Not too shabby - part ii

Understandably...for the reasons I gave in my 1st post...I'm very happy with my Low Profile Varmint in 243.

Considering another Savage rifle in 243...lighter for carrying...basically for mid-sized game inside 300 yards. I have 2 other rifles for BG...up close (35 Whelen)...and long range (.270 Weatherby). So, I'm good with my 3 rifle battery. Here's my question.

Totally spoiled by my Varminter accuracy...is it even possible to expect .5" moa or preferably less accuracy with a good load and a lighter Savage rifle focused on hunting? Don't want ultra-light. Rifle ONLY weight of 6.5 to 8 lbs perfectly acceptable.

Your thoughts please.

Thanks.

Of course that can be achieved. Remember this: heavier barrels aren’t inherently more accurate. A heavier barrel simply retains better accuracy over a faster string of fire. Because as a barrel heats up, accuracy will be affected. And thinner barrels heat up quicker. But they also cool down quicker. When it comes to hunting however, are you more worried about a 5 or 10-shot grouping, or POI of the first shot? Regardless, I’ve seen more than a couple consistent <.5moa, lighter weight rifles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Of course that can be achieved. Remember this: heavier barrels aren’t inherently more accurate. A heavier barrel simply retains better accuracy over a faster string of fire. Because as a barrel heats up, accuracy will be affected. And thinner barrels heat up quicker. But they also cool down quicker. When it comes to hunting however, are you more worried about a 5 or 10-shot grouping, or POI of the first shot? Regardless, I’ve seen more than a couple consistent <.5moa, lighter weight rifles.

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Your comment: consistent <.5moa, lighter weight rifles.

Not asking you to guarantee anything...can you name a few? Manufacturer & model?

Thank you.

Oh, I apologize. No, nothing I can point to at this very minute. I’m referring to shooters I’ve seen both online & witnessed personally over the last 3 decades I’ve spent shooting. And not factory rifles. I didn’t realize that is what you meant. I took as if you asking if it’s possible period. Although, there have been more than a few people here who were getting those results from their new Savages as well.

It's possible, but, not 'normal'. Took my two rifles, both heavy barrel, quite a few rounds to settle into less than MOA levels and more to reach 0.5MOA. Only one of the two was really able to stay below 0.5MOA.

Like Dave said, it would not be capable of a 5 or 10 shot string unless you waited for the barrel to cool completely between shots. FWIW, back when I hunted I would shoot 3 rounds, one at each target. Then clean the gun. Shoot three shots at three targets again. Repeat. That would make a 1st round group, second round group and third round group. Rarely were they all in the same place, but, the 1st round group might be a small group and wound be offset from the second group by a certain amount. Same with the 3rd round group.

Savage used to mention that when they tested std hunting barrels they would shoot a 3 round group. If it was less than 1 1/2" it passed. Heavy target/varmint barrels were 5 rounds and 1". That used to be on their FAQ page a few years ago, but it is gone now so not sure if policy is the same.

Dave & Charlie,

Thank you for the replies. Helpful.

Over the years, I've owned multiple rifles of another manufacturer, each rifle repeatedly, dependably delivering well under MOA. I may go that route again? Was just asking for options.

Thanks again.

Cheers.

Definitely possible, but you have more factors to contend with - the main one being increased barrel harmonics with a smaller contour. I would actually say 1/2" to 3/4" is pretty easy to attain with a properly worked up handload, even with a pencil barrel. Smaller than that is possible, but I wouldn't count on it being the norm unless you get a real hum-dinger of a barrel.

The biggest thing is KNOWING and ACCEPTING that with a smaller/lighter barrel contour you're not going to be able to maintain accuracy over as many consecutive shots as you would in a heavy barrel due to heat buildup causing the POI to rise. The choice of cartridge will also affect this due to how much powder is being burnt. If you limit yourself to shooting 3-shot groups rather than the typical five you should be ok. In a smaller cartridge (.22 Hornet, .222, .223, etc.) you can often still get away with 5-shot groups before heat becomes an issue, but once you step up to a .308 diameter case there's too much powder being burnt to stick with 5-shot groups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taidog1

Dave & Charlie,

Thank you for the replies. Helpful.

