always be spot on.

Going with a nut has the advantage of being compatible with any action with Savage threads. The barrel won't be married to that specific action and bolt head.

My goal is accuracy and hunting. Long range specifically. I love to plink long range, but keeping hunting shots inside 6-700, which is actually pretty common here out west.

I picked up a barely used XLR Element for a good price, which really swayed me to go for a new barrel and customize it a little more.

I’m definitely leaning nutless. For the price, it’s about the same after buying parts and gauges. Yes, the gauges and tools will last forever, but a barrel should last me at least 5 years if not more. I shoot a fair amount in the winter/spring, but not enough to burn a barrel that quickly. If for some reason I find myself swapping barrels more frequently, I’ll consider going back to the barrel nut. Sounds like it’s not a very expensive experiment to go this way.


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The "disadvantage" of going without the nut? Like you said, no lathe so it has to be done by someone that knows what he's doing. That means, waiting in line and spending more $$.
The advantage of keeping the nut? It's a DIY job. If you don't like that caliber OR just curious to try something else, brake the nut loose, spin on another barrel in a different caliber, swap bolt heads if needed and go shooting. Not one of my Savage rigs has the same caliber barrel it started life with. And I've done it all myself.
Lets see:
20 TCM Wildcat,
20 VT,
20 VT "short",
.221 Fireball,
.223,
.223 with a brake,
6 BR,
22 BR,
6.8 SPC,
6.8 BR Wildcat,
.308 and am working on a few more that may never make it to the finish line but I'am not waiting in line for my smith to swap barrels with the nut.
No nut DOES look cool but not enough to make me switch. Maybe just one so I can sat I did it?? :p

What about any appreciable accuracy gains? Will say a Bartlien lathed and installed by a smith be appreciably more accurate than a criterion I spin on myself? Keep in mind, I’ve never done a barrel swap in my life, but I’m pretty handy and it looks easy (based on online videos). Watching internet tutorials makes me a certifiable expert I guess!


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Factory Savage, Pac Nor, Douglas, Bartlien, pick a name and more than likely you'll end up with a good barrel. All of my barrels have ended up as bug hole shooters.
Wanted to try "another caliber" but didn't want to spend BIG $$$ ($300.00 to $400.00) and not like the final results so someone turned me on to a couple of Wilson barrels blanks that were for sale. Bid on both but only got one. ($125.00) Was told Wilson barrels were CRAP but I got mine anyway. Had it chambered in my 6.8 BR Wildcat, spun it on and went shooting. Turned out to be ANOTHER bug hole shooter and ended up as one of my better barrels to clean. When I say "bug hole", I'am talking about a 5 shot group that can be covered with a dime, from the bench @ 100 yards.
So much for "outside opinions". Go with what you feel is a good deal. It just may be.:cool:

Nut-less headspace can only be increased with a reamer or new recoil lug or decreased with a lathe, surface grinder, recoil lug change or a combination of all of these. Once a machined adjustment is made it takes the same time and associated costs to reverse it.
With the nut, fine adjustments to headspace can be made in any direction in just a matter of minutes with only the initial cost of the installation tools. These fine adjustments can be made to match sizing dies or other actions that use the same dies. Barrel changes from my range to my garage and back shooting at the target can be done in less than an hour.
Time and money is what it is all about for me. The targets and game can't tell the difference if struck from a nutless or nutted barrel.
My .02,
Randy

I have built them both ways on factory actions, no differences in accuracy which could be directly attributed to shouldered/non-shouldered barrel.
Its really about aesthetics, IMO.

If you want the smith to do a shouldered barrel from a blank, you really should go full monty (or just stick with a quality spin-on prefit).
True the the receiver face, true/cut receiver threads ten thou over, cut the new barrel tenon to fit- just as you would with an M700 action.

You're not going to realize any accuracy gains from a shouldered barrel for the extra cost incurred unless you go the extra yards. Once you go that route though, you'll always need a custom barrel.

If you like the aesthetics of the shouldered barrel, you can still change it out- just use the witness marks on the barrel and receiver. You'll need an action wrench and barrel vise instead of just the vise and nut wrench.

