Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
The Stevens 200 was already the VW bug of the Savage family. Easy to turn into anything you want it to be.
The Axis would be the VW Type 4. It was a new model where everything was changed for no good reason. Making almost all the parts non-interchangeable with previous models.
The Axis and the Type 4 were great for what they were meant to be, but aren't well suited to turn it into anything else.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
I think a connection could be made here, but probably not what you are suggesting. VW...Axis...Hitler? VolksGewehr?
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Quote:
Originally Posted by geargrinder
The Stevens 200 was already the VW bug of the Savage family. Easy to turn into anything you want it to be.
The Axis would be the VW Type 4. It was a new model where everything was changed for no good reason. Making almost all the parts non-interchangeable with previous models.
The Axis and the Type 4 were great for what they were meant to be, but aren't well suited to turn it into anything else.
Geargrinder, you are totally intitled to your opinion, and I'm assuming you must have a lot of experience with the Axis??? yes?? And, why does any new rifle have to have any interchangable parts with an older design?????
The Stevens is a plain Jane Savage 11-111 series, many buy for just the action, and thats fine. But, can you turn the Stevens 200 from a short action into a long one with just a mag change??????
I have a .338 RUM built on a 116 that originally came from Savage factory as a brand new 7mm RUM with more problems then I had ever seen with any bolt action rifle, and I've owned Win.70, Rem 700 and Mauser 98's. I had to fix all those 116 problems myself, from feeding to extraction to all cartridges flying out of the magazine when bolt was opened, it was a nightmare... I could have easily turned my back on anything Savage at that point. But, I look over in my collection, to a 1927 .300 Sav. Model 99 take down and ponder the the cost of making that today.
I see many bugs being worked out, as some Axis rifles are getting to shooters with defects from spotty quality control. But, look at the target postings owners are now loading on this sight with a <$400 rifle, as Col. Townsend Whelen said.." Only accurate rifles are interesting"... The Axis to me is a modular design, much like the AR15, and also like that weapon, when it first came out, it's got a ways to go before I would commit it a predetermined failure or scrap heap of history.. When they handed me the M-16 in Vietnam, It looked like some kind of cheap toy, I did not want to turn loose of my M-14, Would I have believed today, some 44 years later, it would still be our military standard, or it would have the hundreds of aftermarket accessories,...no way!! I say wait and watch...
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
The biggest limiting factor for aftermarket parts is yet to be seen=TC and Ruger have entered the parts gun market.
My money is on TCs design (with improvements) takeing over??......Unless momma Smith screws it up!!
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Don't take what I said as a bash on the Axis. It wasn't. My point was that I doubt the Axis will take off as a platform for modifications. The reason is that the 110 bases actions already have all the support. The Axis doesn't offer any quality or performance improvements over the 110's.
The only advantage is that it is cheap.
Yes, I have swapped long and short actions and cartridges. I just built a 223 centerfeed repeater from a 110 7mmRM stagger feed action. Just a simple mag swap and it can go back and forth.
Being able to do that with an Axis just proves that it is a long action to begin with. Savage used to build everything on long actions, just different magazines. Tikka does it too. Nothing revolutionary.
I love my M99 take-down too. 250-3000Sav. My great-grandfather bought it new in 1917.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Just ordered long mag and triggerguard assembly for my .280 AI conversion from 7mm-08 $42. Also Savage agent told me boltfaces are interchangable with 11-110. if I want to try a WSM... I'm going to have a Stainless Steel 5.5 lb. .280 AI mountain rifle for under $500 total..... ;D
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Quote:
Originally Posted by 180pilot
I have a .338 RUM built on a 116 that originally came from Savage factory as a brand new 7mm RUM with more problems then I had ever seen with any bolt action rifle, and I've owned Win.70, Rem 700 and Mauser 98's. I had to fix all those 116 problems myself, from feeding to extraction to all cartridges flying out of the magazine when bolt was opened, it was a nightmare
I couldn't agree more 180pilot! My first two Savages I owned (one of which I recently sold on this forum, the other I sold locally) soured me on the 10\110\11\12 Savages. For what I paid for the Model 10 Precision Carbine I could have had a controlled round feed Ruger M77 Tactical and for what I paid for the 16 Weather Warrior I could have had a stainless All Weather M77. It seems like an all too common complaint that some form of feeding/extracting/ejecting problem IS going to plague your Savage while a controlled round feed rifle will always seem to work. Prices being equal I'm going to choose the CRF rifle and feel confident that it'll work. In days gone by the Savage was always a bit cheaper than the offerings of it's competitors and I think lower price, and their reputation for accuracy, is why they sold. Now that they essentially cost the same as a Ruger, Winchester, Remington, etc., maybe folks aren't so willing to accept functional shortcomings. I know I'm not. If I want a balky, project gun to play with I think the Axis is it. If the Axis does everything the model 10/11/12 does and for considerably less money then maybe I'd be willing to put up with operational problems since I don't expect perfection for $267, but for $700+ I certainly do. I'll NEVER buy another Savage 10/11/12, but I may very well buy an Axis. NOTHING becomes as popular as the Axis has without the aftermarket correcting problems and filling voids. It just takes time. The 10/11/12 may currently have the support but as more and more Axis owners start asking for parts you can bet they will be available. I'm sure I'll catch hell for this but I really think the days of the 10/11/12 are numbered. I wonder how many Axis' are sold for every 10/11/12 sold?
