Primer frustration--- need some advice. I still don't think it's the primer

I have a Savage Model 11 S/S that I swapped out barrels and bolt head to make it a 6.5 Grendel because I love the the round. Now to the problem, lately when I go to the range usually 2-3 rounds out of a 50 round reload will not pop the primer. I can put them in my AR15 in 6.5 Grendel and they pop fine. This only happens in my bolt gun. I have taken the bolt completely apart several times to check each piece, to make sure nothing is broken or dirty. My guns are spotless and they stay that way, but this primer thing is driving me nuts. I have used Rem 7 1/2, CCI#450, Wolf small rifle primers, Federal etc.... Since the trigger has nothing to do with the bolt, could the mainspring in the bolt be bad? If so, from what I understand from Savage they don't make heavier main springs, but I might find one aftermarket. Anyone had this issue and had to fix it. Any hekp would be appreciated. Having the rifle go click in a match is embarrassing, not to mention nerve wracking.The firing pin hits the primer cause there is always a mark, but not hard enough.
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Trapper Glatzer <trappernga@gmail.com>
9:21 PM (4 minutes ago)

to me
The rounds that FTF have dents from the firing pin but don't fire. As said before, only a couple do this and this problem has just started after a few hundred rounds on this gun.
I have been reloading for some time, but am always learning from listening to you guys here. The brass is all new Lapua brass, of which I have several hundred new pieces and I measure the length before reloading but I don't size my new brass. I used some Winchester new brass and had the same reaction with 2 FTF. All my primers are in straight and level using the pictured RCBS Primer Tool. When I reload fired brass, I run the resizing die down till it touches the shell holder and add an 1/8 turn. I keep the AR brass away from the bolt gun brass, by using different colored round plastic boxes. When I am reloading my .20 Practical I use the seater die to knock back the shoulder if necessary.
Robinhood: I don't know how to set up a case headspace from how I am reloading right now. Haven't learned that yet.

Couple things I would do is segregate brass for bolt gun & some for AR. Measure shoulder bump, shoulder may be set back to much, cushioning the primer strike. Make sure the primer is fully seated. I doubt the main spring is weak, going to a heavier spring can lead to punctured primers.

Sounds more like a headspace issue. Not barrel/chamber headspace. (brass too short, gets pushed forward by the firing pin) I would be checking the OAL of the brass that's giving you problems.

I have never had a round not fire, but the primers were backing out of the case when fired. Now when I load new brass I FL resize and seat the bullets into the lands to form the case to my bolt guns chamber. After the cases are formed I neck size only. That seems to have ended my trouble

How experienced are you in reloading. How are you set up to measure your case head space?

A headspace issue as others have already stated.

Segregate the non-firing rounds and measure the headspace with a comparator. Compare measurements with fired brass. I believe you will find that the non-fired rounds have a headspace DL which is too short.

You should only be bumping your shoulder about .001" to .002" from fired brass in a bolt rifle. AR rounds should be bumped .003"- .005" and that is why the rounds will fire in your AR.

Can you post a picture of your fired primers...you say you changed bolt heads?

I had a problem years back with just about the same concern as yours.
I needed to break in one of my rigs and decided to burn some surplus 147gr 308 down the tube as to not future waist any of my more expensive components.
Every now and then I would have a ftf. I knew the surplus primers had harder cups but didn't think they,d give me grief but they did.
I adjusted my trigger and the problem was solved as far as being able to set off the surplus ammo. once my brk in was done, I reset my trigger to a lighter pull.
Don't know if this helps, but from what you've said.....Im kinda leaning towards head space

is the pic you posted of the primers that didnt fire?

LongRange, No Sir, I had the AR Grendel at the range and they shot fine in that. I had tp take the bolt apart otiginally to swap out the bolt heads. Grendel use the PPC bolt face. Plus I will clean the bolt after each range visit. Old habits are hard to break, I'm an old Marine

Now that more info has been added, & if shoulders are not set back to much, I have a hunch that firing pin travel may need adjusted. Possible also the sear is dragging top of trigger, this can happen when a trigger is used that has trigger stop, just need to back off adjustment screw a tad. Semper Fi young Marine.

what short round said but im guessing your firing pin protrusion is to short with the bolt head swap...and i bet the reason it only happen with a few rounds is because those few pieces of brass are sized a little more(looser in your chamber)...id adjust the firing pin a 1/4 turn and i bet that fixes the FTFs.

