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If I see some guy shooting his deer rifle off the bench at 100 yards is this
considered bench rest shooting..Or is there something all together different.
Are the guys shooting F Class from the bench considered to be bench rest
shooters...I can't really figure this out..Someone please tell me a difference.
Or is it those shooters who use the high dollar guns and high dollar fancy rest?:05.18-flustered:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benchrest_shooting
Benchrest shooting is a sport in which very accurate and precise rifles are shot at paper targets. The rifles ride on a front and rear rest, the rests may or may not be joined, depending on the rules of a particular competition. The rests sit on a table or bench, hence the name "benchrest." The shooter simply sits at the bench, in distinction to other shooting disciplines, where the shooter lies prone, sits, kneels or stands, and aims the rifle without the benefit of a rest. The post-Civil War era "double rest" rifles were one early form of "benchrest" rifles.
Benchrest shooters are notoriously detail-oriented and constantly trying to further the accuracy potential of the rifle through experimentation. Nearly all benchrest rifles are custom made, and many shooters do their own gunsmithing.[1] Nearly all shooters in centerfire competition handload their ammunition in order to tune it to their rifle.[2] In distinction, handloading ammunition is strictly prohibited by the rules for rimfire benchrest competitions.
Types of competition:
There are two major trends in competition. One type is group shooting, in which the object is to place five or ten shots on a target as close together as possible. Winning placement in competition is determined by how well each competitor achieves this goal or IOW, how closely the shots are grouped. This is sometimes termed precision competition.
The other is score shooting, where a traditional bulls eye type target with scoring rings is used. Winning placement is determined by each shooter's score results. This is sometimes termed accuracy competition.
However, in 600 and 1,000 yard competitions (IBS, NBRSA, and The Original Pennsylvania 1,000 Yard Benchrest Club), the competitor's target is scored for both group size and score. A competitor may only win in one category. If, for example a single competitor has the smallest group and highest score, they will be awarded only a win for the smallest group, the next highest score will be awarded the score win.
Additionally, there is growing interest in both rimfire and airgun benchrest. Currently, competitions both these are of the score format only.
Benchrest shooters attempt to achieve the ultimate in rifle precision; records for single 1000 yard, 10 shot groups are as small as 3 inches, the 600 yard record for a single 5-shot group is .699 inches (there are no 10-shot competitions at 600 yards), while 200 yard 10 shot groups are around 0.2 inches, and 100 yard 10 shot groups are around 0.1 inch. Five shot groups are significantly smaller.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9] Groups are measured from center-to-center, thus negating the variations of different calibers. To accomplish this, the group is measured across its overall widest dispersion, then the diameter of the bullet is subtracted for the result. For example, a group measuring .375" is scored .132" (.375"-.243") for a 6 mm (.243") bullet.[10] Matches are shot from 50 yards with rimfire rifles, up to 1,000 yards for centerfire rifles.
In competitive group shooting at 100-300 yards, shots often land very close together making only one ragged hole in the target, therefore a method for verifying the required number of shots (5 or 10) is used. This consists of a motorized single roll of paper stretched across and moving behind the targets which will record the number of bullets passing through each target.
Equipment
Since benchrest is a sport requiring the highest possible accuracy and precision, the highest precision equipment is required if a shooter is to be competitive. The rifle is the most obvious cost; top guns are custom built, and can cost thousands of dollars. Handloading equipment is also essential for centerfire shooters (rimfire rounds are generally not handloaded) to allow tuning the ammunition to the rifle. In order to achieve extreme accuracy, the guns must be fired from a stable platform called a bench, which is a heavy, solid table usually anchored into the ground. Benches made of cinder block with a poured cement top are commonly used in competition. These superseded wooden benches used earlier, but are still used on some ranges. For most rifles, rests are required to provide a stable shooting surface, and most shooters use some method of judging the direction and/or velocity of the wind on the range.
Rifles
Rifles are usually custom-made with extreme accuracy in mind. Shooters might use heavy stainless steel barrels, scopes with high power magnification, and handmade stocks of graphite, fiberglass, or carbon fiber. Triggers are usually set to a pull of only a few ounces.