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
I have a hard time, buying new firearms that don't work. Certain brands get there good name, because they just work without fuss or two times back to the factory. I'm confident now, I can diagnose the extractor problems with Savage bolt guns. How they manage to get out of the factory the way some do, well, it's a people problem obviously, someone was lazy...Still, for a dangerous game gun, or in dangerous game territory,.......an FN Mauser, CZ, or M70, is in my hands. But, for everything else, a inexpensive rifle one can tinker with involving little expense, or long waiting for a gunsmith's doctoring, is "pursuit of happiness".
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Quote:
Originally Posted by 762X51
Prices being equal I'm going to choose the CRF rifle and feel confident that it'll work.
Not saying the Savages don't have a lot of ejection problems but I have seen LOTS of CRF rifles that have feeding problems too. Lots of them with broken parts after reasonable use as well.
And that isn't even considering doing something like turning them into an AI or changing a 308 to a 22-250 etc. Assuming CRF equals reliability isn't a good bet either.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric in NC
Quote:
Originally Posted by 762X51
Prices being equal I'm going to choose the CRF rifle and feel confident that it'll work.
Not saying the Savages don't have a lot of ejection problems...
Actually we could just stop right there. Balky functioning seems to be common knowledge among anyone familiar with Savage rifles. I certainly agree with you, and based on empirical data, so do A HUGE NUMBER of people. Just look at the number of posts on this forum regarding feeding/extraction/ejection!
...but I have seen LOTS of CRF rifles that have feeding problems too.
Here our experiences vary GREATLY. I've never owned or handled a stock, Mauser style, CRF rifle that wouldn't feed, extract and eject but I have owned and handled Savages that wouldn't function properly. A disproportionate number of them.
Lots of them with broken parts after reasonable use as well.
I'm not familiar with this phenomenon. Millions of Mauser style rifles stood up to the rigors of war.
And that isn't even considering doing something like turning them into an AI or changing a 308 to a 22-250 etc.
I have no doubt you can make ANY rifle malfunction by modifying it from it's original design but the issue at hand is making a rifle function in it's original factory built form, which Savage apparently has well known problems doing. There is ABSOLUTELY no question Savage is king when it comes to caliber swaps, and that's a GREAT reason to like Savage rifles, but it does nothing as far as design and reliability
Assuming CRF equals reliability isn't a good bet either.
Based on my personal experiences and more than 100 years of evidence I would say that a Mauser patterned CRF, compared to a push feed Savage, is a SURE bet.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Okay, to get things back on topic.... ;)
How about marketing slogans based on the comparison?
"The rifle that wants to take over the world!"
Is that too much?
How about
"Schießvergnügen"
Little stick figure cartoons shooting rifles?
And I can't wait for all the hippies to start packing these rifles around.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
I can tell you for a fact that the Axis rifles are not taking any sales away from the flagship models. The Axis/Edge rifles will only be 2 years old next month, but there is already over a quarter million copies out there. Considering that the 10/110 line has been around for over 50 years, and it took almost 40 of those for the after market to catch on, those small numbers mean nothing.
In the scheme of things, it's a drop in the bucket.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
:-\ Catch on...?? It's more of an instant information culture now, a good rifle is not word of mouth or occasional magazine articles...When a shooter these days wants to know cheapest, best way to build a wildcat,,he goes to the internet. And, so does aftermarket equipment manufacturers research... I won't be here in 40 yrs. to prove or disprove any theory....but my gut tells me, this bad economy slows everything down, but we will see aftermarket stocks etc. and it won't take 40 yrs....We already have barrels and triggers......