I greatly appreciate the advice from all of you. Going to the range tomorrow and I will let you know what happens.
Thank you all again,
Trapper

a) Installing barrel without a go gauge, or at least not checking with a go/no-go gauge (excessive headspace).

b) Shoulders moved back too far on case sizing.

c) Inadequate firing pin protrusion. .050" +/- .005"

d) Two of 3 above in combo.

In rare cases, chamber cut too deep, causing outer face of bolt to hit end of barrel when installing thus setting excessive headspace. Bolt will close with resistance when no round in chamber. Bolt face to end of barrel, min of .110" to .125". to give adequate room for gas to escape if case/primer blows, and no interference to bolt face outer edge.

If your over travel is set too short, the sear will drag on the top of the trigger causing light strikes as well.

Robinhood, here's a couple pics of those primers that would not go off
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Head space was checked with a go-no go gauge and is correct.

Do the primers sit above the base of the case, or flush on the misfires? Don't look like light strikes.

How many times did you try and shoot those rounds? More than once....can you post pics of primers that fired?

And a pic of a seated unfired primer....did you uniform your primer pockets? I ask because ive seen primers not seated deep enough do the same thing...the pin hits the primer but knocks the anvil out.

I wish I had kept some of the fired cases, but out of the 100 loaded, those were the ones that FTF. I had another box of 50 loaded and 2FTF and I moved them to my AR Grendel and they fired fine. When they go "click", I try one more time in the bolt gun and I have not had one of those fire on the second try. But all shot when put in thr AR Grendel. Except of course those I brought home to try and get some help figuring this out. Oh yeah, When I load I set each round down on a small mirror cause they are really flat and make sure I have no wobble,I also use my fingernail to make sure they are no edges.
Longrange, I clean the primer pockets each time I use any piece of brass.
To me, the primer looks like the firing pin is hitting hard enough to set them off, the part that throws me is why only a couple of roundss FTF and none of the others????

I did not see if you looked at your trigger over travel.

Do you still have the loaded rounds that FTF? Change the OAL by pulling the bullets out a bit so they jam into the lands. See if they'll fire that way. Probably have to single feed. If they fire that will tell you that the primers are OK. and if they fire, make sure you don't push the shoulders back too far on the brass if resized. If they don't fire, push the primers out and get a good look at them. SMACK them with a hammer. That will tell you for sure. One step at a time till you figure things out. Mike.

T hanks for the advice Mike, I am trying one thing at a time as this post has given me some things to work with. Sometimes the easiest fixes are the obvious ones that we fail to see. I will keep the post up till I find the answer. Raining today so, I may have to wait a few days to make the range again.
But thanks to all

Since it is raining pull the action out of the stock and look to see if the seer is dragging on top of the trigger. If it is then the seer will not be able to move out of the way cocking pin causing interference with the firing pin travel, acting as a brake and reducing speed thus force. This may not be the issue but the reasoning is....the arc of the seer travel follows the radius just to the left of the trigger seer ledge in the picture. This radius is not correct for minimal over travel. Set your over travel to clear the trigger.

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I hate to keep bringing this up but it seems it would be a simple thing to inspect and fix. Very little else explains your issue. You don't even have to go to the range. You can install primers in the cases that failed to fire and strike them in the garage.

Robinhood, just finished taking the trigger assembly apart and couldn't find anything where the seer was rubbing with the trigger so I polished both areas anyway with dremel and flitz. The one thing I did find was when I put everything back together, the trigger was even smoother than it was before. I did change out the accu-trigger spring with a benchrest Savage spring.
Not that had anything to do with it, just seemed like a good time to do it. While looking over the tifle out of the stpock, I noticed that the bolt at the back of the bolt assembly had some space maybe as wide as a dollar bill, so I called Savage and asked them the torque setting for that bolt and they said there wasn't one, so I broke out the Wheeler and torgued that darn thing as tight as I could get it comfortably. Did as you suggested, took 3 pieces of brass loaded only with primers and the rifle popped all three. Not sure if that will be the final fix, or not, but tomorrow is another range day unless it's pouring. Thanks for your advice and hanging in there with me on this.
Trapper
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The only thing I would have done different would have been to make a visual inspection of the trigger at the fired position looking to see if the trigger was contacting the seer. There should be maybe enough rook for a .004 feeler gauge minimum between the two. That set screw in the back of the trigger will increase/decrease the over travel if needed. Good luck Devil Dog.

Could be the picture but your sear looks like it has some strange wear on it. It should be a nice smooth, flat edge with no burrs and it looks like it has a slight channel in the middle and very uneven wear.

