Savage Model 11 - Bolt is hard to open , need instructions on where to polish

Hello all -

I bought the Savage from Cabelas, used, for my wife and kids, it is the Lady Hunter model in 6.5 Creedmoor.

I installed the EGW # 41000 scope base mount and trimmed the front base screw to avoid binding the bolt. I didn't touch the three other screws.

I threaded a 1/4 x 28 TPI nut onto the front action screw and shaved off two threads and backed out the nut to open threads for reassembly. The front action screw should be clear from the receiver.

As you can probably tell where I am going with this....

The bolt is hard to cycle after dry fire, I haven't fired the gun yet but I assume a piece of fired brass isn't going to make it easier.

I'd like to get this solved, here is what my search of the FAQ / Forum / Internet has yielded.

• Not much information on how to disassemble the Model 11 bolt on the forums, the biggest difference I can see outright is the lack of a spring in the BAS / cocking sleeve area and the cocking indicator being dead center in the BAS. What does that spring do in the 110 and why isn't it needed in the M11?
• So no joy for a bolt lift kit based on the cocking indicator
• I have the bolt torn down but again, not much illustrations (video or photos) of other Model 11 bolts with those handy arrows pointing to the areas that should be stoned/polished/flitzed/buffed out.
• I have some lapping compound and a cut case that can be spring loaded to provide rearward pressure on the lugs but I don't want to get radical if there is a reason not to do this (headspace).
• Some users have cut a couple coils off the firing pin spring, I do not want to do this.

This gun isn't going to anybody's shop to be timed and trued, I want to make this a better unit with some diligence and elbow grease not extra $$$. I'm not being unreasonable, I don't think :p, as in my opinion guns should come from the factory without a need to be tuned in.

I will go through the effort to take photos and video if that is what it takes to get the ball rolling but I am hoping that someone already has the photos from their bolt slickup on a Model 11.

Thanks in advance for your replies and guidance -

BB

Update 7-26-13 -

Here is a video of the bolt slick up thus far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoPtHPjt2c8

Do you have two springs in your bolt or only one?

Any part of the bolt internals that rubs metal to metal can be polished. The bolt, by design is hard to lift after firing. Polishing the cocking ramp and the shaft of the cocking piece pin to a mirror finish can help. I buff the outside of the spring and also make sure there are no rough or protruding edges on the ends of the spring so they don't catch on the BAS when the bolt is cocked.

I cut 1.5 coils on my trigger on my 111 .270 non accutrigger model. Made it MUCH better. As far as the bolt hard to open.... I would polish the bolt as suggested. I have used 1200 grit sand paper and gun oil and basically wet sanded the bolt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thomae

Do you have two springs in your bolt or only one?

Any part of the bolt internals that rubs metal to metal can be polished. The bolt, by design is hard to lift after firing. Polishing the cocking ramp and the shaft of the cocking piece pin to a mirror finish can help. I buff the outside of the spring and also make sure there are no rough or protruding edges on the ends of the spring so they don't catch on the BAS when the bolt is cocked.

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Thank you for the reply, can you indicate which of the part identifying numbers you polished/buffed up using the diagram I hashed together below. Also as you can see this model only has the main spring in the bolt assembly, so 1 spring.

Thx

BB

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps31df28a2.jpg

First of all, when I say "buff" I mean with a cotton wheel and some type of rouge or polishing compound, not any type of sandpaper.

Some time ago, I invested (it was not TOO expensive) in a set of six different cotton wheels that i use on my grinder (turning it to a buffer) with six different grits of polishing compound (rouge) that can be used for anything from (using the most course compound) taking rust off ferrous metal to (using the finest) buffing to a true mirror finish. It does take time and patience, but you get some very smooth metal surfaces without taking off much physical metal. Be careful of edges, however, it is easy to round them over.