Benchrest shooting grew from varmint hunting, where the shooters would aim for highly accurate rifles, using mostly .22 caliber cartridges. Initially, competitors could use just about any gun they wished. Eventually, classes of guns were created to enhance the sport's competitiveness. For example, the two long-range classes are a 17 pounds (7.7 kg) maximum Light Gun, and an unlimited weight Heavy Gun. Short range (100 to 300 yard) centerfire group shooting encompasses the "Light Varmint" (maximum 10.5 pounds (4.8 kg) overall), "Heavy Varmint" (13.5 pounds (6.1 kg) overall), "Sporter" (10.5 pounds (4.8 kg), and .243 caliber or greater), and "Unlimited" classes. The Unlimited class comes very close to living up to its name--just about any single-shot rifle qualifies, up to and including "rail guns", which are rifle barrels and mechanisms built into a machine, or return-to-battery rest. With rifles such as these, some initially argued that no shooting skill was involved and was simply a test of the machinist's craft. However, shooting a RTB rifle requires a set of skills different than, but not inferior to, conventional marksmanship. What is removed with the return-to-battery (RTB) rifle is the need to physically aim the rifle for each shot, and evaluation of how any mirage will affect the shot. Judging the wind is as difficult and important with RTB rifles as with the other rifles. Given their mechanisms, it is arguably harder to compensate for ever-changing wind conditions when using a machine rest; the usual technique is to wait for what seems to be an identical condition rather than holding for the wind. Holding for the wind is quite common with the Light and Heavy Varmint rifles, and does offer certain advantages.
Benchrest matches involve careful reading of wind conditions to compensate for bullet drift, and the rifles and ammunition must be of the highest possible quality. However, claims of the superior position of machining over marksmanship skills in RTB rifle shooting are bolstered by the fact that competitors build their own rifles, and nearly all handload their ammunition to tune it to the rifle.
Precision sights are also a requirement. High quality aperture iron sights could be used, but nearly all benchrest events allow telescopic sights. High magnification scopes are generally preferred; magnifications of 24x, 36x, or higher are common when allowed. Generally scopes will have turret adjustments to allow the scope to be easily adjusted for various shooting conditions.
Ammunition
Only the most consistent and efficient cartridges can provide the necessary accuracy for benchrest shooting. Initially, many chamberings were tried, with the .219 Donaldson Wasp probably being the most common. The .222 Remington dominated the benchrest world from the mid-1950s until around 1975, when the wildcat 6 mm PPC, based on a modified .220 Russian case (which is in turn a boxer-primed derivative of the military 7.62 x 39 mm), took over as the most accurate cartridge. In today's benchrest competitions, short range group is mainly shot with the 6 mm PPC, while short range score sees more rifles chambered in the .30 BR. In 600-yard benchrest, the 6 mm BR Norma and a wildcat based on it, the 6 mm Dasher, are currently the most common chamberings. There is no dominant chambering in 1,000-yard competition; choices range from the 6 mm BR and Dasher through the .338 Lapua, with a host of 6 mm, 6.5 mm, 7 mm, and .30 caliber chamberings.
Except where extremely rare competition rules stipulate factory-assembled ammunition, benchrest shooting relies exclusively on hand-loaded ammunition, which is user-assembled, round by round, with painstaking precision. Benchrest shooters' primers, powders and bullets must be of the highest quality available if they are to achieve the shot-to-shot consistency necessary for competitive performances. Most short-range benchrest shooters use precision target grade bullets made by custom bullet makers. Long-range shooters split about evenly between factory manufactured and custom-manufactured bullets. Initially, very-low-drag (VLD) bullets were preferred for long range, but both the difficulties in consistent manufacture and fussiness in consistent loading of VLD bullets have led to some compromise designs that have the promise of more consistent performance.
Rests
Unlimited class rail guns are just barreled actions (the top) that ride directly on a machine rest (the base), no additional rests are needed. The base of the railgun provides adjustable feet to provide a stable position on the bench, and the rifle is aimed with horizontal and vertical adjustments built into the base.