^ Ditto! Picture makes it look like it is a "Mess"! :-( ^

Looks like I am gonna break out the dremel and flitz and polish the sear. I just got back from the range and it shot 48 out of 50. I love the caliber and the rifle and will always have it, but when it goers " click", It makes me create some new cuss words. Can someone take a clear picture of what a good clean seer should look like please ? Thanks

Trapper. Lets verify that you have clearance. When you pull the trigger the sear slips off the ledge of the trigger. As the force of the trigger spring pushes the top of the sear down the bottom portion that contacts the trigger makes an ark that follows the large radius of the trigger.

This must have clearance. Verifiable Clearance as in feeler gauge or coke can thickness throughout the travel. It is obtained by backing out the screw minute amounts if there is none. This is important because it can obstruct the movement of the firing pin. If it is not that then you have an obstruction in the bolt or someone has lightened the spring by cutting it or adjusting the cocking piece end or the firing pin spring. I hate to keep pushing this but I want to make sure this is not the problem as you have ruled out head space. If you do verify the clearance and still have the problem, then you need to look at your bolt.

Best picture I can get of the sear. Im not savy enoigh to visually see anything wrong
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Robinhood, whatcha think? Obviously not cocked.

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This is a picture off the internet of a new trigger assembly.

Close the bolt, pull the trigger(empty chamber), release the trigger. Now pull on the trigger again. If it moves enough to clear the trigger throughout the travel you are good. If not turn the screw between the two springs counter clockwise less than an eighth of a turn.

If you do have clearance we need to look at the bolt internals.

I just got back from the range today and saw your response. The trigger does exactly what you said it should do. LOL, Thank goodness too, cause that screw you mentioned has epoxy dabbed on the head. Now, here are two pictures showing all 50 rounds from today. All primers were struck and three FTF. I took one picture so you could see all the primers and then popped up the three that didn't. Now I am going to take the bolt apart again and double check the mainspring and all the other parts as well. It's like a jig saw puzzle, but I will find the secret it holds within.


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There are a few things you need to look for when checking your bot assembly. The cross pin needs to be lined up with the firing pin and you need to have close to .250 of travel. This is best done by making sure your cocking pin is very close to the bottom of the bolt's cut out /window. The firing pin should slide back and forth easily when you shake it. The cocking pin when at the fired position should move ever so slightly side to side when it is at the bottom of the slot(narrowest point). I like to say about .010 of the bottom. Ideally this will give you something close to the 1/4" of firing pin travel. This should be done after verifying you pin protrusion of .050 +or- .005. There are different schools of thought on protrusion and I use what some of the custom action manufacturers suggest or thereabouts.

Am I seeing more than one primer manufacture in the box?

Yes sir, I was using a few Remington 71/2 and the rest were CCI 450's.

Trapper when all else fails change to a hand priming tool instead of the bench mounted one. You may not be getting the primers fully seated which would also cause the problems you are having. If your wolf primers are flush with the brass they are not seating all the way. At least not in my AA brass. Just another thing to consider.

Thanks Earl, for the suggestion, LOL, I have tried about everything else. Spent an hour on the phone today with Savage and they had me take the bolt apart for probably the 10th time, and had me micing every part of the bolt. They are sending me a Savage 7.62x39 bolt head to try and see if that stops the problem. I have a PPG bolt head on it now, cause Savage wasn't making the 7.62x39 bolt head at the time.
I've been using the RCBS primer loader for so long now, I will have to dig my hand primer out of the "extra stuff box". Can't believe I hadn't thought about that idea.
Thanks again,
Trapper

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trapper

I've been using the RCBS primer loader for so long now, I will have to dig my hand primer out of the "extra stuff box". Can't believe I hadn't thought about that idea.
Thanks again,
Trapper

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check post #18 ;)

LongRange, I apologize for not answering that question about "did you uniform your primer pockets?" I clean my primer pockets each time I use that piece of brass. I have a Lyman electric machine for cleaning primer pockets, plus the inside and outside of the mouth. When I get back from the range I immediately resize the brass to knock out the primers, and check the length to see if I have to do any trimming. Then off to the ultrasonic cleaner and then the tumbler for clean brass. Blow out the brass with hot air from a hair dry. I then put them in marked boxes until I am ready to use. Saying all that, I'm still not sure if I answered your question. I push the primers out and clean the pocket, not sure if that is uniforming the primer pocket. Just do the best I can LOL.
Thanks,
Trapper

You are going to know your rifle real well when this is said and done.