If you pull that "shouldered barrel" and try fitting it on another action, my guess is the head space may be off? No two actions are the same.
That shouldered barrel was machined to head space on only one action. I see the need to "plan ahead". Mo money, mo money, mo money.
The nutted barrel can be set where YOU want it.:cool:

Delete

^^^
I never said he could install it on a different receiver- I said he could change it out, just like a prefit (on the same action) using simple witness marks instead of a headspace gauge. Some like to be able to shoot different chamberings from the same rifle with a barrel (and maybe bolthead) swap, and it doesn't require a barrel nut system to do it.

All of the pro barrel nut people base their opinion on swapping barrels on a regular basis. I see no need to put that barrel on another action. If you want a different cartridge you can still use that action for another barrel, shouldered or barrel nut. As long as you use that barrel, that recoil lug and that bolt head you can take it off and put it back on 1,000,000,000 times(as long as you still have threads). No head spacing, just tighten and go. You also have no need for a trued barrel nut.

If there's a difference between two different "actions", say .015 from one to the other, something may need to be adjusted. Got a lathe in your back pocket to change the shoulder position?? Sure that shouldered barrel can be moved from one action to another but the head space better be right on OR, more $mith work will be needed. And you have to remember, you're dealing with a Savage action. So, if scope mounting holes and action screw holes can be off, just maybe action length can be off too?? Different thickness of machined recoil lugs may help but be prepared to make adjustments moving that shouldered barrel from one action to another. All the witness marks in the world won't help if the action lengths arn't the same.

So if you want to keep that shouldered barrel on one action, you've got it. Just be prepared to do some machine work or have it done by someone that knows what he's/she's doing if you plan on moving it to another action.

Sounds like there are some advantages to the nut, but most arguments are centered around swapping barrels frequently, swapping calibers, or moving one barrel to multiple actions.

None of these apply to me, so I'll try nutless this go-around. If/when I burn this new barrel out, I may very well go ahead and try the DIY route with a new one with a nut. I'm all about accuracy/precision and don't care as much about looks. I'll probably test both ways just to see for myself, but it's going to take a bit to burn the new barrel so I'll have plenty of time.

The biggest advantage of having a barrel nut, is your ability to set headspace how you want it and to change it depending on circumstance... something that requires money every time if you don’t have it... in the end, Unless you’re a professional level shooter, I doubt you will see the difference in accuracy...

what I don’t understand is how tooling will cost the same amount as a gunsmith?... a set of go/no go gauges and a barrel wrench cost less than a hundred dollars...

btw... there’s a great thread over on snipershide where a guy tested/testing the difference... so far he has found no accuracy improvements with the shouldered barrel.

IMHO, most the "shouldered barrels" look pretty good. Reminds me of my Remington XP 100 actioned rifle. Love it!!
As far as setting head space? I don't bother to use gauges or an action wrench anymore. 99.99% of my chamberings are Wildcat rounds and there's no gauges available anyway. All head spaces are set with full length sized brass AND set on the tight side. The barrel nut IS NOT tightened like a go rilla was working on it. Snug it good. Steel hammer on steel wrench gets the job done and I've NEVER had a barrel nut come loose. Each barrel and nut are marked and matched to the action mark. Action chucked in a padded vice, nut wrench smacked, barrel and nut spun off and the process is reversed. Head space is checked with formed brass. Barrel and bolt head if needed can be swapped in less than 15 minutes. No need for any of the above if you're working with a shouldered barrel and don't plan on changing calibers that often.

I ran a barrel nut on a Mausingfield Action in competition for 3yrs. I finished in 8th out of almost 400 shooters overall last year in the South Eastern Region PRS Club Series. This year I picked up a new Gunsmith Sponsor and am running shouldered barrels for the first time. Accuracy wise I don't really notice any difference.

The biggest difference is the Gunsmiths ability to time the curvature of the bore to the 12 o'clock position when head-spacing the barrel. What does this do for the shooter?

(1) you get a few Mils of elevation back in the turret when zeroing

(2) You end up almost perfectly at the mechanical zero on windage meaning you won't need 2-3 mils left or right when zeroing like you sometimes need when running a barrel nut that the bore is not timed.

I have had my barrels shoulder by the same smith and not need to adjust my scope more than a few tenths of a mil when zeroing a new barrel. This is probably the biggest benefit. Does it increase performance? Not really, but it gives you a little more flexibility if your scope has limited travel. Overall it looks better....

