Hate To Be The One

with a Criterian 22-250 1-9 bull barrel that i'm having thouble making shoot..i took off and sold a factory 1-12 bull barrel that would shoot .5 all day long..when i 1st got the LRPV 22-250, it would shoot in the in the .2-.3 after 500 shots it opened up to .5 ( raw 5 shot group at 100m )..still a good varmint barrel..so i sold it and got a criterian from Jim at Christmas time.got the barrel on in late spring. used go-no go gages and jim's target recoil lug.everything went together with no problems.took a load from accurateshooter..60 gr vmax, 34.8gr od h4895, ww lrp and remington brass fl resized and trimmed...the best i got was an 1.25" long vertical group..all touching in one long rip...i also got pressure signs ..shiney extractor marks..so i backed off .2 of a gr in the next load. also loaded a known accuracy load in my old barrel..i attributed the vertical to my setup..i used a sinclair 3" screw on bag spacer on a hard front bag, i think that was the problem.put a 2.5 bag on the rest for this trip. it shot the reduced load 60 vmax into 1.5 5 shot groups. so lets try the 52 gr amax ww748 load..2 went into 1 large hole ..then 3 1/4 around the 1st 2 shot hole..the next 2 groups were carbon copies of the 1st group..hardly a one hole shooter..i called jim..he said call criterian. called criterian an left message and the president called me back ( i forget his name )..i told him the same as i told you..he said " keep shooting it..it sounds like it wants to shoot ".anybody got a load for 1-9 22-250 ? i'm only going to go so far throwing money down this barrel..before this thing goes to the chop saw and we move on..any help would be appreciated.

I have a few ideas.
First you are REALLY bouncing around with powders and bullets without doing much testing. Pick a set of components, THEN work within those parameters. Don't know about "accurateshooter", but picking a website that has A load and using it without work-up is an issue. When you see that the load is too hot, back-off AT LEAST .5 grain, and I personally would do a full grain with the 22-250; not .2.
748 is a bit fast for a 22-250, that is more like 760's realm, or stay with H4895.

Another issue I see is the twist/bullet combo. Why are you shooting light-weight bullets with a heavy-bullet twist??
This very well could be a large part of your problem. The 60gr loads by Hodgdon's numbers, has you very close to the bullets RPM ceiling. For the 52gr bullet, IF (don't have a clue with 748 in the 22-250) you are reaching a modest 3700fps, you are beyond the RPM limit.
MV * 720 / TWIST = RPM. There is NO velocity attainable in a production rifle, that can destroy a bullet. Centrifugal force(RPM) is what destroys bullets!
Hornady 22-cal SP/Vmax bullets have a RPM ceiling of @ 290,000rpm; barrel smoothness dependant.
If you are near the RPM limit without hitting it's destruction stage, you will see VERY poor accuracy; due to an over-stabilization induced "wobble".

Rarely is the max load, the accurate one. Generally for a given weight range, the best accuracy is found in the middle of the velocity range.

Your Vertical stringing can be related to stock issues/ barrel heat as well. High friction from twist, in high pressure loads causes a lot of heat.

i agree with darkker on the bullet weights, i have an 1-14 twist barrel and it loves the 52-53grnrs. with the 9 twist i think you would be shooting the 70-80grnrs. you might give them a tryy and pick a powder and work up a load for it, don't rush it!

thanks for the replys..my savage barrel was a 1-12 tw..the best load i found w ww748 and a 52 gr amax..suprer combination..now the criteriam is a 1-12 tw ..so i went to a 60gr vmax..shot for s///t..so i reverted to what i knew...52 gr & ww748..sgot better but still s//t...now i'm going to thry a 69 gr vmax and varget and see if it gets better,,and if it does i'll be the st to eat my words about citerian..if not chop saw. and a lot of negitive press

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Originally Posted by tome

anybody got a load for 1-9 22-250 ? i'm only going to go so far throwing money down this barrel..before this thing goes to the chop saw and we move on..any help would be appreciated.

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Years ago I put together an eight twist that was/still is very fussy about what it likes. Work up from 35 grains of H414 and a magnum primer in back of a 75 grain A max and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by tome

thanks for the replys..my savage barrel was a 1-12 tw..the best load i found w ww748 and a 52 gr amax..suprer combination..now the criteriam is a 1-12 tw ..so i went to a 60gr vmax..shot for s///t..so i reverted to what i knew...52 gr & ww748..sgot better but still s//t...now i'm going to thry a 69 gr vmax and varget and see if it gets better,,and if it does i'll be the st to eat my words about citerian..if not chop saw. and a lot of negitive press

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What??
Originally you stated the Criterian was a 9-twist, Now you say it's a 12-twist....
Regardless, this is a DIFFERENT barrel, it will like DIFFERENT loads than your original barrel. You can still shoot the lightweight bullets if you have a fast twist, you just need to slow down the velocities.

You say you are going to try the 69gr, a better choice for a 9-twist; but you are ALSO going to switch powder again??
Stop changing ALL variables, one at a time grasshopper, one at a time.

If a methodical work-up of loads isn't in your cards, I'm not sure why the barrel should get the bad press...

You said LRPV, so Large shank I presume... If so & If you actually think it is chop saw worthy; rather than lose all your money, I'll give you $50 for it.