Robinhoood, you made me spill my coffee in my lap, and you are sooooo right. LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

You are going to know your rifle real well when this is said and done.

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LMAO...yes he will!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trapper

LongRange, I apologize for not answering that question about "did you uniform your primer pockets?" I clean my primer pockets each time I use that piece of brass. I have a Lyman electric machine for cleaning primer pockets, plus the inside and outside of the mouth. When I get back from the range I immediately resize the brass to knock out the primers, and check the length to see if I have to do any trimming. Then off to the ultrasonic cleaner and then the tumbler for clean brass. Blow out the brass with hot air from a hair dry. I then put them in marked boxes until I am ready to use. Saying all that, I'm still not sure if I answered your question. I push the primers out and clean the pocket, not sure if that is uniforming the primer pocket. Just do the best I can LOL.
Thanks,
Trapper

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Well you did answer and the answer is no lol....uniforming primer pockets is a means of making all of your PPs the same depth by using an end mill to trim brass out of the bottom of the pocket to achieve a uniformed depth and a nice flat bottom.

But also in post 18 i said(and as earl said)that a primer not seated deep enough will cause a miss fire because the firing pin is just knocking the anvil out of the primer cup...as earl suggested...primer your brass with your hand primer... and pay attention...you will kinda feel the primer hit the bottom and then just give it a little pressure to make sure the anvil is bottomed out in the pocket and i bet every round fires.

And i apologize for not being clearer in that post.

LongRange, be careful giving me all your secrets, as one day I might be able to shoot with ya. LOL Midwayusa has a RCBS Primer pocket uniformer that screws into the "CaseMate" electronic tool For cleaning the inside, outside of the case mouths as well as cleaning the primer pocket. Will this "uniform primer pocket cleaner " do more than just clean the pocket? Sorry to keep asking questions.
Thanks,
Trapper

as long as you get the one that is carbide and only designed to cut on the end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trapper

LongRange, be careful giving me all your secrets, as one day I might be able to shoot with ya. LOL Midwayusa has a RCBS Primer pocket uniformer that screws into the "CaseMate" electronic tool For cleaning the inside, outside of the case mouths as well as cleaning the primer pocket. Will this "uniform primer pocket cleaner " do more than just clean the pocket? Sorry to keep asking questions.
Thanks,
Trapper

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do your self a favor if your going to buy uniforming tools and buy GOOD tools...these are good tools....i think brownells/sinclair make an adapter that screws into the case mate...

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadin...720-63188.aspx

personally i prefer the K&M tools and chuck them in a cordless drill...if using a cordless drill get one thats max RPM is 400 or less...slow is good when uniforming brass...also note the price on the RCBS and on the k&m...

https://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/p...tion-tool.html

21st century shooting makes good tools as well...and yes you can use the uniforming tool to clean pockets but as robinhood said make sure its a carbide cutter...as far as shooting with me...thats not hard to do LOL!

if your heart is set on the RCBS tool shoot me a PM...i have one ill give you and also through in the laymen small and large uniformers...all POS's IMHO.

So far LongRange and Earl win the "solve the problem prize, at least so far. Robinhood wins a big prize for putting up with all my questions and pictures. Last night I took 100 Lapia pcs of brass that had been primed with the table top RCBS Priming tool and I broke out the hand ptimer and ran each piece of brass thru as if I was priming. Probably 85% had that little extra movement that you could barely feel, but movement there was. I loaded 50 rounds and went to the range today and LongRange was correct, every round fired. I haven't popped a beer yet, but ot's been a long trip to get to this point. Plus I learned about uniforming my priner pockets. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. Watch channel 276 on Direct tV tonight for a show called " The Science of Stupid" and one day I will be on there.
LongRange, whenever I get an interest in something, I always learn the hard way and have a workshop filled with POS. I think we have all done that one.
You're the guys that make this site what it is and I don't worry about being made to feel stupid for asking a question.
Thanks again to all you guys for your help,
Trapper

Great journey. I have always used a hand primer and never experienced this. I have had a trigger drag and cause misfires though.

if you REALLY want to know whats going on when you seat primers get one of these...

https://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/p...mer_gauge.html

seating primers is a bigger deal than most ppl realize.....

LR, There are so many powders, primers and bullets, that it's confusing enough to just read what everyone likes. Like they say, put 10 guys in a room and ask one question and you'll get 10 different answers and each one will be justified to their satisfaction. LOL KM shooting maikes qute a few things I would love to have, but I'm not that serious about my shooting.

Your right about that...and of the 10 talking i wouldnt believe any of them... id find out for myself.