So the Smith is charging me $650. That includes new Benchmark barrel, Cerakote the action to match stainless, new recoil lug, and any machining work associated with it all. He mentioned doing some other work as well, but I'm meeting with him in a few weeks to go over his proposal.

Doing it myself costs from what I gather:

$350 for a new barrel in stainless with the contour I want.
$100 for a go and no-go set of gauges for 6.5 Creed.
$30 for a new recoil lug
$25 for a new stainless barrel nut
$40 for a barrel nut wrench

Total DIY: $545. Also note that the prices don't reflect shipping charges I'm sure would add to the cost for these items purchased online.

I'm also pretty sure I could shop around a bit and potentially find some of it cheaper.

So $550 DIY vs $650 smith. Cheaper to do DIY and less wait time, but then I'd pay to have someone Cerakote the action alone so that adds costs. In the end it comes out to pretty even, except I would have the gauges and barrel wrench forever.

"So $550 DIY vs $650 smith". You forgot the cost of the action wrench. Another $100.00? If you do the barrel swap thing enough, you may choose NOT to use the action wrench. Depends on how confident you are at what you're doing.
Then, there's the wait time involved with your smith. Doesn't feel like working that day? Things arn't going as smooth as he would like? If you're doing a FTF transaction, you're OK. If you ever ship anything to get worked on, you better hope it gets there. Lots of stories about lost gear or empty boxes showing or damaged goods.
I'am lucky enough to have found a good man to do my chambering work. I've lost count on how many barrels he's chambered for me.
I send him MY blank and MY custom cut reamer, he'll chamber the barrel and have it back to me in about a week or so, unless it hunting season, then it takes a bit longer.;)
And when you finally get done spending all your hard earned $$, you've still got BIG $$ invested in a Savage. And you better hope it shoots as good as you hoped for.
One thing to remember, you're only going around one time (unless you're Shirley MacLane) and you can't take those $$ with you unless you change them into Travelers Checks. Spend those $$ and enjoy the ride. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie

"So $550 DIY vs $650 smith". You forgot the cost of the action wrench. Another $100.00? If you do the barrel swap thing enough, you may choose NOT to use the action wrench. Depends on how confident you are at what you're doing.
Then, there's the wait time involved with your smith. Doesn't feel like working that day? Things arn't going as smooth as he would like? If you're doing a FTF transaction, you're OK. If you ever ship anything to get worked on, you better hope it gets there. Lots of stories about lost gear or empty boxes showing or damaged goods.
I'am lucky enough to have found a good man to do my chambering work. I've lost count on how many barrels he's chambered for me.
I send him MY blank and MY custom cut reamer, he'll chamber the barrel and have it back to me in about a week or so, unless it hunting season, then it takes a bit longer.;)
And when you finally get done spending all your hard earned $$, you've still got BIG $$ invested in a Savage. And you better hope it shoots as good as you hoped for.
One thing to remember, you're only going around one time (unless you're Shirley MacLane) and you can't take those $$ with you unless you change them into Travelers Checks. Spend those $$ and enjoy the ride. :cool:

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I think you touched on my biggest concern. Is it smart to dump a bunch of money on a Savage action?
Well, I think why not? Remington blueprinted actions aren’t exactly cheap, and I’m not very impressed with Remington’s overall.
Custom actions cost upwards of $1,000 so pass on that.

My only other option that I considered was buying a Tikka CTR 24” barrel rifle. Cost is $1100. Now you get a nice action, possibly good barrel, and cheap stock.

With the Savage, I happened to have found an XLR Element for Savage in like new shape for a good price. That ultimately swayed my decision. I wanted a chassis down the road, so I decided to go for it.

While the Savage actions aren’t as amazing as some, I don’t mind them one bit. I’ve been very happy with mine, and would even say that when I shoot my Winchester M70 I’m not overwhelmed compared to my Savage. But I’m not overly picky when it comes to actions. It shoots, it extracts, and I like the accutrigger.

In the end, I also like the option that I CAN do the barre work down the road if I choose. Nice option to have. Some guys spend over $1,000 on a Ruger PR. When I’m done it will be a little over $1G, but I’m my opinion I’ll have a nicer gun.

Tough choice though. Some good options out there, but I wanted to stay in the $1200 range. So when I’m done I’ll have a cerakoted action, nice barrel, chassis, and a gun that can ultimately be worked on as a DIY project if I choose.

