CRYOGENIC Treatments to Barrels

I have a question on Cryogenic treatment to barrels?

I have been reading about this, I fine lots of Pro's and Con's on this subject.

1. Do I gain anything buy doing this to my barrels and actions?

2. Is there a performance increase in velocity in a treated barrel vs a no treated action and barrel?

3. The community around cryogenic treatments is positive about this, for cleaning is easier on the shooter and barrel. Can improve on the life of the barrel are for rounds down range, tighter group sizes from it.

I am sure that I have more questions on this subject, this may have been done here already. I have been bitten by the Savage bug, and have acquired 20 some different configurations, needing help on this as I have some new unfired barrels.

Thanks for all who are helping me out on this ahead of time.

Shoot straight, be safe.

Cryo treatment is basicaly a hardening process. I have seen it used on alluminum and chromoly. The claims of wear resistance are true. Accuracy and ease of cleaning might be true if lapped and or microplished but I cant see how a change in grain structure or hardness would impact that.

Cyro on a rifle barrel is a "snake oil " sale :(. "Nitrideing", on the other hand seems to have great merit:) !

Had one done a few years ago and honestly could not tell any difference at all in accuracy or any other aspect of the rifle. Nitride seems the better alternative.

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Originally Posted by FW Conch

Cyro on a rifle barrel is a "snake oil " sale :(. "Nitrideing", on the other hand seems to have great merit:) !

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I am currently working on a build and ended up with a stainless barrel and blued action so started looking at "barrel" treatments so as to end up with a barrel and action that look the same. Anyway, after a great deal of reading and two phone calls to Daniel Lilja of famed Lilja Barrels from whom my barrel came from I came to two conclusions.

First...pretty much all of the educated people I talked to and read material from agreed that cyo treatments for barrels do nothing to improve life, accuracy or ease of cleaning...I spoke to two barrel manufactures in addition to Lilja (Pac-Nor and Shillen)...all three said the same thing basically "there's no actual evidence cryo treatments work". The only people I really found that support cryo treatments was the people selling it and the magazine writers that were provided barrels (from the sellers) to test.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilj...#deepcryogenic

That being said, both Daniel Lilja and Jay at Pac-Nor said they had tested forms of "Nitrideing" including Melonite...and both agreed that it has some possible redeeming values...hardened surface that is many times harder and slicker than traditional metal (which actually results in less velocity), possibly easier to clean...they both agreed it didn't likely increase accuracy.

I decided to give the Melonite treatment a shot on this project on the barrel (Lilja stainless barrel), action and bolt housing...I'll let ya know in the fall if I think it's an improvement.

I have done some playing with cryogenic freezing of barrels, and I must say there is something there to it. To anyone that would say that Cryogenic freezing is "snake oil" I would ask them if they have ever heard of Krieger barrels? John Krieger must think there is something to this process, as ALL Krieger barrels are cryogenically frozen before they are machined/drilled. Krieger use to cryogenically freeze the barrels twice, once before machining, and then after, because they believe so much in the process. They stopped double freezing barrels as of extra cost, time, and little added benefit of freezing then a second time. I think John Krieger knows something about barrels, as right now there is a 16 month wait for a barrel blank, and look at equipment list on Benchrest match's, where the highest amount of accuracy on the planet is at, and you will see more Krieger barrels than anything else.

The benefits to a barrel that is cryogenically frozen, is it will machine smoother. (Ask any machinist who has machined both materials.) With this smoother machining you will get less tool push off, and a batter product. The barrel will also gain a couple of points in hardness, as an additional benefit. This would also attribute to less tool wear. As far as other claims, of them being easier to clean, this is a subjective question, I would say in my experience, the brush, and patches push through a bit smoother. I would not say that they collect any less/more material between shots.

On better barrel life, this again is a subjective question, as some barrels just last longer than others and there is no rhyme or reason to it. I have talked to people that have claimed that they have. On velocity , this again is a subjective question, and my experience say no they shoot about the same velocity. On accuracy, again this is subjective. The problem is with these questions is that each barrel has its own personality, and every one will behave differently. To honestly evaluate this process, it would take a large test with at least 50 identical barrels (25 of each ) shot with the same cases, powder, primers, bullets as so forth. Most companies don't have the wants or means to do this.

One thing I can say about cryogenic treatment, that can not be said about the others is, I have never heard of a single case where this detrimentally hurt the barrel. Either people say that they saw an improvement, or they did not, but I have never heard of anyone saying that a barrel shot worse. (I have heard a quite few stories of people having barrels salt bath nitrating/ meloniting, and the barrels being forever ruined.)

Now with that all said, cryogenic works in barrels, but it other areas, I would say it is a waste of time, such as triggers, springs, or actions. These parts just do not see a benefit to the process. I would state that prior to being broached, formed, or made they might see a slight benefit to it. An action only needs to hold the barrel, and the sighting device, in a consistent manner. Accuracy happens in the barrels.

This comes from Lilja's web site.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm
"What is your opinion of the deep cryogenic processing of barrels?...The only benefits that we feel are likely to result from the treatment are possibly a longer barrel life and a slight increase in machinability."

This comes from Shilen's web site.
http://www.shilen.com/faq.html#question1
"Should I "cryo" my barrel?...but we can safely say that it is not detrimental to the barrel either."

This comes from Kriger's web site.
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/FAQ-c1246-wp3352.htm
"Do you recommend Salt Bath Nitriding... However there are some concerns that must be understood if you move forward with this. The temperature that the steel is brought up to during this process is within the range that can remove the temper from the steel if not properly finished potentially causing the steel to become dangerous and not contain the pressures your cartridge will produce. Any heat treating process done after the rifling process can lead to bore and groove dimensions and uniformity being changed. Also, the salt bath nitriding process produces a very hard surface finish. If the barrel IS NOT broken in prior to this process being done, it will never properly break in. If the barrel IS broken in there could be traces of copper left in the bore (even in the pores of the steel) and will react with the nitriding process in the form of pits or corrosion in the barrel where it reacted to the copper. The person or company you choose to do this operation must be aware of these items and would assume responsibility for what happens to your barrel as all of these operations and procedures are out of the control of Krieger Barrels, Inc.For the reasons stated above, the answer to this question is no."

From Hart barrels web site.
http://hartbarrels.com/faq.php
"Does cryo-treating reduce stress in Hart Rifle Barrels? Cryo-treating steel has been in practice for many years to reduce stress in metal, and is very effective in some metals. The Crucible Specialties , Inc. 416R stainless steel we use to manufacture barrels is virtually unaffected by cryo-treating. Crucible's metallurgist have advised us that cryo-treating has no effect on 416R stainless steel. We have also independently tested several barrels and have been unable to detect any difference in the steel. We offer this service, as several of our customers believe in it and feel it gives them a competitive edge. The final choice is yours as to whether you feel this service is necessary."

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Originally Posted by 82boy

I have done some playing with cryogenic freezing of barrels, and I must say there is something there to it. To anyone that would say that Cryogenic freezing is "snake oil" I would ask them if they have ever heard of Krieger barrels? John Krieger must think there is something to this process, as ALL Krieger barrels are cryogenically frozen before they are machined/drilled. Krieger use to cryogenically freeze the barrels twice, once before machining, and then after, because they believe so much in the process. They stopped double freezing barrels as of extra cost, time, and little added benefit of freezing then a second time. I think John Krieger knows something about barrels, as right now there is a 16 month wait for a barrel blank, and look at equipment list on Benchrest match's, where the highest amount of accuracy on the planet is at, and you will see more Krieger barrels than anything else.

The benefits to a barrel that is cryogenically frozen, is it will machine smoother. (Ask any machinist who has machined both materials.) With this smoother machining you will get less tool push off, and a batter product. The barrel will also gain a couple of points in hardness, as an additional benefit. This would also attribute to less tool wear. As far as other claims, of them being easier to clean, this is a subjective question, I would say in my experience, the brush, and patches push through a bit smoother. I would not say that they collect any less/more material between shots.

On better barrel life, this again is a subjective question, as some barrels just last longer than others and there is no rhyme or reason to it. I have talked to people that have claimed that they have. On velocity , this again is a subjective question, and my experience say no they shoot about the same velocity. On accuracy, again this is subjective. The problem is with these questions is that each barrel has its own personality, and every one will behave differently. To honestly evaluate this process, it would take a large test with at least 50 identical barrels (25 of each ) shot with the same cases, powder, primers, bullets as so forth. Most companies don't have the wants or means to do this.

One thing I can say about cryogenic treatment, that can not be said about the others is, I have never heard of a single case where this detrimentally hurt the barrel. Either people say that they saw an improvement, or they did not, but I have never heard of anyone saying that a barrel shot worse. (I have heard a quite few stories of people having barrels salt bath nitrating/ meloniting, and the barrels being forever ruined.)

Now with that all said, cryogenic works in barrels, but it other areas, I would say it is a waste of time, such as triggers, springs, or actions. These parts just do not see a benefit to the process. I would state that prior to being broached, formed, or made they might see a slight benefit to it. An action only needs to hold the barrel, and the sighting device, in a consistent manner. Accuracy happens in the barrels.

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I don't want to argue with you about Krieger barrels and whether or not they cryo treat barrels...last I heard they stopped cryo'ing barrels in 2003 due to some litigation. I have a Krieger on a 257 Roberts AI and another on a 25 Souper...both done around 2005...anyway...nowhere on Krieger's website does it mention cryo treating of barrels anymore. Not saying they don't do it but I could find no mention of it anywhere on their website anymore, but if you google "Krieger Barrel cryogenic" you will find several comments to their not doing it anymore...

They stopped double treating the barrels, (Around 2003) they do still treat the barrel blank prior to machining.

This was taken from Sinclair's web site.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/gun-part...prod38349.aspx
"combination of the processes Krieger employs - from 416 stainless steel made to their own specifications, the singe-point cut - rifling method used to rifle the barrels and the cryogenic treatment each barrel relieves before it is machined."

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Originally Posted by 82boy

They stopped double treating the barrels, (Around 2003) they do still treat the barrel blank prior to machining.

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Certainly possible, it just isn't mentioned on their website under their barrel making process tab anymore...

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Barrel...246-wp3379.htm

I will agree with you in that everyone seems to agree it certainly doesn't seem to negatively impact barrels. And no one can argue the point that they certainly build good barrels...but so do Pac-Nor, Lilja and many others that argue against the process...it's obviously one that you either believes works or doesn't.

Yeah the only thing I know is the jury is out...and not all barrel manufactures agree on it's value...Lilja, Shillen and Pac-Nor all seem to think it provides little benefit...but yes, as you said everyone seems to agree there's no know disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by emtrescue6

but if you google "Krieger Barrel cryogenic" you will find several comments to their not doing it anymore...

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I did a search on yahoo and pulled up some interesting information.
Here is an article in Sep 10 2010 Guns and ammos' rifle shooter magazine. by Jon Sundra
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2010/...g_rsgunsmith1/
He states in his article:
"Some makers, like John Krieger, for example, who produces both cut- and button-rifled barrels, have embraced cryogenic stress relieving, but he makes no accuracy claims for it. Others-mostly folks who are not barrel makers but who are in the cryo business, do claim accuracy benefits for freezing the bejesus out of steel. Krieger is convinced that cryo produces a steel that is easier on tools and machines better. Those who use it all agree, of course, and those who don’t say it doesn’t.


Before cryoing, Krieger told me in a recent conversation, he would often scrap three or four barrels out of 10 because the deep-hole drilling operation would produce blanks having more than .005-inch run-out when turned on centers. It’s hard to believe that you can start drilling a hole smack in the middle of a 11⁄4-inch-diameter steel bar and after boring 28-30 inches, actually expect to come out within .005 inch of dead center at the other end!


But good barrel makers do, and now that he’s cryoing, John tells me his scrap rate because of excessive run-out is virtually nil. As with all aspects of barrel-making, the methods used to first drill the hole in the bar stock, then ream it for smoothness, vary with the maker. Some drill and/or ream on the horizontal, some on the vertical. Some rotate only the drill and/or reamer, some rotate only the barrel, others still rotate both-obviously in opposite directions."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

I did a search on yahoo and pulled up some interesting information.
Here is an article in Sep 10 2010 Guns and ammos' rifle shooter magazine. by Jon Sundra
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2010/...g_rsgunsmith1/
He states in his article:
"Some makers, like John Krieger, for example, who produces both cut- and button-rifled barrels, have embraced cryogenic stress relieving, but he makes no accuracy claims for it. Others-mostly folks who are not barrel makers but who are in the cryo business, do claim accuracy benefits for freezing the bejesus out of steel. Krieger is convinced that cryo produces a steel that is easier on tools and machines better. Those who use it all agree, of course, and those who don’t say it doesn’t.


Before cryoing, Krieger told me in a recent conversation, he would often scrap three or four barrels out of 10 because the deep-hole drilling operation would produce blanks having more than .005-inch run-out when turned on centers. It’s hard to believe that you can start drilling a hole smack in the middle of a 11⁄4-inch-diameter steel bar and after boring 28-30 inches, actually expect to come out within .005 inch of dead center at the other end!


But good barrel makers do, and now that he’s cryoing, John tells me his scrap rate because of excessive run-out is virtually nil. As with all aspects of barrel-making, the methods used to first drill the hole in the bar stock, then ream it for smoothness, vary with the maker. Some drill and/or ream on the horizontal, some on the vertical. Some rotate only the drill and/or reamer, some rotate only the barrel, others still rotate both-obviously in opposite directions."

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+1...

I can see there must be advantages in the initial machining process. "Great" information coming out here!
Thanks ... Jim

I have had a couple done and can't say that the accuracy was better, probably due to my inexperience at the game at that time. I DO know that the barrels seemed to clean up easier and I did see better barrel /throat life. I have not had one done in some time. One of my current barrels is a Rock Creek. It was not Cryo'ed to my knowledge and it is a dream to clean. I feel this is due to the lapping they do. My smith did say that Cryo'ing will increase barrel life, but I would not swear to it because I am not a metalurgist and I do not think it would hurt the barrel at all. If it is what you want go for it.