Annealing vs Neck Tension question.

I worked up a load for my 223 recently using 69 g SMK, IMR 3031 and Federal Brass, but this time decided to annealed the brass (first time) and did it AFTER U.Sonic clean, tumble, wash and dry. I noticed at lot more "friction" in the neck while seating the bullets and, not surprisingly, it shot like doo-doo. Best groups were .650 at 100 yds. Not exactly stellar for a bullet with the reputation of the SMK.

Not satisfied, I reloaded the same brass, in the same order, WITHOUT cleaning, with exactly the same ingredients, in exactly the same order with respect to charge weight, and noticed a much better consistency while seating bullets. They went in smooth and predictable. I shot again, this time at 200 yds. Best 3 shot group occurred at book max load and measured .214 :cool:

In call cases, the UNCLEANED brass shot tighter groups than it did when cleaned and freshly annealed, albeit two weeks later, but the weather was similar.

My Hornaday reloading manual 9th addition starts the paragraph on Case Cleaning by saying "not every reloader does this…" and briefly describes tumble and U.S. cleaners, but little else.

My IDEAL reloading manual (1949) starts the paragraph on Case Cleaning quite differently; " We know of no good reason why anyone who is reloading for his own use would bother washing the brass"…. and goes on to state that accuracy "MAY fall off after a cartridge has been reloaded after a years worth of shooting"…and then perhaps washing the brass would be beneficial.

I think I am going to be adding brass annealing to my case prep checklist, but would like to know at what stage of case prep it should be done, how often ( I am only neck sizing and the brass grows in length very little) and what step should be accomplished afterwards so that neck tension remains predictable after annealing operations? Is case/neck lube the best route, or maybe tumbling after annealing to polish the inside of the neck?

Again, I am shooting an off the shelf, stock model .223 Rem chambered Model 12 Varmint, in case this matters.

As always I appreciate any help and advise you guys can offer.:adoration:

I anneal after cleaning, before sizing. I plan to do it every 2 or 3 firings, I haven't decided yet, but I know 4 was too many. That how many my brass had on it when I started annealing. Seating bullets, some went in like butter, some were harder. Very inconsistent. After annealing and sizing, they all seated nice and smooth.

1) separate & sort brass
2) Punch out primers, inspect
3) toss in tumbler
4) anneal, inspect again
5) size 'em up, inspect again.
6) reload, shoot, repeat as needed.
7) Convince wife brass is worn and need new brass because it's cheaper to reload instead of buy factory ammo

i anneal every second firing...i size then anneal then stainless steel tumble then all the other steps.

Good info here. For what it's worth, I've noticed an improvement in my groups if, before annealing, I run a brass bore brush attached to my drill into the case necks. It cleans the carbon out leaving good clean brass for the torch heat. I usually re-anneal after the 4th loading.

I have found that when to anneal depends on the brand of brass. If you start getting spring-back when sizing your case necks and bumping the shoulder it is time to anneal. I use a Wilson seater die and arbor press. I have noticed another indication annealing is needed when seating the bullet it is not smooth and takes more than usual pressure to seat the bullet.

Following is some interesting info on annealing.

http://www.kenlightmfg.com/cartridgecaseannealer.htm

It's the ultrasonic cleaning which is causing your issue. Put some mica or whatever in the neck before seating the bullet. Annealing should be performed before sizing.

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Originally Posted by CavReconScout

It's the ultrasonic cleaning which is causing your issue. Put some mica or whatever in the neck before seating the bullet. Annealing should be performed before sizing.

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just curious why you think the US cleaning is causing any issues? and sizing before or after depends on how much you anneal your brass.

Interesting ideas here. IF the U.S. is causing the problem I am seeing, it must be a reaction between the solution I use and the heat from the flame. I use a fairly strong mix of Lemishine and dish soap to clean, then tumble in corn media with a little polish powder provided with the media in a small packet with no label.

What about using lube in the neck the first time after annealing?

Thanks for all your help, guys.

There is talk about the two similar metals "welding" together when the case necks are cleaned. I'm not arguing one point or another. The theory goes if you clean your case neck to the bare metal then load the copper bullet the two will bond. This "like new" cleaning cases after every firing is a relatively new thing and I have not seen any published information on the topic. One popular fix is to move the bullet in .005 before you head to the range. I have not witness this in the 22 caliber but believe I have in 30 cal.