Let's see if I can remember everything that I have done to my bolts. (In no particular order)
1. Buff the sides of the entire shaft and the sides of the button of the cocking piece pin (12A)
2. Buff the outside and inside(if possible) of 12D cocking piece sleeve
3. File/grind/sand the ends of mainspring 11D so it is smooth with no protruding burrs buff smoother as needed/desired.
4. Buff the sides of 11D mainspring so there is less friction between the spring and the interior of the bolt body.
5. Buff the interior (as best I can) of 12G bolt body to smooth it as much as possible (I use a dremel and small buffing wheels)
6. Buff the exterior of 11G firing pin.
7. buff the cocking ramp (the diagonal part of the roughly triangular hole in the bolt body (12G)
8. When I reassemble everything, I move 12I front baffle washer from the rear of the front baffle (12J) to the front of the front baffle so that the cocking action does not tend to wipe off all the grease on the back of the lugs of 12K Bolt face (They don't need much, but a little is helpful)
9. I also polish the primary engagement surfaces (the ramp where the bolt handle (12C) and the rear baffle(12B) rub together as you lift the bolt.
10. If I have a flat forward end on your BAS (12S)(which you won't with the protruding cocking indicator/rear of firing pin style of bolt, but older bolts can have this feature), I try to polish and buff the machining marks out of it.

I think that's all.

Subscribed....

To start; don't treat your Savage like a Remington, because it is not. Lapping the lugs will only prematurely wear out the bolt head, and will accomplish nothing as far as smoothing out the bolt travel, and make better contact. The Savage design uses a floating bolt head, and will make 100% contact on firing. There is still a way to use a gunk button (AKA bolt lift kit.) with the accu-stock rear cocking indicator guns. SSS sells one.

If you want a gun that is perfectly smooth and needs no addition work well your in a dream world. Even high end custom actions such as Pandas, Bats and so forth that run $1300 need some work. Bad news is no matter how much polishing you do to your Savage parts it will not "slick up." The hard bolt lift associated with Savage actions is due to geometric configurations in the action that need cut at different angles, to achieve a truly smooth bolt lift.

Send your bolt and action to SSS and have it trued and timed. I did and the action is buttery smooth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1983Weatherby

I cut 1.5 coils on my trigger on my 111 .270 non accutrigger model. Made it MUCH better. As far as the bolt hard to open.... I would polish the bolt as suggested. I have used 1200 grit sand paper and gun oil and basically wet sanded the bolt.

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I had heard of others cutting coils from their firing pin / main spring but not the trigger. Since I am not going to be the main handler of this gun I do not desire to modify the springs at all - thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

To start; don't treat your Savage like a Remington, because it is not. Lapping the lugs will only prematurely wear out the bolt head, and will accomplish nothing as far as smoothing out the bolt travel, and make better contact. The Savage design uses a floating bolt head, and will make 100% contact on firing. There is still a way to use a gunk button (AKA bolt lift kit.) with the accu-stock rear cocking indicator guns. SSS sells one.

If you want a gun that is perfectly smooth and needs no addition work well your in a dream world. Even high end custom actions such as Pandas, Bats and so forth that run $1300 need some work. Bad news is no matter how much polishing you do to your Savage parts it will not "slick up." The hard bolt lift associated with Savage actions is due to geometric configurations in the action that need cut at different angles, to achieve a truly smooth bolt lift.

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I do not mean to compare the Savage to any other maker's gun and I appreciate the advise on lapping the Savage lug/bolt area, I won't do that then. I do not see a part listed on the SSS website for a bolt lift kit for cocking indicator bolts. I will call.

Again I appreciate the advise on the Savage design, I carry the "slick up" term over from my dealing with semi-auto gas guns and their mechanical designs. I assumed that reducing friction overall would make a difference on the bolt lift - I am not seeking to make bolt travel any smoother only lift. I will not be recontouring the angles in any way but I do need to get after the metal to metal surfaces to see what difference can be achieved with polishing alone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by airdale

Send your bolt and action to SSS and have it trued and timed. I did and the action is buttery smooth.

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I do not intend to spend too much money on this gun, I am only into it for $ 450.00 so based on the bolt lift issue I want to come out on the other end at no more than $500.00 total.

I was willing to drop 10 bucks on a lift kit and maybe even 40 more on a longer/extended bolt handle but that will be it.

Thanks for the replys, I will post photos later today of all the bolt pieces before polishing as well as a video showing current force needed to cam over the bolt handle.

BB

I should have added that all my polishing and attention to detail help, but don't result in a "buttery smooth" one finger bolt action by any means. It cleans up some of the "grittiness" and does make it smoother, but both 82boy and airdale are correct.

1. Don't lap the lugs.
2. SSS timing and true (from all the feedback I have heard - I have never had it done to one of my rifles) will make the action much smoother.

grease the bolt.. lightly...
work the bolt 5000 times
then it'll be smoooooth..

I would follow thomae's first suggestions. put a good quality medium to light lube inside the cleaned and polished internals of the bolt. Adjust the spring 1 to 1.5 turns of the rear cocking indicator(?). The lift kit does improve the bolt lift if you machine the BAS or add a spacer. spend extra time polishing the part of the cocking piece pin window on the bolt housing. I have two that operate with my pinky that have never failed me in any way.

In addition to the good info above, a longer bolt handle will help too. I started using Frog Lube for the bolt mechanism, esp in the cocking ramp, and as others have noted it seems to get "absorbed" by the metal and does seem to provide smoother operation.

Unless there is something wrong with your gun you will not get much improvement without a T&T... I would not even get a kit without a T&T. I have 2 rifles now and one in the way. One of them has the t&T from SSS and it is very smooth. I put the liftkit from the SSS one into the one that dont have the T&T and I could not tell the difference with or without the kit. These 2 rifles are the same action and were build a few thousands rifles in between.

Quote:

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Unless there is something wrong with your gun you will not get much improvement without a T&T... I would not even get a kit without a T&T

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Pretty bold statement with hundreds if not thousands of savage owners finding the opposite to be true.

OP, You say you are using a fired piece of brass correct. Look up primary extraction issues and test for that. That is one issue that is addressed by Fred with a T&T. Many have had success with a new bolt handle from SSs. You can always contact Savage as well.

Bennybone.....

the thread is getting off into a lot of side lanes and no one brought this back up so I will......

In your original post you stated you trimmed the front base screw and left the other 3 alone? If that is correct then you didn't trim the correct screw, it's the second from the front that will interfere with the bolt lug if the screw is too long. The front screw, if too long, will sometimes damage the barrel thread. If the screw is interfering (second one) you can usually see a little marring on the OD of the lug, take a look.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stangfish

Pretty bold statement with hundreds if not thousands of savage owners finding the opposite to be true.

OP, You say you are using a fired piece of brass correct. Look up primary extraction issues and test for that. That is one issue that is addressed by Fred with a T&T. Many have had success with a new bolt handle from SSs. You can always contact Savage as well.

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Stang - Negative, I haven't fired the gun yet. The issue with bolt lift occurs when the firing pin is dropped (dry fire).

I went to a local gunstore today after work and they had some other Savage models and all exhibited the same issue while dry firing.

Thx,

BB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Speedrat1

Bennybone.....

the thread is getting off into a lot of side lanes and no one brought this back up so I will......

In your original post you stated you trimmed the front base screw and left the other 3 alone? If that is correct then you didn't trim the correct screw, it's the second from the front that will interfere with the bolt lug if the screw is too long. The front screw, if too long, will sometimes damage the barrel thread. If the screw is interfering (second one) you can usually see a little marring on the OD of the lug, take a look.

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This is exactly what I am needing to know, thanks! I will pull the 2nd screw from the scope base mount and shave a little off that as well.

I would have figured EGW would have engineered the length of the screws they package with the base mount to not interfere but just to rule it out as a possibility I am taking off 2 threads.

UPDATE:

Okay so I pulled the 2nd screw from the base mount and took two threads off of it and reinstalled. I have observed that the bolt can now be manipulated with one finger up to a certain point. Then a palm is required to cam the bolt over.

But an improvement has been achieved by shorting the base mount screw - THANKS!

I will post videos to illustrate tomorrow.

I am still going to polish the bolt to see if further improvement can be achieved at the point of cam over.