All other rifle types have recognizable stocks, and are fired from dual sandbags; a front bag on an adjustable mechanical platform (some costing half as much as the rifle) and a special rear bag. The stocks of benchrest rifles are designed to rest on the sandbags. With short-range rifles and the lower-recoiling long-range rifles, many competitors shoot "free recoil," where the rifle is not touched at all, save for the finger on the trigger. The sandbags provide all the support. By allowing the rifle to move freely backwards, the shooter hopes that the movement under recoil will be as consistent as possible. A few short-range rifles, and long-range rifles with heavy recoil must be firmly held, even though the aiming is still done with the positioning of the rests.
Wind Flags
Wind flags are placed on the range between the shooter and the target, and allow a skilled shooter to judge the amount of correction that needs to be made to place each shot precisely on the target. Flags can be home built[11] or purchased. They generally consist of a wind vane to indicate wind direction, and a cloth (or plastic) streamer and/or propeller to indicate wind speed (the higher the wind, the greater the angle of the streamer or speed of the propeller). Multiple flags are usually used, and they are placed at intervals along the path of the bullet from rifle to target.
Supershoot
The Supershoot is usually held the week before Memorial Day in northern Ohio. Approximately 360 shooters from around the world will gather to see who can shoot the smallest average of Light Varmint (5 groups each at 100 and 200 yards) and Heavy Varmint (5 groups/100/200).[12]
The World Benchrest Championship is hosted in a different country every 2 years. On 27/06/2009 a world-record was set there at 300 yards (270 m) with a 1.191 centimetres (0.469 in) 5-shot group measured center-to-center.[13]
Interesting..But I think of i'm shooting my musket loader in compition and from a bench It should
also be called bench rest shooting,regardless of group size or for numbered score...But I know what you mean
I have shot at the PA 1000 yard in Bodine,as well And them guys have some guns that weigh 80 lbs or more
it is a game most can not afford to get into...When I shot there,they had different class's.....My rifle only weighted
in at 15 lbs and I still did pretty fair until my barrel go so hot..I only had a 1 inch barrel verus their 3 inch barrels...oh well
If it is a competition, then I'm sure the organizers have a name for it and rules... They can call it what they like I guess...
well really any rifle or shot gun sitting on a rest I guess could be called a form of bench rest....lol
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by acemisser
This logic is the equalivent of saying "My son plays little leage baseball, and I was in the stands and yelled at the coach to put my kid in and he did it, so that must make me an Assistant Coach of a profesional baseball team."
Acemisser, you asked a perfectly reasonable question. The answer you got was that "Benchrest" is a specific form of competitive rifle shooting with specific rules and regulations governing the conduct of that competition. Then it sounded to me as if you decided to argue with the answer. I'm confused as to your point. You can call your shooting what you want, but by using the same language as everyone else you are less likely to confuse or be confused. Shooting from a bench, or shooting while using a bench rest setup is not the same as shooting in a Benchrest competitive event.
Here's a similar (but different) example:
Sometimes I shoot in "Bullseye" pistol competitions. "Bullseye" is a competitive pistol discipline with very specific rules and regulations.
Other times I shoot my pistol at a bullseye or at a target with a bullseye printed on it. This is not the same as shooting a "Bullseye" match.
Another time I had a male bovine look at me. He used a bulls eye to see me? Again not the same.
to each his own I suppose..You see it your way I see it mine---The glass is half full the glass if half empty...lol:noidea:
If someone told me they just built a new bench rest rifle, I would expect to see a single shot action, a 3" wide bench rest stock and a high magnification scope, among other things. If if doesn't have these features, it's nothing more than a glorified varmint rifle.
:very_drunk:Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
amen to that.I agree 100%
and thats exactly what they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
possibly (bench shooting) would be a better way to describe what many of us do.
i think most would realize that is not a form of benchrest as in the competetive form other than a bench is involved.
the same as driving is not a form of auto racing because a car is involved.
to bad it has to be a rich mans sport.it's a shame you cant go and have fun without it costing alot.i think it would be more fun to take an old 22lr to a bench rest shoot and not have people tell them,your not going to be competitive with that,you have to have a 2 or 3,000 dollar gun.not a way to get more people involved in the sport.