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Originally Posted by Texas10

Interesting ideas here. IF the U.S. is causing the problem I am seeing, it must be a reaction between the solution I use and the heat from the flame. I use a fairly strong mix of Lemishine and dish soap to clean, then tumble in corn media with a little polish powder provided with the media in a small packet with no label.

What about using lube in the neck the first time after annealing?

Thanks for all your help, guys.

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i stainless steel tumble every time...i use the same solution you are and have never had an issue...but my loaded ammo never sits around for long periods of time.
i think one reason you felt more friction is because you had less spring back in your necks after annealing which means you had more neck tension...also you are right about the annealing AFTER cleaning...try sizing then annealing then cleaning next time and reduce your neck tension a little.

The real problem with ultrasonic or stainless pins is the brass is clean and the cleaning removes a little of the zinc out of the brass on the surface which causes the bullet to have perfect contact with the brass and hence hard seating. I run a brass brush and turn it in the neck to roughen the surface slightly like honing a cylinder in an engine and then the bullet seems to seat with normal pressure. I have tried all the lubes on the neck and then seat but it didn't help that much.

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Originally Posted by jonbearman

The real problem with ultrasonic or stainless pins is the brass is clean and the cleaning removes a little of the zinc out of the brass on the surface which causes the bullet to have perfect contact with the brass and hence hard seating. I run a brass brush and turn it in the neck to roughen the surface slightly like honing a cylinder in an engine and then the bullet seems to seat with normal pressure. I have tried all the lubes on the neck and then seat but it didn't help that much.

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once again ive never had this issue....all of my bullets seat smooth...the limishine is what draws the zinc out of the brass...if your getting gray spots on the tumbled or US cleaned brass then your using to much limishine. i was doing the same thing with the brass or bronze brush and starting getting higher than normal ESs and figured out that the brushes were scratching or honing as you put it the insides of my necks and while they seated smooth the release was a whole different story. also my experiences with neck lubes were the same as yours.

something else for you guys having seating issues...are you sure its not doughnuts??? take a fired case and drop a bullet in the neck...it should drop right through or slide in with VERY MINIMAL effort(your fingers)if the bullet stops its doughnuts at the shoulder/neck junction.

Hmmmm…That similar metals fusing idea may have some merit, Robinhood. I have noticed that after a good cleaning in the U.S with Lemishine that the inside of the necks are at lot more copper colored instead of the nice brass color of the outside of the necks.

Any theories as to what is going on there? Is the Zinc being torched out of the surface of the metal INSIDE the case by the powder heat/blast?

I get the most consistent seating with a clean, neck sized only case that has NOT been annealed, adding weight to the spring back theory. Perhaps the occasionally weaker neck tension I experience when seating a bullet is an indication of a work hardened neck that is springing back more than usual and an indication of the need to anneal?

Sound reasonable?

As for doughnuts, I'm supposed to be on a diet, so those are out of the question for now. Too bad, we have a world famous donut shop in town…LOL.

Since brass is an alloy made up of copper and zinc, and somehow (I doubt this) you are removing the zinc from the alloy by whatever means, then the bullet jacket and the case neck would be the same metal. So, the dissimilar metal fusion theory goes out the window. Am I missing something here?

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Originally Posted by LongRange

something else for you guys having seating issues...are you sure its not doughnuts??? take a fired case and drop a bullet in the neck...it should drop right through or slide in with VERY MINIMAL effort(your fingers)if the bullet stops its doughnuts at the shoulder/neck junction.

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Now see i was always told that when a bullet dropped right into a fired case it was due to a large chamber.
On guns with tight neck chambers you will have difficulty doing that. Where the bullet goes in with slight resistance
is what (we) call a no turn neck. I frankly dont understand lots of things i hear nowdays.
I recently got an RCBS case prep machine because i hate case prep. That stainless wire
brush wont make the necks look new unless you grind away for an hour. Ive never used the stainless media and frankly dont
plan on buying another machine so i can. I have had serious welding issues with ammo that had laid around a couple years.
I mentioned that awhile back. I also dont see how its possible to measure neck tension on a loaded round. Especially if the thing
is gonna weld itself to the case over a period of time. Ive shot lots of old ammo over the years, especially old military stuff.
Ive even pulled lots of 308s and 06s and just reseated hunting bullets using the old components. Why didnt those bullets weld to the case?

Ever found 2 copper pennies in the bottom of a coffee can? Some I have found couldn't have been soldered better. Add ammonium-nitrates, humidity. I totally buy into the welded or fusing theory.

Though it would take some time.