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Originally Posted by tome

thanks for the replys..my savage barrel was a 1-12 tw..the best load i found w ww748 and a 52 gr amax..suprer combination..now the criteriam is a 1-12 tw ..so i went to a 60gr vmax..shot for s///t..so i reverted to what i knew...52 gr & ww748..sgot better but still s//t...now i'm going to thry a 69 gr vmax and varget and see if it gets better,,and if it does i'll be the st to eat my words about citerian..if not chop saw. and a lot of negitive press

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i was wondering as i was reading if anyone else had caught this slip-up. op stated a 9 twist and here you talking about an 12 twist. if it's still a 9 twist go to 70-80 grainers and try that. take your time and work up the loads. sounds like you're in a rush.

Why is it when a new rifle or a new barrel won't shoot good, the barrel is always the first to get the blame?
Usually the barrel is the last thing I suspect...if it gets that far.
It typically boils down to 2 things: 1. Optics. 2. Ammo. Always check the optics first. If the scope won't hold zero, no ammo or barrels are going to cure the problem. Once the scope is verified, you can then proceed to finding a load that the rifle likes.
I've heard the familiar phrase, "I've tried everything, and it still won't shoot". Translation:" I've tried everything I know", which turns out to be about a handful of combinations that didn't give instant gratification, therefore the barrel must be bad.

Don't forget the little things that can be easily overlooked. Check scope rings and bases, make sure everything is tight, that has got me before. Also check to make sure the new recoil lug isn't bottoming out. You may have to play with seating depth too, esp if you are getting pressure signs with a known good load.

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Originally Posted by LabRat2k3

Don't forget the little things that can be easily overlooked. Check scope rings and bases, make sure everything is tight, that has got me before.

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+1 on this!!

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

a handful of combinations that didn't give instant gratification

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I think that is the bulk of the issue.
There doesn't seem to be any semblance of load-work going on, just random components thrown at a problem.

I take umbridge to your comments..i started of w/ a savage lrpv ( leupold 6-20 vx- 3 W/ leupold 2 piece mounts )..that would shoot.. and tried to better it ..the rifle was assembled with the aid of a tourque wrench..stock bolts, scope bases and rings.. with a scope i took off a shooter ...so i put it back to a configuration that i knew would shoot..changing the barrel and recoil lug. i took a load from benchrest central for vmax 60 gr..followed it to the letter..full length resized and trimed brass...the 52 gr load came from that site and shot the best of any i tried in the old barrel.. the 80gr burger 6mmbr load from that site was a hummer from day one.. in converastion w/ criterian i asked if a 12 tw would stabilize a 52gr bullet..and was told it would...i'm 72 yrs old and this is hardly my 1st rodeo..been shooting from a kid...this is not a knock to criterian..hell thier president returned my phone call..after all the glowing praise of these barrels i didn't expect to get a barrel that was going to be a production to make shoot..and to Freds comments..i know enough to send him my 6mmbr lrpv for an evo trigger and a t &t job..which i jut got back..trigger is every thing i expected..thanks fred

No need to get offended. How is anyone here suppose to know your shooting or reloading skill level, when these are your first few posts? If you are going to ask for advice on the internet it is best to have thick skin because I guarantee you will not like every answer you get. Is it possible that you got a bad barrel, of course, but we can't just jump to that conclusion. Whenever I put something together and it doesn't work the way I think it should, whether it's a car, rifle, or kids toy, I just start taking it back apart one piece at a time and checking my work along the way. Maybe something is loose, maybe the barrel moved as you were tightening the barrel nut and changed your head spacing, maybe the recoil lug is bottoming out, maybe it's the load, maybe it is the barrel. There are so many variables that it is best to address them one at a time. Check you work, check the fit of everything, and then try a quality factory load and see how it shoots.

My factory 26" 1:9 twist 223 barrel shot the very first load I tried in it, which was taken from the internet, very very well. It also shoots a second load taken from this board very well too.

A 270 I used to own wouldn't shoot any internet loads worth a crap...or anything I tried in it, for that matter. I eventually gave up, but thats's not to say the barrel wouldn't shoot.

My Criterion 260 barrel didn't shoot internet-derived loads that great at first, but after a bit of load development found it likes a load in a range many others also noticed (43-43.5 H4350 with 140gr bullets).

I'm admittedly as lazy as they come, but ya can't expect a load that works in one barrel to necessarily work in another. Sure, there are common accuracy loads for nearly every chambering, but ya almost always have to develop on your own. Barrels have their own personalities; two different barrels of the same make, contour, length, and chamber made one after another using the same reamer might not like the same type bullet or charge weight.

You asked for "help" and were given some very sound advice by the good folks here.
You listed your procedures and asked for suggestions. You don't seem to want to accept them, which is perfectly fine. You asked for something and when given it, you take Umbrage??

Your posts contradict themselves:
-First you stated you bought a 9-twist, then it became a 12-twist. which is it?

-First you said the 60gr load came from accurateshooter, now you say from benchrest central. Which is it?

-Most recently you said "...so i put it back to a configuration that i knew would shoot..changing the barrel and recoil lug." The way I read your post, that comment is speaking to assembly of the NEW barrel and a NEW recoil lug.
IF that is the case, How is it you think you would KNOW that the assembly would shoot??

-You claimed originally that you were about ready to chop the barrel and give "a lot of negitive press". Now you say "this is not a knock to criterian". Which is it?

You say that you aren't new to reloading, but your methods counter that:
You see a load posted on the internet, but don't work up to it; just use it.
When you see it is high pressure, you ONLY back off .2 grain?! When that doesn't work you not only change bullet weight, but powder also; for another load you "found" on the internet....

I hope you will at least put on some safety glasses when using your chop saw.

Hi, I'm new here and don't know a ton about this particular problem, but is there any way there could be some copper fowling interfering with the performance? If it's a new barrel and has a few hundered rounds thru it I found that to be a problem with groups opening up after a short time.
Just a thought....