Over the years, I've owned multiple rifles of another manufacturer, each rifle repeatedly, dependably delivering well under MOA. I may go that route again? Was just asking for options.

Thanks again.

Cheers.

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Well under MOA is a LOT different than under 0.5MOA consistently. I would hazard that most Savages will do under MOA with the right loads and some offer more leeway in that regard. There are very few off the shelf rifles that can consistently shoot under 0.5MOA with factory ammo. There are exceptions but it is still a crap shoot at that level. Quite a few in this forum have Savages that have done it, just not all of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taidog1

Totally spoiled by my Varminter accuracy...is it even possible to expect .5" moa or preferably less accuracy with a good load and a lighter Savage rifle focused on hunting? Don't want ultra-light. Rifle ONLY weight of 6.5 to 8 lbs perfectly acceptable.

Your thoughts please.

Thanks.

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Let me throw this out there.....Our junior rifle program provided .223's, two of which were
Savage Axis 22 inch barrels with Nikon scopes. The rifles could shoot a 1/2 MOA 5 shot
group and do it in a 3 minute time period. The kids were being drilled every Monday
evening to try and win a spot at the monthly Ridgway VBR shoots. Ammo was factory
55 grain Remington as provided by the club. A friend of mine has an Axis in 7/08, I
scoped for him. He loads the Berger 140 gr Hunters. It will shoot 2" at 300 yards with
a bipod and rear squeeze bag with them bullets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fuj'

Let me throw this out there.....Our junior rifle program provided .223's, two of which were
Savage Axis 22 inch barrels with Nikon scopes. The rifles could shoot a 1/2 MOA 5 shot
group and do it in a 3 minute time period. The kids were being drilled every Monday
evening to try and win a spot at the monthly Ridgway VBR shoots. Ammo was factory
55 grain Remington as provided by the club. A friend of mine has an Axis in 7/08, I
scoped for him. He loads the Berger 140 gr Hunters. It will shoot 2" at 300 yards with
a bipod and rear squeeze bag with them bullets.

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Fuj' and everyone else, Thanks, your replies are encouraging & appreciated.

Being an old curmudgeon, fussy about tight groups, my long habit has always been to let the barrel cool down before firing the 2nd, 3rd, 4th shot etc.

Will spend some time this week-end looking at a few Savage rifles in .243 with the adjustable trigger.

Have a good day.

Cheers!

Taidog1,

From one old curmudgeon to another, I am past the 80 year mark and have learned in the last 10 years that 6 of my Savage rifles - a 12 FV .223, three Savage 6.5mm CMs, and two Savage .308s - can all consistently average under 0.5 inches for hundreds of groups. Savage makes pretty accurate rifles that probably can perform even better than most of us normally do.

My 12 FV has averaged 0.282 for 1151 groups, and the Top 100 loads (407 groups) average 0.244.
My three 6.5CMs - a 12 LRP, a 12 FV and a 10T-SR - average .363, .339 and .383 for 547, 645 and 175 groups respectively, and the top 100 loads average 0.317, 0.309 and 0.383 respectively.
My two .308s - a 10 FP and a 10 FCP-K - average 0.419 and 0.411 for 301 and 477 groups respectively, and the top 100 loads average 0.401 and 0.366 respectively. Both have many loads that were shot before I found a solution to my "shooter induced variation".

I found that my better loads were a product of finding bullets and bullet weights that each barrel preferred and powders that performed best.
Sometimes the best performers don't follow any logic, but lots of bullets down range confirmed that the results were statistically correct.
Notice that my accuracy seems to degrade somewhat as the caliber and recoil increases. I only weigh 147 pounds so recoil moves me around a lot and increases the importance of getting back into the same firing position if I want to achieve the best accuracy with rifles with heavier recoil.

