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Hello All, been trying to search for the answer to no avail, what i'm looking for is, do you guys know if it's legal to run a rifle reciever in a stock that has been cut behind the pistol grip thus making a rear grip pistol? assuming the OAL is kept to 26+in and the barrel length is 16+ inches. I know it's done frequently with shotguns (stock removed and pistol grip installed) just couldn't find a clear answer on a "rifle"
I think the problem here is not the length... OAL and barrel length is good, but, as I understand it, ATF defines a rifle as something ("something" not their word) as "...designed to be fired from the shoulder." If you remove the shoulder piece from the stock, I believe it falls under "other" which requires NFA registration/regulation or whatever you do with the odd-ball weapons.
i.e., because it no longer is designed to fire from the shoulder, it is not a rifle. That's the kicker , in my book.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whic...ated-under-nfa
Which firearms are regulated under the NFA?
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
(6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and
(8) a destructive device.
[26 U.S.C. 5845; 27 CFR 479.11]
Last
I read this to allow making a rifle with a barrel over 16" long and total length over 26" long; and have been making and shooting such for several years.
Repeated requests to ATF offices for rulings about this have had NO response.
joe b.
^^^and yet, the following is their definiton of a rifle:
Quote:
"2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull of the trigger.11 A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length."
Judging from Joeb's reported experience and discussions on other forums, the ATF does not answer this question. Perhaps they simply choose not to answer because the law does not address it. They don't want to go on record stating one way or another.
One could argue that if the law does not specify whether it is an NFA item, then it is NOT an NFA item. It probably needs to be registered as a pistol. The Savage "Striker" is a pistol.
The original paperwork defines the action as either a rifle or other. If it was purchased as a rifle it.needs to stay a rifle.
How many out there actually keep a copy of the paperwork you fill out when you purchase a gun?
This is how I read it as well. just seeing if others have done the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeb33050
I have recently wanted to get into handgun hunting (all of the thrill of archery hunting without the startup cost/ constant training/conditioning) and I've really seen some nice rear grip savages over the years. I wanted to get into a contender but man those things have gotten pricey! so a rear grip savage would be the cheapest route for me. it would literally only cost me a stock (thinking boyds pro varmint and chop/contour pistol grip in a cool laminate color) then I would just need the barrel. I figure I'd build it off a long action to add some length to get me above 26" then buy a inexpensive take off barrel in say .308 (did savage make factory .338 federal barrels?) then I could chop it to ~14" and thread it, make a radial style brake and pin/weld it to keep it legal. I have a 300WM barrel laying around I could use as well just down load it.
If I get drawn for elk this year I'd really like to give handgun hunting a shot.
If the OAL is 26" and the barrel length is "at least" 16", it's still a rifle, no matter what it looks like.
Check out the BATF paper dated July 25, 2011. That's what I go by. I keep a copy in my range bag just in case there's ever any questions.
Any measurements shorter than stated and you'll have to deal with the BATF and get yourself a Tax Stamp.
My rear grip SP in built on a Savage Model 10 "lefty" repeater. Right hand has control of the grip and left hand works the bolt and feeds ammo.
That same "lefty" action is used on one of my bench rest rigs. Mounted on a Whidden V Block (as is the SP) and fitted to a "right hand" thumb hole BR style stock.
Two screws and the action is out and ready to be mounted in which ever stock you want. Swap barrels and bolt heads as needed and you're ready to go shooting.
^^^
Okay... responding to m12lrs
Not only do owners not keep original paperwork, but how does it "STAY a RIFLE"? If it is "papered as a rifle", and you change the stock so as to not have a shoulder piece, is it still a rifle because it is a certain length and the paperwork said it was/is a rifle? or does the fact it is no longer a designed to fire from the shoulder make it not a rifle??? i.e. is it a crime to remove the shoulder stock from a rifle if the barreled action and grip has a minimum overall length of 26"???
There is no definitive statement from the ATF, so you better be prepared for a fight if you do it.
I AM NO EXPERT ON ANY OF THIS. MY OPINION ON THE MATTER IS WORTHLESS. I KNOW NOTHING!!!!
