Accidental Fires!!

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12-05-2012, 11:57 AM
thermaler

Accidental Fires!!

Something that I forgot to mention in my previous post though I think is VERY important.

I installed a Timney trigger into my Axis and have been firing with fairly light pull (maybe 4 lbs) but had TWO accidental fires yesterday when releasing the safety. Fortunately, my rifle was pointing downrange at the target in both cases. I thought I may have inadvertently launched the rounds with my trigger finger--but confirmed this morning that the safety setting was tripping the trigger.

I thought this may be due to the sear and pull adjustments--but as far as I can tell it is not.

The problem is with the safety adjustment as far as I can tell--a fairly loose setting causes the whole trigger assembly to pivot in the receiver--and when you release the safety--even if it solidly holds while engaged--it somehow pivots the trigger assembly enough that the the sear releases the trigger.

I've tightened the safety up significantly along with the sear and pull settings--I have not so far been able to replicate this with my rifle basix install in my axis 308.

What sayeth Gary et al?

marc
12-05-2012, 01:46 PM
thermaler

Unfortunately I can't quite make out the components you are referring to--got pics by any chance? thanks for the responses.

marc
12-05-2012, 01:49 PM
thermaler

If you mean did I do a custom rod install into the fore-end area as well as the butt-stock area--the answer is yes to both.
12-05-2012, 05:20 PM
thermaler

I've got both rifles apart and am comparing the triggers side-by-side--there is about the same amount of pivot in both assemblies so I can't quite figure how that's a factor. The rifle basix looks like it has a slightly better sear end than the Timney--it also has an overtravel adjustment that the Timney does not but I don't see how that could be a factor. The rifle basix is set with much less sear contact surface and lighter pull than the Timney--but try as I might I can't get it to accidentally release the trigger when releasing the safety. I'm stumped.
12-05-2012, 07:05 PM
thermaler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmac5

When the factory set up is assembled into the stock , the aluminum trig bracket ,the one the rear stock screw goes thru, is sandwiched between the stock and receiver. The problem is two fold, first your trig is probably too light, you wont know until the receiver assembly is bedded properly.
Try this . Remove the receiver from the stock , add a spacer or many washers to the rear rec stock screw.tighten down until the aluminum trig bracket is compressed ,as it should be in the stock, then try bolt,safty ,trigger, see if it malfunctions again. Let me know what happens.

Gary

Thanks for the suggestion.

Believe it or not--I figured the problem out (or at least came up with a solution that worked).

My biggest confusion came from the fact that both my 308 and 270 upper receiver groups had the same dynamics when separated from the stock--the trigger housing pivoted to the same degree with the same relative pressure.

I finally decided to pull the recoil lug on my 270 and reseat it. Not only did this completely eliminate the "trigger pivot" I was getting--I was able to lighten the pull and sear back to an easy, smooth break like I originally had. If I had to guess--I suppose the lug somehow started working it's way out from repeated heavy recoils (the 270 is a big banger). I guess I should have thought of this sooner--but I will now make that a regular part of my weapon check/clean before and after use. Short of a catastrophic misfire--nothing scares me more than an accidental fire, though from the safety point of view I believe you should always assume that's a possibility every time a round is chambered.
12-05-2012, 09:37 PM
thomae

Something doesn't sound right....and a safety plea.

I am glad you figured out the problem, however I believe your analysis of the "why" is mistaken. That is not a personal slam against you, but rather a conclusion based on my understanding of and personal experience with the Axis rifle.

I believe that either your action screws (one or both) were not fully tightened, or else the recoil lug was not properly/fully seated in the stock. If the action screws were tightened properly, and the recoil lug was fully seated, shooting would not have caused the lug to rise, or work out of the lug recess.

On at least one Axis rifle I have worked on, removing the action also removed the recoil lug because it was sandwiched so tightly between the action and the barrel nut. Perhaps yours inadvertently pulled the lug up part way when you removed the action from the stock.

Now I will change topics just a bit and jump on the safety bandwagon. Sorry if this sounds like a rant, it's not.

