Want a change

I have been trying to read a lot here and elsewhere but want help. I have an older model 16 300wsm flat back large shank 4.2 screw spacing. Im wanting to change to maybe a 6.5 creed, 6.5x47 etc. I figure why buy a stealth when I could possibly change what I have. So question is. Do I just change out the bolt head to proper size, order barrel nut wrench, newer large shank nut and lug, choose caliber of barrel (CBI etc.), go / no go's and find stock? I've built a few ar's so this should be similar.

Thanks

I think your approach should be what you want to do long term as well as what you enjoy short term.

While there are some variables and some ways to save money, the basic tools to do the work are going to cost about $150.

To me that is the action wrench (NSS is the best in my view) go gauge (more on that latter) and some odds and ends tool wise as well as the nut wrench.

So if its a one off project, its a fair amount of money to do it. If its a monetary decision then the cost of the stealth is adjusted according to that.

If you enjoy doing it yourself and find satisfaction in it (I do) then that's a personal assessment.

I planned on dong two and have done 3 and I have what I call my test rifle setup that I am going to do one more on and the barrels will go back and forth on that ones (two for sure, maybe 3)

If you have done an AR then this is very much in line with that. Same aspect of if you are careful and follow the steps right its very doable.

Barrels can be had from EA Shaw for $150 (with a wrench) to cut rifled that the pros use for $400, in between is the button rifled that shoot better than most of us can take advantage of.

Setup wise I have gotten my builds down to as low a 1/4 inch, pretty often under 5/8. You can build a solid shooter. I think the mechanical setup is good to 3/8 and the occasional quarter inch is just luck of getting 5 to cross the same. I hand load so I can tune mine. I have shot a bit of match factory in the 308 and its not as good as what I can do.

So yes you can, its all readily available and you just would have to make the decisions on which barrel mfg and type as well as stock type and mfg.

If you have segmented nut you don't have to get one of those nor the lug. I did, I wound up needing a nut anyway so no setback.

I am not sure those pay unless you are getting under 1/2 MOA. Doesn't hurt, adds another $50 or so to the price.

Tool wise I also go with NSS wrench, it has square cutout and that's handy for a 1/2 inch breaker bar if you nut is tight. I am not a hammer on the tool type of guy, it works, just not me.

I also like a Toqrue wrench, I have done too many engines and its ingrained. I also own several so I did not have any out of pocket for that (nor the breaker bar).

If you are experience you can save a bit of money with a Go Gauge. You can put tape on the back and set headspace that way or you can use it and have a tight match chamber.


CBI makes good barrels and they stand behind them so that is a good choice. I prefer to have it all done at one place, if there is any question its not a disagreement between the gun smith who put the threads on and did the chamber and the barrel maker who supplied a blank. NSS is a Criterions rep and they have the rest of the basic tools (not the go gauge). Jim is very good to work with.

One stop barrel done and that's just me, there are some good reliable gun smiths that do that work that stand behind it.

Everyone who shoots Savages needs a way to change and ADJUST barrels anyway. I play with headspace to adjust case capacity towards what I want the rifle to do. Want brass that lasts forever? Run it tight. Want a lil more speed? Loosen it up a tad. If you can boil water you can build a Savage. If you can build an AR you are a Savage rocket scientist.

Thanks for the responses. Im not seeing very many choices for stocks with the 4.2" spacing. Im thinking that may be my limiting factor am I wrong.

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I play with headspace to adjust case capacity towards what I want the rifle to do. Want brass that lasts forever? Run it tight. Want a lil more speed? Loosen it up a tad.

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Wow, It's that easy?

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Originally Posted by BMoe

Thanks for the responses. Im not seeing very many choices for stocks with the 4.2" spacing. Im thinking that may be my limiting factor am I wrong.

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I don't know if there is enough range in the stock holes it makes no difference or?

Need someone to weigh in.

Mine on a newer short action actually measure 4.437

Boyd's says for your stock the 4 7/16 would be the right one. That's 4.437 so neither one.

Gen 1 short is listed as 4.522

Gen 2 short 4.275

http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...Action-Lengths

choate I am pretty sure has that size

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flat back large shank 4.2 screw spacing

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Your action screw spacing is 4.27

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Wow, It's that easy?

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Didn't you know, tight headspace magically increases brass capacity. And lose headspace somehow tightens the freebore to stop gas bypass, thus increasing velocity:o

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Originally Posted by darkker

Didn't you know, tight headspace magically increases brass capacity. And lose headspace somehow tightens the freebore to stop gas bypass, thus increasing velocity:o

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Looser headspace will add capacity. That's sorta like volume math stuff. And tighter headspace will in GENERAL increase brass life. That's metallurgic style math stuff.

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Originally Posted by BMoe

Thanks for the responses. Im not seeing very many choices for stocks with the 4.2" spacing. Im thinking that may be my limiting factor am I wrong.

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XLR Industries element chassis is available for 4.27". MDT I believe also manufactures a 4.27", but best to contact to know for sure.