I want to think Nor Cal Mikie is correct.
On a side note. What parts would one need to convert from RH to Left Hand bolt, right side eject? just the handle maybe the bolt body? or are the LH receivers different?
It's not a simple as replacing parts... I know Fred at Sharp Shooter Supply does those kinds of conversions. I hope to have him do some for me.
Make sure you meet STATE requirements too.
Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeb33050
If you take your RIFLE and cut the stock, you have # 4 = a weapon MADE FROM A RIFLEQuote:
Originally Posted by foxx
right?
Maybe?
it is legal to make a rifle from a pistol, not legal to make a pistol from a rifle (without paying the tax)
Not if it's overall length is more than 26" which was originally specified as the OP's intent.Quote:
Originally Posted by aephilli822
did some more reading on the atf's web site this afternoon and I can't find anything saying you cant do what I'm wanting to do. I did find that a weapon over 26" oal and 16" barrel (rifle) or 18" (shotgun) yet no stock are classified as a "firearm" the pistol grip only shotguns (as sold from the manufactuer) are "firearms" I was however unable to find if making a "rifle" into a "firearm" was lawful/unlawful
Once a rifle, always a rifle is the ATF interpretation. This is how taking a rifle receiver and making it into something that would otherwise be called a pistol is a "SBR" and a felony without the proper blessings and taxes, even if there is no longer a shoulder stock.
I'm just wondering WHY? If you've ever fired a pistol grip only shotgun, they're far less useful than than anything with a shoulder stock. I can't see a long bolt action pistol being any more useful. If you're just after something more compact, have you considered a 16" barrel and short LOP stock, or a folding stock?
yes I have considered a 16" barrel with a folder, but the bulk of the folder kind of defeats the purpose on a shorty, long rifle yes.
I personally haven't fired a centerfire pistol like one of these but have always liked the concept. my thoughts are I could carry such animal on a chest mounted holster and have it at a arms reach. where i'd be hunting elk is fairly dense terrain and I'd like the oppertunity to actually stalk to my game for the kill. our deer hunting here is very open country and shots to 300+ are the norm. yes still enjoyable but the other does appeal to me as well. probably has alot to do with the stories my co-worker has told me (an avid and **** good bow hunter) says when you can see the whites of their eyes and there there snorting and huffing 10-40 yards away there's nothing else like it. granted they(bow hunts) get to hunt during the rut so i'm sure that plays a big factor.
so in short, I want to get that same or similar experience as a bow hunter yet have enough gun to harvest the animal cleanly and not break the bank in the process.
Well, thing is, the Feds measure against the 26" OAL in the extended configuration. When folded, or collapsed for a telescoping stock, it is legal to be below 26". Your State law may vary, so double check, but it's something that can shorten things somewhat.Quote:
Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer
Another thought, have you considered an "AR10" based pistol? If the hunting regs allow it, a 10" barreled .308 should do the job at close range.
Look at the AR forums on this subject. I may be completely wrong, but I was under the impression you could take a rifle lower and convert it to a pistol legally. But, I am also under the impression that once converted to a pistol you can't convert back to a rifle legally. Then again how would the govt know?
So why would the same apply to a bolt gun, if my interpretation is right?
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I read a ruling from the atf 2011-14 or something like that and it's the other way around. you can turn a pistol into a rifle and back as long as in the pistol configuration there is no stock with the pistol barrel, and when in rifle configuration the oal is 26+ and barrel 16+.Quote:
Originally Posted by shmelton
I now know I cannot convert from a rifle to a pistol....however what I'm wanting to build would be considered a "firearm" (over 26" oal, and 16" barrel) and that's were the law get's gray
we can use semi's just have the magazine limit restrictions. a ar10 pistol build is way beyond what I'd want to spend. I could build a 450 bushmaster or 458 socom upper for my SBR lower and go that route, but that just doesn't appeal to me. don't get me wrong a gen II dpms .308 sbr is on the want list (much smaller platform) owned a gen 1 and I did enjoy it.......until I had to feed it. :beaten:Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliper
we can use semi's just have the magazine limit restrictions. a ar10 pistol build is way beyond what I'd want to spend. I could build a 450 bushmaster or 458 socom upper for my SBR lower and go that route, but that just doesn't appeal to me. don't get me wrong a gen II dpms .308 sbr is on the want list (much smaller platform) owned a gen 1 and I did enjoy it.......until I had to feed it. :beaten:Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliper
You have it backwards. If it started as a pistol then you can convert it to a rifle and then back to a pistol (Thompson court case). If the the receiver was built as a rifle first, it must always stay a rifle unless you do the paperwork/tax/background check to make a SBR or AOW. This is per ATF regs.Quote:
Originally Posted by shmelton
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...stols/download
for those who may be interested
So I decided after hours of searching and reading it is best to just "ask the man".