N1YDP22 that statement is untrue.
I by no means am a rich man, I am retired on a fixed income and still shoot bench rest for score. Yes I have and am building a new rifle for matches but no where near the figures you quote. Also most matches have and are open to Factory guns(separate class) and are very well suited to the Savage platform of accurate rifles right out of the box.
In the factory class you compete against like guns so it becomes your skill level not the cost of your rifle and it opens up a competetive shooting sport for all who would like to try it.
It is only a rich mans sport if you let it be. You dont need a 2000 to 3000 dollar gun to be competitive. Many clubs offer matchs where they offer diferent class, such as a factory class. This year the Shelby County deer hunters is offering a factory class during their NBRSA matchs. If you buy used equipement, and do your research you can find good equipement for low cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by N1YDP22
As far as 22lr benchrest this is a hard sprot to break into, even with high dollar equipement. It is much easier to get involved into centerfire benchrest, for lower cost.
Benchrest Club of St.Louis has a factory hunter class, that shoots at the same time as the Varmint for score guys. I'm going to attend the match in March with my Stevens 200. I have a Boyds Stock and SSS comp trigger ordered, so I'm in the process of working up a load in the mean time. You don't have to spend your life savings to have a good time and compete in a match.
Yes St Louis Benchrest club is awesome, and if your into shooting 600 yard matchs, they have a factory class, or you can enter your factory gun in the other classes. A factory gun right out the box can be very competitive at 600 yards. Seen several model 12 long range benchrest guns in 6br hold thier own.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowMeShooter
I might give that a try later on, but right now it's Varmint for Score I'm interested in.
I attended the Benchrest match Saturday, to get the feel of how a match was run. Great bunch of guys there, and some fine shooting going on. I was seeing groups I would have been tickled with out of my hunting rifles, that were considered garbage. Pretty crazy watching those guys load and shoot the same 6-7 cases all day long too..
i found a club not to far away that does benchrest.i'm going to check it out,it sounds like alot of fun.right now i have a cz 425 and 455 22lr,mossberg 44us and 144lsa and a savage mark ii but it has a plastic stock.it has to be a wood stock right?
Nope, most benchrest guns has synthtic stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by N1YDP22
All shooting needs more participation. A good way to ghet started is to shoot what you got.
When shooting against the guns described above (80- pounds etc) you will NEVER win. Just go out and shoot and have fun. Try to beat yourself and that can be tough, at times.
Good guns to start with. Go out and shoot. They should welcome you with 'open arms'.
Was referring to post #18's guns.
Where this 80 pound gun stuff comes from just amazes me, it is pure ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by langenc
In 100-300 yard benchrest there is a few classs. The most popular ones are Light weight varminter a gun weighing in at under 10.5 pound with scope. A heavy varmint a gun weighing in at under 13.5 poounds. Most benchrest shooters dont build heavy varmint guns, they shoot their light varmint gun in this class, and most times a light varmint gun will shoot better than a heavy varmint gun. You have sporter class which is basicly a light varint class, with a few diferences, and most people shoot Light varmint gun in this class. You have hunter class, wich is a gun weighing in at under 10 pounds, with a 2 inch wide forarm and a limit of a 6 power scope. Unlimited wich is only shot at the nationals, and may be one or two reginals shoots. Most of these are rail guns, they are shot in their own class, with a 10 shot target. A rail gun can weigh in at 80 pounds. Very few benchrest shooters even own rail guns, as if you lucky you might shoot them 1 to 2 times a year, let along many shoot light varmint guns in this match and are still competitive.
So where are these 80 pound guns?
Lets go a step further, now lets talk 600 and 1000 yard benchrest. There is only two classes a light gun wich must weight in at under 17 pounds, and a heavly gun wich has no weight specification. You may say "there is them 80 pound guns." Yes, a few shooters will have guns weighing in at 80 and even more such as 120 pounds, but here is the problem, they dont shoot any better than a light gun weighing in at 17 pounds. You may ask then why do people shoot heavy guns, and the answer is I dont know. Most shooters will shoot thier light gun in heavy gun, and most times they beat out the heavy guns. So to say a 80 pound gun has an advantage is a bunch of crap.