I had an epiphany about 10 years ago when I began experimenting with exit time. I found that my 'shooter induced variation' kept me from even seeing any change when adjusting for exit time.
I started to find ways to remove some of that variation that was impacting my accuracy and within little over a year, I had reduced my group size averages from the high 0.6s to well under 0.5 even into the 0.3s, at least for the lighter recoiling calibers.
I found that consistent set-up position was a key to consistent accuracy and that being sure that I was in the optical center of the scope resulted in the bullet hitting where I was aiming.
I found out the hard way that the reticle isn't always aiming where you think it is. Being slightly off the optical plane or creeping up on the eyepiece causes the reticle to be off the intended point of impact.

I am sure that your years of shooting has gotten you to shoot pretty accurately and your .243 results show that.
But, after I was pretty confident with my shooting ability, I still found a big improvement in accuracy, just by working on improving my set-up consistency after I realized I was a big part of my "shooter induced variation".

I bet you also can find some improvement in performance by concentrating by what I and most of us don't realize is robbing us of more accurate performance.
Do that and you will probably find that your .243 will consistently produce under 0.5 inches at 100 yards with 5-round groups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CFJunkie

Taidog1,

From one old curmudgeon to another, I am past the 80 year mark and have learned in the last 10 years that 6 of my Savage rifles - a 12 FV .223, three Savage 6.5mm CMs, and two Savage .308s - can all consistently average under 0.5 inches for hundreds of groups. Savage makes pretty accurate rifles that probably can perform even better than most of us normally do.

My 12 FV has averaged 0.282 for 1151 groups, and the Top 100 loads (407 groups) average 0.244.
My three 6.5CMs - a 12 LRP, a 12 FV and a 10T-SR - average .363, .339 and .383 for 547, 645 and 175 groups respectively, and the top 100 loads average 0.317, 0.309 and 0.383 respectively.
My two .308s - a 10 FP and a 10 FCP-K - average 0.419 and 0.411 for 301 and 477 groups respectively, and the top 100 loads average 0.401 and 0.366 respectively. Both have many loads that were shot before I found a solution to my "shooter induced variation".

I found that my better loads were a product of finding bullets and bullet weights that each barrel preferred and powders that performed best.
Sometimes the best performers don't follow any logic, but lots of bullets down range confirmed that the results were statistically correct.
Notice that my accuracy seems to degrade somewhat as the caliber and recoil increases. I only weigh 147 pounds so recoil moves me around a lot and increases the importance of getting back into the same firing position if I want to achieve the best accuracy with rifles with heavier recoil.

I had an epiphany about 10 years ago when I began experimenting with exit time. I found that my 'shooter induced variation' kept me from even seeing any change when adjusting for exit time.
I started to find ways to remove some of that variation that was impacting my accuracy and within little over a year, I had reduced my group size averages from the high 0.6s to well under 0.5 even into the 0.3s, at least for the lighter recoiling calibers.
I found that consistent set-up position was a key to consistent accuracy and that being sure that I was in the optical center of the scope resulted in the bullet hitting where I was aiming.
I found out the hard way that the reticle isn't always aiming where you think it is. Being slightly off the optical plane or creeping up on the eyepiece causes the reticle to be off the intended point of impact.

I am sure that your years of shooting has gotten you to shoot pretty accurately and your .243 results show that.
But, after I was pretty confident with my shooting ability, I still found a big improvement in accuracy, just by working on improving my set-up consistency after I realized I was a big part of my "shooter induced variation".

I bet you also can find some improvement in performance by concentrating by what I and most of us don't realize is robbing us of more accurate performance.
Do that and you will probably find that your .243 will consistently produce under 0.5 inches at 100 yards with 5-round groups.

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Thanks CF, will do. Sorry for the late reply - been out of town.