You should NEVER have TWO accidental discharges. PLEASE: The first time you have a malfunction like that, you need to pack it up and not put any more live rounds in the rifle again until you determine the problem. I know it can ruin a day at the range, but it is simply not worth the risk. Please, please, please, next time err on the side of safety. By the way, in case you didn't guess; I am a firm believer is safety rules. They were written in blood. Please don't let it be yours.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox. Thanks.
12-05-2012, 10:25 PM
thermaler

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomae

I am glad you figured out the problem, however I believe your analysis of the "why" is mistaken. That is not a personal slam against you, but rather a conclusion based on my understanding of and personal experience with the Axis rifle.

I believe that either your action screws (one or both) were not fully tightened, or else the recoil lug was not properly/fully seated in the stock. If the action screws were tightened properly, and the recoil lug was fully seated, shooting would not have caused the lug to rise, or work out of the lug recess.

On at least one Axis rifle I have worked on, removing the action also removed the recoil lug because it was sandwiched so tightly between the action and the barrel nut. Perhaps yours inadvertently pulled the lug up part way when you removed the action from the stock.

Now I will change topics just a bit and jump on the safety bandwagon. Sorry if this sounds like a rant, it's not.

You should NEVER have TWO accidental discharges. PLEASE: The first time you have a malfunction like that, you need to pack it up and not put any more live rounds in the rifle again until you determine the problem. I know it can ruin a day at the range, but it is simply not worth the risk. Please, please, please, next time err on the side of safety. By the way, in case you didn't guess; I am a firm believer is safety rules. They were written in blood. Please don't let it be yours.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox. Thanks.

Thanks--I appreciate your concern and I always welcome safety suggestions.

I already said that I came to the conclusion that I believe the problem arose from the lug seating. Seating the receiver screws is a bit tricky--and it's a bit of a see-saw keep pressure on thing. I once had one screw on so tight I couldn't get it out and stripped it. I'm not making excuses--but there is a certain amount of play in the fittings due to being seated in plastic IMO.

As for the accidental fires--I tried to make it clear that at the time I wasn't certain that was what happened--I actually do most of my sighting in on the target and flip off the safety just before firing, and while I was surprised, I thought it was possible with the light trigger settings etc I may have inadvertently bumped it with my finger/hand--the rounds actually impacted the target making it a little harder to tell. In hindsight it may seem obvious but it was a lesson to cease shooting if any doubts at all.
12-05-2012, 10:41 PM
thomae

Understand that you thought you might have touched off the first round. Makes sense, and it does sound like you were being safe by not thumbing off the safety until you were on target. Thanks for being careful.

You talk about play in the fittings due to being seated in plastic...I am not sure what you mean.
The Axis rifles I have worked with have steel pillars installed in the action screw holes, so there really isn't a whole lot of compression of plastic when tightening the stock to the action.
12-05-2012, 10:56 PM
thermaler

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomae

Understand that you thought you might have touched off the first round. Makes sense, and it does sound like you were being safe by not thumbing off the safety until you were on target. Thanks for being careful.

You talk about play in the fittings due to being seated in plastic...I am not sure what you mean.
The Axis rifles I have worked with have steel pillars installed in the action screw holes, so there really isn't a whole lot of compression of plastic when tightening the stock to the action.

I'm definitely no expert on rifle design--the pillar you mention--on my two axis rifles--is a simple metal collar that is in a hole in plastic.It seems to me that there is a certain amount of space between that plastic housing and the receiver thread seating--and the portion of the screw in the receiver is not very deep, at least in the front screw. Add to that the trigger guard is a separate plastic fitting and the stock is known to flex in that area rather easily, that's my reason for thinking there is a certain amount of play POSSIBLY at work. I've never really liked having a plastic stock and will never completely trust it as a reliable platform for mounting something as dynamic as a high-power action upon.

Having been in gliding aviation for over 25 years; it's a common tenant that "if it can go wrong, it probably will" and I see lots of parallels between flying and shooting. I will be a little more careful to "preflight" my rifle every time before using it.