One of the best 600 yard benchrest shooters is Richard Schatz, and all he shoots is his light gun and it only weighs in at 15 pounds. I dont even think Richard owns a heavy gun, or another bench gun for that matter. He has beat the pants off of many guns that weight much heavier than his. Now with that said it is purly possible for someone to take a savage benchrest gun and beat the tar out of a 80 pound gun, how do I know, well I have done it, and seen it done many times.
There is something to be said about a fella that shoots only one gun....he probably knows exactly what the rifle needs to slap the competition...I got a lesson in this a few years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by 82boy
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...ghlight=Cranes
I say that equipment is important but...........
Reading the wind is the tricky part.A lot of benchrest shooters will stay home if the wind is blowing......I think that is when you really need to practice.
if youve ever attended a 1000 yd match at a place like williamsport you might rethink that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcshooter
at williamsport all matches are 10 shots. most shooters will send all 10 within about 1 minit.
the reason is they want all of them down there asap so they dont have to deal with changes.
so much for wind reading.
That is a different type of event.........I was speaking about American Rimfire Association 50 yard benchrest shooting...
The target has 25 bulls on a sheet.... perfect score is 2500.....each target requires you to move the rifle....a match is 4 sheets usually in different relays at different times of the day....check it out....
BRAVO. This is one of the best answers I've ever seen on a forum. I will say I love my wife's .222 Remington 783, but by this and another's definition it's just a glorified varmint rifle. The factory class does sound like a fun thing to try. I might build a rest and go look for one. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcliffe01
True, but!! in 22 BR (benchrest) all any shooter really needs is an accurate rifle/scope combo, good ammo will enhance the combo/tripo if there is such a word.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Front and rear rest, wind flag or two and go shooting. Trying to find a place up this way is a challenge.
I shoot at 'renegade' matches that are organized but allow shooting quite a few targets per match. Many matches you start at 9 or 10, shoot a target at 25 yrds and then one at 50 and it is all over. Our matches allow you to shoot as many as you like, with multiple guns, 25 and/or 50 yrds. Big problem now will be ammo-buying/affording to buy.
One good rule for BR or any shooting-make the match such the anyone can shoot--"SHOOT WHAT YOU GOT"--rifle/scope/ammo.
Go shooting to beat yourself, wife or buddy or both. I have taken my kids, wife and college buddies. Just about all have beaten me---with my OWN rifle. There are some that you will never beat, be honest.
Make the match flexible as to time of start, not being req to shoot every relay etc.
Atbour matches we start at 10 OR whenever you get there, within reason. Sundays some attend church and cant make 10 start-so they show up at 11 or 1130.
Targets are $2/relay(unless they get raised) as everything is going up. Shoot at 25 yrd, couple targets then couple at 50. If you want to shoot another rifle at 25, go ahead and do so.. We use portable target holders so a shooter just moves angle iron frame when moving 25 to 50. No need to change bench to the other end of the line as many clubs require..
Any questions--PM me and we can discuss.
Finding club that will support will be biggest problem.
PS we shoot USBR target-that is the reason for the 25 yd shooting. Once you shoot that target you will understand. Early organizer found that shooters would show up, be req to shoot at 50, shoot a couple targets and never be seen again.
Use what you got. Along the way you will become aware of 'better' equipment and probably move 'up'. I have let many shooters try my gun.
The second or so gentleman that gave a good description og BR shooting/equip may have mentioned thet BR guns have LIGHT triggers. A good 22 BR gun will have a 2 OUNCE trigger. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot is important.