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
I'll believe it when there are 338 Lapua's built on them and when Sharpshooter develops a 4 oz trigger for them. Until then, it's just a cheap copy of the real thing.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
I said Volkswagen, not Porsche ::)
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Quote:
Originally Posted by 762X51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric in NC
Quote:
Originally Posted by 762X51
Prices being equal I'm going to choose the CRF rifle and feel confident that it'll work.
...but I have seen LOTS of CRF rifles that have feeding problems too.
Here our experiences vary GREATLY. I've never owned or handled a stock, Mauser style, CRF rifle that wouldn't feed, extract and eject but I have owned and handled Savages that wouldn't function properly. A disproportionate number of them.
Lots of them with broken parts after reasonable use as well.
I'm not familiar with this phenomenon. Millions of Mauser style rifles stood up to the rigors of war.
Assuming CRF equals reliability isn't a good bet either.
Based on my personal experiences and more than 100 years of evidence I would say that a Mauser patterned CRF, compared to a push feed Savage, is a SURE bet.
Never played much with 1917s (broken ejectors and trouble feeding anything other than 150 grain FMJs), Siamese Mausers (trouble feeding anything), 1903 Springfields with bent ejectors, various commercial (Daly) Mausers with extractors that bend or 91 Mausers?
Tons of push feed guns are VERY reliable (Enfields, old model Ruger 77s). Its not a design concept problem, it is a QC problem that Savage has.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Don't take me the wrong way, I've been studying the market since they came out. Matter of fact, I have a prototype trigger finished and am wondering if it's worthwhile to go ahead and make a run.
Just because this rifle is less expensive for Savage to produce, does not mean that after market parts are also going to be cheap. The fact is they will probably cost more than 10/110 after market parts.
For example: The stocks on Axis rifles also incorporate the trigger guard and magazine retention system, one of the ways to cut manufacturing costs. To replace this system with wood, it will require some hardware to facilitate a drop in unit. This will increase costs over just a plain wood stock. That's why nobody has jumped on it yet. The after market has to look at what the demand is and what the market will pay. This will determine whether thousands of dollars are spent on engineering and tooling to produce items that will fit current production units, and predicting whether this is a passing fad or if it's good for the long haul. It's all about the money.
So, in the long run once you pay more for after market upgrades, do you really have a better rifle than a Stevens or a Savage with the same upgrades, or have you just put frosting on a turd?
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
I had a turd once, many years ago, a .222 Rem, Sav. 340, wood screwed on trigger guard, and magazine sheet metal \catch screwed to action bottom,.........Seems like it accounted for as many varmints as my well healed buddy's beautiful Sako .222 Rem..at the time.. Anyway, just got my hands on my 7mm-08 SS Axis, ( you know that nomenclature is definitely not PC ) ;D Someone thought this stock out.... trigger guard big enough for good use with gloves and the safety also. The small diameter look of the grip area is deceiving, and still works with my LG hands. It and the anti slip moldings feel like this will work well in wet and cold. Weighed in at 6.3 lbs with mag installed. What I have concerns about so far: The plastic spring on magazine and corresponding plastic lip catch on stock. Time and wear or breakage may show these to be weak spots, needing some modification, but, my Glocks haven't let go yet. The forearm is not very stiff and can be pushed up against barrel, depending how it shoots when supported, I may spot exoxy a 6061 T6 alloy aluminum tube in forearm, or glue silicone rubber shim at front of forearm to actually apply some vibration absorbing upward pressure. My object though, is to keep it as light as possible. Now; complete disassemble, inspection, cleaning, lube, scope and some factory rds. down range for test.......later....
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Quote:
Originally Posted by 180pilot
Anyway, just got my hands on my 7mm-08 SS Axis, ( you know that nomenclature is definitely not PC ) ;D
If you replaced the indian head logo with lightning bolts it might cross a line. ;)
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Gear
Wanta bet Fred has already built one of those 5 oz triggers?
Just not a big enough market there yet to spend all the money to bring it to market.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Water Bill
Gear
Wanta bet Fred has already built one of those 5 oz triggers?
Just not a big enough market there yet to spend all the money to bring it to market.
Probably, but I'd be willing to bet that 99% of Axis owners didn't buy them to turn them into benchrest rigs.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Water Bill
Gear
Wanta bet Fred has already built one of those 5 oz triggers?
Just not a big enough market there yet to spend all the money to bring it to market.
It won't quite go to 5 oz. but it will go to 12.
Re: Axis and the Volkswagen
OK Fred
Betcha a hamburger with onions and cheese you can get it down there before the next shootout at Youngs 1K range. :) :)