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Originally Posted by toddcdozer

Looser headspace will add capacity. That's sorta like volume math stuff. And tighter headspace will in GENERAL increase brass life. That's metallurgic style math stuff.

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It ain't so simple.
Loose headspace may allow for the brass to grow, adding very slightly to case capacity. But that is AFTER fireforming, and the first shots to fireform will be lower power than you thought, because for the increased growth you need to rob energy to grow the case.

Increasing headspace also lengthens the distance to rifling. If you can't accommodate for that (308 with 175gr can't do it) then you have a larger jump to lands, and further bleed off g; which lowers velocity again.

If you want more velocity, you raise the pressure. 9 out of 10 times you don't need to add capacity for that, just use a more appropriate powder for the application.
... You know, physics type stuff...

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Originally Posted by darkker

It ain't so simple.
Loose headspace may allow for the brass to grow, adding very slightly to case capacity. But that is AFTER fireforming, and the first shots to fireform will be lower power than you thought, because for the increased growth you need to rob energy to grow the case.

Increasing headspace also lengthens the distance to rifling. If you can't accommodate for that (308 with 175gr can't do it) then you have a larger jump to lands, and further bleed off g; which lowers velocity again.

If you want more velocity, you raise the pressure. 9 out of 10 times you don't need to add capacity for that, just use a more appropriate powder for the application.
... You know, physics type stuff...

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Fair enough.

The difference between go gauge (tight fit) and a filed reject I believe is about .010.

That is almost infinitesimals (I had to look that one up!) brass growth, you can get by far more powder in a case by going to the lighter Hornady brass, Nossler I think as well. That is trim length (and the trim is at the neck)

As far as bullet jump, .010 is also insignificant . I don't make any less than .005 adjustments as the OGVIVE variation is more than enough to make that a mute point (once can be into the lands and another out of the lands with the variant if you are really close)

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Originally Posted by RC20

The difference between go gauge (tight fit) and a filed reject I believe is about .010.

That is almost infinitesimals (I had to look that one up!) brass growth, you can get by far more powder in a case by going to the lighter Hornady brass, Nossler I think as well. That is trim length (and the trim is at the neck)

As far as bullet jump, .010 is also insignificant . I don't make any less than .005 adjustments as the OGVIVE variation is more than enough to make that a mute point (once can be into the lands and another out of the lands with the variant if you are really close)

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My original point was that with a Savage its a variable you can play with. With a non nut gun YA CAN"T. Every gun has an ideal headspace that can best be determined by TESTING not by some guy in a factory. Just one more advantage to having NUTS.:)

So I'm guessing since ive never built a gun, that based on whats being said here, and with a sloppy enough factory chamber, a guy can make his own (sorta) AI chamber by playing with the barrel nut?

Nope, AI means something measurable with more powder.

Thanks again everyone

RC20 is correct, and the proper headspace isn't found by testing, is by chamber specs. The monkey in the factory uses precise gauges to set the correct amount.

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Originally Posted by darkker

RC20 is correct, and the proper headspace isn't found by testing, is by chamber specs. The monkey in the factory uses precise gauges to set the correct amount.

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Then why is there a .006 tolerance if it is done so precisely? Yes headspace can be adjusted to the batch of brass and what you want it to do. Gunsmiths have been setting headspace tight or loose forever. Yes some of that is for grime and tolerances but many prefer a tighter or looser chambers for different things. Personally I run most of my chambers .003-4 UNDER SAAMI depending on virgin brass measurements. Take a .585 case at .004 under SAAMI .01 longer to SAAMI max and there is a difference in case capacity and velocity. It won't be like Ackleyizing a case but it is there. Sorry if my post seemed to say that tight vs loose=Ackley. It doesn't. It can equal a measurable increase in case capacity and higher velocity on the order of 10-15 FPS and brass that acts quite different.
This is on a large diameter case also. A 223 probably isn't measurable. A 223 WSSM is. I should have quantified my original post better and used the term SLIGHTLY. If you would like to dispute the SLIGHTLY part I would suggest looking at a Powley calculator first.

Any amount that the head space is increased, increases the unsupported portion of the web at the case base.

Edit: You can load a case long, adjust the barrel until the pill is jammed into the lands, shoot it, and You would push the shoulder forward and shorten the neck, thus creating Your own wildcat.

"But with the greater unsupported web area, You can expect web separation much sooner!" If not immediately!

And that's the nub of the rub.

You could have the chamber made extra deep, then fire form your brass and have a true wildcat. Of course you then need a custom die.

But when you loosen the barrel you move the chamber out away from the bolt face.

Ergo, there is a defined limit to what you can do and that is why they call the last stop a Field Reject gauge.

And even then if it fails its just a over reamed chamber. Brass will grow a lot, but not blow up (not into fire forming so there may be aspects of that and loads you have to watch.

What you can do within the allowance of tolerances for head space set is not a poor mans AI or a Wildcat.

Even the AI were questionable as to whether or not they were effective. Some say nothing some say a bit.

If you want to improve performance , then do it through powder choice. R17 is a good one in 30-06 (not as good in 308 though it shoots very well)

Boy this thread sure got hijacked.