I did not know this, but very glad to hear. Is there another manufacture out there that sells an "out of the box" Benchrest rifle besides Savage? Otherwise you are back to Rem 700's with Krieger barrels, Jewel triggers, and McMillian stocks, AKA custom rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtfroggy
Just to clear things up the NBRSA and the IBS do not have a factory class, so with that said there is no such thing as a factory rifle class in official Benchrest match. ALL Factory classes are something that a shooting club will offer, and the rules are dependent on that club, and will and can vary from club to club. So if you was to take your "Savage Model 12 Benchrest" rifle to a IBS or NBRSA Benchrest match, the gun would have to fit into the rules, and it would be competing against full custom guns. Now to further add to thing some clubs will not let the Model 12 shoot in a factory class because it has a flat forearm on the stock. Some clubs allow and some ban gun made in a factory custom shop, such as Remington 40x's, Coopers, and what ever else. Again it is up to the club what they allow in a factory class, and as far as Benchrest goes, there is no official "Factory class."Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovering Sniper
Thanks for clarifying that for me 82boy.
If you think Benchrest is an expensive sport sell your boat.
I've been playing around the past couple of weeks shooting my .308 win bench rest style. I now have my first front rest and I have realized the potential to rule out human error by shooting with my new technique.
I'm shooting a very mild load of 40.7 grain Rel. 15 with 168 Hornady 168 bthp Lapua brass and fed 210 match primer.
24" Shaw Varmint barrel B&C Varmint Tactical stock !0fp action with accu trigger at 1.5 Pounds. The stock is flat at the fore end so it sits very nice on the front rest. I set it up with the cross hairs right where I want them adjusting the Protector rear bag, and the only thing that touches the rifle is my trigger finger, pulling straight back, very slowly breaking the shot without disturbing the rifle. I keep my shoulder barely touching the butt of the rifle just enough to know it's there.
The front rest needs improvement so it eliminates sided to side play so the rifle will stay on target after recoil better, but I'm really enjoying shooting like this.
One thing that has been said here, but bears repeating, is that you DO NOT need a $4000 rifle to compete.............Plus, look at it this way, if you DID go out and buy that 4k rifle, the guys who have been doing this for years are probably STILL gonna mop the floor with you. This sport is only as expensive as YOU choose it to be. I shoot and I have fun. I have NO illusions of winning most matches, except possibly something VERY local. I go to have fun, shoot better and try and learn something from guys who are really good. Seems some guys think you should not even show up if you don't have a hardcore rig......NOT TRUE. Grab what ya got and go shoot it.
I shot for quite a while with just a box stock 700 BDL Varmint rifle with decent optics. Did ok, even won a local match or two. I now have a 12BVSS in .300 win mag. Stock rifle with good Nightforce glass. I STILL have no illusions of winning on a regular basis and really don't care...........I am currently having a custom done by a local builder in a 6.5 Creedmoor. Again, not building it with the expectation to WIN, but just get BETTER.
Very true! And welcome to the forum msp.Quote:
Originally Posted by msp3903
Since last August when I last posted in this thread I've trued the face of a Savage long action, HD lug, screwed in a Shilen select match #8 contour.308, BVSS stock and fastened a fore end block on the front to ride the bags good on my homemade front rest. With very careful hand loading I can rattle off 5 shots +/- .25" at 100 yards and I almost had a screamer .198 but the 5th shot brought it to .327". Also using a Night Night 8-32 NXS, and Rifle basics competition trigger as light as it will go 4 oz. some say its lighter. I't didn't take long at all to find this load either with the 168 SMK,,, on the other hand it will not print the 178 A maxes into a single hole, pretty close but this rifle has taught me that however bad you want to use a certain bullet a rifle may prefer another one a little more. I've also found that I have to shoot the 5 shots very quickly to obtain 1/4" groups before the wind has a chance to change much.
Very interesting thread. I'd love to try some competition of some sort this year. I'm inspired to find a club offering a "factory rifle" / novice class.
Thanks for the inspiration.
This is the 168SMK load.
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/...ps712e10c6.jpg
Here's the rig about 16 1/2 pounds.
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2b83cfa3.jpg
sweet looking rig you have there Dan....
Thanks, that's the one I've been shooting F open with this year,, nothing under a 191 and as high as a 197-24X with it. Now I'm going to work on shooting my .223. Is there a match at Odessa this Saturday?Quote:
Originally Posted by acemisser
as far as I know there is.Haven't heard anything different yet..
DanSavage, that is one "beasty" rifle! Very nice.
Thank you savagetoter! It is one fine rifle , weighs in about 16.5 lbs.
+1!Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtfroggy