A question about a 17 wildcat (or maybe a 22 cal wildcat)

I'm wondering if anyone has ever done a 17 cal wildcat, that is close to the 17HMR in speeds? I know there are WAY faster, but I am looking for a fairly quiet round (17 HMR level) for taking out ground squirrels. It also, I envision, would be lower in cost to shoot than either the WMR or HMR, since it's reloadable. Is there anything out there already?

seems like one based on a shortened 223 cartridge ought to work. I'm guessing it would be about 1/2 the length of current 223 cases. When I am paying from $11 to $13 a box of 50, reloading has to be the way to go, but I do not want a super loud round.

Maybe a 17 cal on a shortened 221 Fireball case, 17/22 Hornet or a 17/5.7X28? the 5.7X28 necked to 17 cal may be your best bet for being quiet. Shortening 223 brass puts you into the area where brass is heavier and necks will need to be reamed or turned after forming.

http://www.6mmbr.com/17wildcats.html

The are already the .17 Remington (based on the .222 Rem.) the 17 Fireball (based on the .221 Fireball) and the .17 Mach IV all of which are commercial Remington cartridges.

Might check out the forums at the small caliber website www.saubier.com They have a lot of info on almost every type of 17cal wildcat available.

Last year I had a old Rem. in a 222 that would shoot around corners and was about ready to get rid of it. I had heard about the .17 MK4 and thought that would be a good thing to play with, so I called Manson and was going to order the MK4 reamer. He suggested the .17 Rem Fireball . . and that was a good choice. It is a kick to shoot, still a bit loud for a quiet gun that you are looking for. If you want a fairly quiet gun to shoot, try the .17 MK2, that is a standard 22 LR necked to .17, that may fill the bill a bit better, but the cost of ammo will be the deciding factor, it is considerably more than .22 LR ammo. If you are not shooting much over 75 yards, a 22 will do the job very well, been there and done that too. I had a Savage 880 SQ with a 4x12 on top of it that I used to shoot Ground Squirrels with, that was back when the Peoples Republic of California allowed 22 caliber lead bullets. It would reach out to 100 yards pretty well, but if they were inside that they were history, outside that it took some creative adjustments to hit one consistently. . . . ;)

The .17 Rem Fireball is one nice cartridge to shoot, it will reach 300 yards and put the hurt on a Prairie Dog, done it !! So little recoil that even at that distance you get to see the impact of the bullet. I used a McGowen Barrel, 1:10 and shoot the 20gr. Hornady V-Max bullets with 4198 powder, I load for accuracy not velocity and it chrono'd at 3890 fps last time I did it with that load. I had purchased a couple of boxes of factory when I first got it together and they were going 4023 fps. I have not been able to attain that velocity with any of my loads yet, and found that when I did get to that threshold accuracy with away. It is really impressive out to the 200 yard line, nearly no drop at all . .

That was a really good link to the 6mmbr and the .17 wildcats, but building a wildcat is very time consuming for brass and all the sizing dies that go along with it. There is a place you can go to get more information on the .17's it is the Woodchuck Den, Tod Kindler has a book that you can buy and he has done an excellent job of putting the information together on just about all of the .17's, besides it is a very good read on some of the more exotic of them.

The only thing that gave the .17's a bad name is the fowling in the barrel, and it is True !! They will foul quickly, but there is some material out that will give that some life . . Ultra-Bore Coat. I put that down the barrel and now I get upwards of 100 rounds before I have to clean it with a foam cleaner, one 15 minute setting and it is back to it's ole self again . . neat material !

Phantom . . .

You might ask around about BlueDot or 800X loads for a 17Fireball. You might give the guys at Calhoun Bullets a call they did allot o work with loads like that.

375Win

Not to hi-jack the thread or anything, but I wonder if you had the barrel Nitrided, if it would cut down or eliminate the fouling. Just something to ponder.

You can't load anything that will be less expensive than the 17 HMR.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

You can't load anything that will be less expensive than the 17 HMR.

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Not sure I agree with that, I will say it depends. Around here the 22 WMR and 17 HMR both go for about $13-15 for 50. Sure some places sell a lot cheaper online, but factor in shipping and it gets right back up there. Cheaper than Dirt, wanted over $16 for shipping 5 boxes of WMR ammo. That's ridiculous. That brings them to over 13 a box. It might be a break even proposition, but with CA. ammo laws, I might not even be able to order online much longer.

The Fireball sounds good, but I am sure it's way too loud.

My ranges reach out to about 140, where I shoot. I do use the 22LR for the under 50yd shots and I'd go with the HMR before the Mach II. I had an HMR once before and I was hoping for something in the 3000-3200 range with a 20gr bullet. That would be plenty flat to 150yds and shouldn't be too loud.

Bolt head question; will the .378 bolt face work with the .360 case head of a 30 Carbine? There is a 17 based on the 30 carbine and it would be nice if the bolt head would work.

I don't know what distances you are hunting at, but for close work maybe a 17 with trail boss would work good. I haven't tried it in a 17 but loaded at that slow speed it might sound like a 22. With a heavier bullet you should retain enough energy for squirrels.

edit: I saw you said 150 yards, a couple posts back now. That would be a little out of range. I posted on your other thread too about the 17 ccm, you would need a custom bolt face. Maybe look into the 17 bumblebee, it is a cut down bee case so the capacity is right in line with what you are looking for.

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Originally Posted by GaCop

Maybe a 17 cal on a shortened 221 Fireball case, 17/22 Hornet or a 17/5.7X28? the 5.7X28 necked to 17 cal may be your best bet for being quiet. Shortening 223 brass puts you into the area where brass is heavier and necks will need to be reamed or turned after forming.

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Anyone seen the advertized 5.7X28 in model 25 yet? What about new brass?

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Originally Posted by appleseed

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Originally Posted by GaCop

Maybe a 17 cal on a shortened 221 Fireball case, 17/22 Hornet or a 17/5.7X28? the 5.7X28 necked to 17 cal may be your best bet for being quiet. Shortening 223 brass puts you into the area where brass is heavier and necks will need to be reamed or turned after forming.

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Anyone seen the advertized 5.7X28 in model 25 yet? What about new brass?

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Looking at the case size of the 5.7, it looks like it might be difficult to make that work, at least on the SA size action. The case capacity is probably close to ideal for my intentions , but I didn't really want to even consider buying another rifle to make it work.

I really do wonder just how short I can go on case length here, and still make it feed. May very well end up being a single shot.

OK after MUCH thought I think I have a solution. Since the Rem 17 Fireball is already .3" shorter than the 223, but uses essentially the same brass, what if I started off with the fireball brass and shorten it another .2 or .3"? Most likely this would be tricky to get it to feed from a magazine, but that is no biggie. For what I want to use it for, single shot is OK too.

I could have a short chambered fireball barrel, and turn the dies down to match. I am after about about 3200 tops FPS with a 17gr bullet, and about 2500-2700 with a 25gr. As mentioned earlier, I am looking for slightly better than 17 HMR performance.

Since I am on that kick, could I get away with shortening the chamber of a 223 barrel, towards getting 22 WMR or slightly better performance? I could use the 30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade to equal the 30gr "green" bullet.

Brass question;
If I did either of the above, would I just shorten the 223 brass and run it through a shortened FL sizer die? Once the neck or shoulder of a case have been removed, is there more than one step to forming the new, shorter brass? If all this is possible, I might just do it with a .224 barrel, since they are a lot more plentiful.

I'm getting excited about this so I am sure someone will let the air out of my balloon idea. Go ahead shoot it down...

how about necking down a pistol cartridge like a 357 or 9mm or 38

.17 hornet

No matter how you do it, it won't be cheaper than a .17 HMR. By the time you figure in components and dies and the work involved, even divided by 1000 rds, the HMR is less expensive. Trying to fill that gap between the HMR and a Fireball is harder than you think, as small cases are not only finicky, but hard to accommodate to a larger based receiver. I'm not trying to kick the props out from under you, but I've been there, done that, and it was not by any means "cheap" but I did get an education. Knowledge has a price.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

No matter how you do it, it won't be cheaper than a .17 HMR. By the time you figure in components and dies and the work involved, even divided by 1000 rds, the HMR is less expensive. Trying to fill that gap between the HMR and a Fireball is harder than you think, as small cases are not only finicky, but hard to accommodate to a larger based receiver. I'm not trying to kick the props out from under you, but I've been there, done that, and it was not by any means "cheap" but I did get an education. Knowledge has a price.

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Except that I don't own an HMR so the cost of the gun has to be factored as well. I own a 22 WMR, but at $14 or more a box it's getting ridiculous. I have one last thing to try before I pounce on a project. That is reduced loads in my 223. I have done some experimenting in the past with H4985, as per Hodgdons info, but not for the purpose of competing with the WMR.

I will have to get a can or two of H4895 and some Varmint Grenade bullets and give it a go. At 16-18gr of powder it's a lot more than the tiny "project" calibers, but since there is nothing to buy but power and bullets, the initial cost is much less.

I will post my results. The last time I tried it, was several years back and my chrono was acting up at the time.

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Originally Posted by M.O.A.

how about necking down a pistol cartridge like a 357 or 9mm or 38

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Those AND the Hornet cases are all rimmed and folks seem to be telling me to shy away from those for the Savage SA. Otherwise the 17 K-Hornet would be close to perfect for a lot of reasons.

OK couldn't wait to get to the store, so loaded up some with what I had to see if the velocity range was gonna be where I want it. It will.

I made up some reduced loads with IMR 4895 and 35 gr Vmaxes. I loaded some at 17gr, some at 18 gr and some at 19 gr.

Average vel for the 17gr loads was 2076fps. Average for the 18gr loads was 2171. Average for the 19gr loads was 2376. I tried to get some sort of accuracy test, but 2 factors really skewed the results. First, and foremost was no rest available and I was a bit too wobbly to make it worthwhile. Second, was I was using my 16" barreled mini 14 and not my Savage bolt. It seems the rifle I thought I had in the safe was last made into a 243, and not a 223 like I thought I had done (memory goin a bit I guess). So I will continue on that line to get a suitable load for accuracy (in the correct rifle) and using the "green" bullets. Wouldn't want them condors picking up my used lead.

Anyway, it looks like this is no longer a "wildcat" thread, so I will end it here. Thanks for all the suggestions and helpful hints. Sometimes I guess you can look all over for something and find it staring you in the face.

I will post in the standard caliber section when I get a load that works for me.

17 Shrew is just the ticket if you want a wildcat.

There is a lot of data on Saubier using Trail Boss powder in the 17 fireball, hmr velocities with low report.

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Originally Posted by BigTim

There is a lot of data on Saubier using Trail Boss powder in the 17 fireball, hmr velocities with low report.

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I did a search over there and couldn't find anything.

Search is sometimes finicky , I'll try to post some.