Sent a formal letter to the ATF to get the straight answer. I'll report back once I get the answer. I'm sure it will be awhile.
Why? My Striker trigger is pretty bad. I shoot only from the bench. My M10 in a shortened stock, even with a 22" barrel, has a good accu trigger and is easy to shoot from the bench. Withg a cut down 16 1/2" barrel it's very manageable. And, a cut down stock and barrel on a later 110 series action is cheapQuote:
Originally Posted by Caliper
r and easier to find than a Striker. I've had Competitors, Encores, Strikers and cut downs- I like the ability to change barrels on Strikers/cut downs. That's my why.
joe b.
Sorry I wasn't clear, my meaning was if you make #4 larger than the dimensions in the statute, NFA doesn't apply. (made from rifle + not smaller than 26" = no tax stamp)Quote:
Originally Posted by foxx
Can you buy a receiver that has never been ASSEMBLED into a rifle? It is my understanding that that is how the AR guys do it, straight out of the factory the raw receiver is registered as a pistol.
yes nortland shooter supply and others sell stripped receivers but there $450+ for basic receivers and close to $600 for the target models. I can buy complete used rifles for $200 if I keep my eyes open for deals.
got a response from the ATF and they sent me a PDF bible. going to go through it later but it's looking like it's not illegal. grey area for sure but not illegal. what little I did read did mention a rifle to pistol a no go though. (being able to shoot with one hand was their verbage) but what I plan to make by their definition is a firearm which thus far appears to be ok as long as the 26/16 rule is followed.
After re reading the info I had read on an AR site I realize I had it backwards. You can turn a pistol lower into a rifle, but once a rifle always a rifle.
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Is an XP-100 out of the question?Quote:
Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer
looking at the Boyd's stock you mentioned earlier, it looks like it could work. Have you thought about some kind of thumbhole stock? you could leave enough behind the hole to be sure of OAL requirements. (maybe even some kind of "under forearm support" to help steady? think "wrist rocket slingshot" support except under the wrist)
I would be worried about the stock breaking under recoil with the thumbhole stock. there isn't alot of material there if you cut the stock off. also the grip angle may be troublesome. the pro varmint has alot of material to work with and is near verticle. between the two i'm sure I could whittle it to my liking (fingergrooves, thumb shelf, ect...)Quote:
Originally Posted by aephilli822
as far as the forearm support I think that would be painful or possibly even break something (on me) I would rather let the gun roll with recoil than take all it has to offer to the wrist and forearm. the heaviest recoil from a handgun i've experienced was my 4" blackhawk with a 260 keith and 27gr of H110. if you don't let it roll with recoil it hurts! (took me awhile to learn how to shoot a single action I was trying to lock into it like a service pistol and control the recoil, no bueno!) going to assume a 165gr at 2200-2400 is going to be a pretty big step up in recoil.