BB

I think by your description you're bolt effort sounds pretty well "normal". It'll slick up with use! All that's let then is get out and break it in! :)

Well, project slick up came to a dead stop when the firing pin lock washer went flying through the air never to be seen or heard from again.

That is the thing about working with springs under pressure, it poses an added challenge.

Range trip cancelled for this weekend. :rolleyes:

BB

Guess you forgot the "Ziplock" bag?

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Originally Posted by FW Conch

Guess you forgot the "Ziplock" bag?

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That is a good idea. I was just in a rush and figured I could do it right.

Oh well I have 5 days to sit and think about my mistake. :p

BB

I assume you did this in your home, if so get you one of them magnets from harbor freights and start sweeping... or better yet, empty and clean the vacuum cleaner good, then vacuum around the place then empty in container and use the magnet. Not only you better your chances to find the part but the wife will be very happy!!!!

The way I smooth out a rough action is to get a bottle of jewelers rouge. Put it on every part of the bolt that contacts a moving part. Sit in front of the tv and work the action till I realize I've been doing it all day. It'll help smooth out an action nice. Clean with some beak cleaner and then I use a mix of blue goop and some moly from the plant. Buttery smooth

I found the trigger sting from my rifle hanging off my curtain in the reloading room, about 8 months later lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nastynatesfish

I found the trigger sting from my rifle hanging off my curtain in the reloading room, about 8 months later lol.

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Savage is sending out a new part, it'll be in next week.

I'm sure the lost washer will materialize shortly thereafter :p

I went searching for some Moly Lube, none to be found at Cabelas or Army/Navy/Etc...

Thanks for the tips on working the action, once I get this all pieced back together if the bolt lift is still tough I will work the action handle up and down a couple of thousand times.

BB

I work in a copper mine that pulls alot of moly also. I just take some. If you'd like to try some of my stuff. Pm me. Ill get something out to you. Google search BLU GOOP

The longer bolt handle will be a nce addition too. Midways sells them for under $30, stainless or black

UPDATE: I added a video to the original post that follows along with where I am at to this point.

I need a favor - Can someone lookup for me in a gunsmith manual what the overall length from tip of the firing pin to base of the cocking pin should measure. And or provide measurements for factory settings of the adjustable firing pin.

If anyone cares to share or PM me with your experiences on adjusting the firing pin for optimal travel and spring pressure as it relates to 100% functionality and reducing bolt lift I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

BB

Here is how to adjust your fire pin:
http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...rotrusion-Data

In a nutshell fire pin optimum length is .035. There is more to it, just read the article.

Thanks Nandy!

BB

I got the bolt put back together today, oil up the bolt assembly and reinstalled it in the gun.

No difference in bolt lift force :eek:

Ordering an extended bolt handle and calling this good. At least I learned alot about how the gun is put together.

Thanks all for your advice and guidance, I will keep the gun handy during night time television and work the action.

BB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

Bad news is no matter how much polishing you do to your Savage parts it will not "slick up."

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Hate to say it. but....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

Hate to say it. but....

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....You told me so :black_eyed:

Thanks

BB

Can I join in?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nandy

you will not get much improvement without a T&T...

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LOL!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nandy

Can I join in?



LOL!

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:deadhorse:

Yes you May, I prefer my humble pie warm with a side of ice cream!

I didn't think there was any problem that a good bit of polishing and "mirroring" couldn't overcome, then I met the Savage bolt.

BB

Word of advise, a longer bolt handle will make a bit of difference. Just don't get one of the Savage factory BT handles they are way too heavy and will cause other problems especially with an accu-trigger set at low weights. Find one of the aftermarket handles, or grind the knob down of your handle and thread it, and get a PT&G knob.

if you can weld
you can cut your original & add an inch
pretty easy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bennybone

:deadhorse:

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It is all in good spirits! However the horse is far from dead, give it a week and you will see another soul asking the same question. I think we all have been there, but after the T&T I had done to my first savage I swore every other action will get that treatment. That is the bad thing about good things, once you try them you have to have it... lol! Have a good day!