Not too shabby in my book.


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Freediver, What are you using this rifle for? Savage rifles are great entry level rifles. The Savage actions biggest draw back on a competitive level is reliability. Let me know what you intend to do or goals you have and I can provide a ton of advice from direct personal experience with the endeavor of going from running built up savages to a custom action.

Bottom line? If you prefer/like the Savage action to build on, it's your choice. Nothing like taking a low class Savage and coming out on top when it comes to competition.:cool: That's like taking a rear grip SP and beating the long range rifle guys at their own game.
My guess? This won't be your last and only Savage build. Go for it and keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie

Bottom line? If you prefer/like the Savage action to build on, it's your choice. Nothing like taking a low class Savage and coming out on top when it comes to competition.:cool: That's like taking a rear grip SP and beating the long range rifle guys at their own game.
My guess? This won't be your last and only Savage build. Go for it and keep us posted.

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This was my train of thought until I was trying to fix crap with my Savage after every match because of feeding/ejection issues... Yes some people "never" have an issue, but those people to shoot nearly as many rounds or beat their gear up nearly as bad. I've seen everything go down in matches. Savages are the most common factor due to design, but they fill their intended bill very well for the average guy just starting out!

A lot more to accuracy than the action.
Plain old Stevens 200 actions, but set up uniquely for competition...sometimes it pays to think outside the box:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek075/

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

Freediver, What are you using this rifle for? Savage rifles are great entry level rifles. The Savage actions biggest draw back on a competitive level is reliability. Let me know what you intend to do or goals you have and I can provide a ton of advice from direct personal experience with the endeavor of going from running built up savages to a custom action.

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I do zero competitions. No PRS or anything that involves high rounds in short order. Purely long range practice at our local range with my buddies and hunting. That’s it.

I have about 300 rounds on this gun and no feeding or extraction issues. But I don’t run it like some of you do in competitions. Just a fair amount of range time to get good at long range, and hunting.


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Then I would stick with the savage until you feel it doesn't meet your needs. Plenty accurate enough and if it does break it's not hard to find the parts. Great platform to learn on and work on as well. I would go barrel nut and shop for a quality prefit. I've had no issue shooting off the shelf barrels. Get a Wheeler action wrench and a savage nut wrench. Gauges should only cost about $60. You only need a go and no-go gauge. You do not need the field gauge. I like Forster gauges, but also use PTG depending on my timeline and availability. I also use a breaker bar, torque wrench, and bench mounted vice for my set up, but that's not all necessary as has been mentioned. Swapping barrels is not difficult at all! Plenty of demonstrations available on YouTube etc. and if you can't find one let me know and I'll send you something to get you going.

If you only plan on using "factory loaded ammo", the gauges will do the job at setting head space. Not one of my Savage rigs will load factory loaded ammo. The bolt won't close. Head space is just too snug, BUT, my brass doesn't get moved that much when resizing and lasts a loooong time.
I have some BR brass with 25 to 30 + resizes on them and they're still going strong. No split necks and primer pockets still snug. I also don't run hot loads and THAT makes a big difference.

$650 Benchmark barrel on a Savage? Please send us some pictures of targets when you get it together.

I love my Savages. I’m a tinkerer. I like the ability of the Savage and the nut to be able to put any barrel of any one of a vast number of chamberings and be able to do it with a few hand tools. The nut makes this possible. All of this works great for someone who likes to tinker. As has been said before you just about have to be to keep one up and running. If I was going to do away with the nut I would use a different action. I prefer the Howa action over the Savage for reliability and strength and smoothness. The comparable price doesn’t hurt either.

Like LoneWolf said, Savage actions have their place. For most applications, the Savage action is just fine. I was surprised at one of the club bench rest matches, how many people use a Savage action for competition. Savage actions are great to get started on, and easy enough to work on.

That being said, for PRS competitions, the Savage action is not going to cut it. I've tried it, even a T&T action, and the field conditions proved too much for the action.

I've personally noticed no discernible difference in the accuracy or the precision of a rifle with a shouldered barrel or a nutted barrel. Simply put, they are two ways of attaching a barrel on an action. I prefer a barrel nut system, as I prefer to swap barrels and not have to send the action out to a smith.