I'd go with a contender before and xp. I really wouldn't mind a contender but they've gotten pricey!Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas10
What I was thinking was cut the stock 2, 3, or 4 inches behind the thumb hole. The support I was envisioning would be under the wrist to counter the weight of the barrel so far out in front of the hand. That way any "muzzle rise" on recoil moves it away (down from) the wrist. I was thinking (what's that smoke smell? LOL) there would be less than normal chance of stock breaking due to it not being butted up against a shoulder. I've seen some neat target stocks with (bondo/wood filler/epoxy?) finger grips molded to the owners hand, with and without thumb holes.Quote:
Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer
My 308 Striker (no muzzle brake) isn't too bad freehand. (maybe because of the center grip?) But when my buddy got an Encore in 30-06 he was scared to shoot it, so I went first. :o First round I tried to shoot it like a 44 Mag or 454 Casull, by letting it "roll at the elbow" and the hammer almost hit me in the forehead. :black_eyed: So I tried shooting it like a 375 H&H or 458 WM, "rolling at the hips" pretending my (not quite locked) arms were the stock. That worked like a charm. A little give at the elbows and a lot of roll at the hips. :peace:
Hard to put into words, but easy to understand when you see/do it.
Strikers are high now, too?Quote:
Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer
Wow! Just looked and they are. Saw a 243 on armslist for 500, maybe rebarrel to 358?Quote:
Originally Posted by aephilli822
aephilli822 now I see what your saying. that would likely help shooting off hand but would be kinda hokey looking. lol I don't plan on shooting it free hand unless it's a now or never shot and even then i'd likely do like you were saying with leaning into it letting the body rock with the recoil holding it also by the forearm. ideally i'd plan on shooting it off a shooting stick or off a tree branch. and during development off bags and a bipod.
was reading an article from mike bellm (a big TC gunsmith) and since I have a 300wm barrel laying around anyways I was going to try it first. however using H4895 with reduced loads. in one of his articles he mentioned that a 300wm loaded in this manor would have less felt recoil than a equal velocity .308. reason being was it takes alot more powder in that big case to equal velocity and it does it at less pressure, yet with more gas volume (due to more powder) and the muzzle brake was more efficient due to that effect. now the only bad side is boys will be boys and I could see myself loading up some stupid 200+gr loads over H1000 and letting the testosterone run the show and play the whole dare game with the buddies. lol
if I actually go with a custom barrel I'm leaning one of 3 ways. one would be a .338 federal throated to take advantage of the long action and to keep the bullets out of the case some, thus giving more useable powder capacity. a .358 win has crossed my mind (.338 has greater bullet options or it would be a front runner) and lastly would be a .375 of some sort....why? seems to be the sweet spot for large game from a "specialty handgun"
I know when I was looking at the TC arms rifle, and questioned pistol stocks, I was told to buy one "as a pistol" and then it was no problem to add a long barrel or stock, but to go the other way was inviting problems as a short barreled rifle. Of course this IS CA.
that for sure is illegal. reason being is you can't go from a rifle to a pistol, clearly states that in the rules. the difference in my idea is i'm planning on keeping a rifle length barrel 16" and i'm keeping it above 26" oal. with a contender you'd have to have much longer than a 16" barrel to keep the gun over 26" as it's a breech weapon and there isn't much distance from the breech to the rear of the grip. a bolt action however adds quite a bit, especially a long action.Quote:
Originally Posted by handirifle
Sounds like it's a gray area and that is what the feds LOVE! I think it's one of those things that have to be proven in court, and they count on us not having the funds/desire to do so.
Are any of you guys familiar with the process are the feasibility of obtaining a BATF Stamp to change a rifle action to a rear grip pistol?
Well if your asking to register your receiver to a SBR "short barreled rifle" that's what the ATF considers them if below 26" or 16" barrel regardless of stock or not. its actually a fairly easy process just taking a long time as of right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by hopdoggandgunman
you just go to the ATF's website and look for forms. find the "form 1" and fill out the form with a check for $200 and hurry up and wait. it used to be a lot easier prior to 41P they had E-forms and you could file under a trust which made the process very simple. I would still recommend doing it under a trust that way you can hand it down to a family member, friend, ect.... upon your death. otherwise the feds will claim and destroy your rifle upon your death if filed as a individual. another nice thing about being a trustee is they can use/posess the item even without your supervision. the laws have changed for the trust's so you'll have to follow the new rules there.
I thankfully got 2 suppressors and a SBR submitted before the cutoff.......still waiting! July 10th, 2016 just to give you an idea of the current wait. granted that's mostly in part due to all the procrastinators who waited till the end to file.:beaten: