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I replaced my barrel today using the wrench Northland sells. I saw torque setting of 35 to 40 foot pounds posted by a few that had replaced barrels. I used 2 different torque wrenches and can't even get a click at 10 pounds, and I feel it's very tight. Is there a spec when using these wrenches that is different than what i have been reading. BTW, tried 2 different torque wrenches and both acted the same.
That’s odd. Please don’t be offended as I don’t know your background, but how comfortable are you with DIY tasks with firearms and with using a Torque wrench? Many torque wrenches don’t really give a very audible “click”, more like they just “give” a bit. It’s actually not even very perceptible at 10lbs. Very easy to just push past the “click” or “give” as it is. Try a very slow soft touch when hold the wrench’s head with your support hand & push the handle slow & soft. Don’t just barrel into it.
On a side note; you don’t need to worry about going tighter. Many of us here who have been working on & building Savages for many years, Torque the Barrel Nuts much MUCH tighter. I tighten mine to 75ft.lbs. And I’ve heard of others going higher.
They torque them to 70 or 75ft-lbs at the factory if I remember right.
Attachment 8979
As long as it is snug + your good. No tuning involved with torque, just keeping it together. Give your wrench a lite tap with a hammer if you question if it needs more. 3/8" wrench would be more sensitive if your going to do enough to warrant more tools.
+1Quote:
As long as it is snug + your good. No tuning involved with torque, just keeping it together. Give your wrench a lite tap with a hammer if you question if it needs more.
There are countless posts and articles by rifle builders that claim anything less than 75 ft/lbs has the potential for point of impact shift. Some big names go as high at 90 ft/lbs. I am one that will go 80-90 ft/lbs at 90* to the wrench. I like experience and the factory is normally who designs this stuff with their specs. All of us do what makes us feel comfortable.
From the factory, the barrel nuts are GORILLA TIGHT. Ask anybody that had broken one loose for the first time. :eek: :eek:
Nothing fancy needed to secure the barrel. As mentioned, nut wrench gets a TAP with a steel hammer, double check the headspace and go shooting. Same with breaking the barrel nut loose for the first time. Don't pull, SMACK THE WRENCH. Steel on steel gets the job done.
Torque wrench is for cylinder head bolts, main bearing caps and lug nuts.
I guess I got bad ones. Didn't seem to take that much to get mine loose, either the Axis or the 12. Getting the nut off the barrel (once it was unscrewed from the action) was a bit difficult with all the grit on the threads. I ended up cleaning up the threads then unthreading the nut.
I put mine back on without a torque wrench, but, it was 'really tight' with the 1/2" bar.
I can break my barrels loose, (after the first time) swap to another, set headspace and put it back together in less than 10 minutes. No torque or action wrench needed, ever!! NEVER had one come loose!!
i tap wrench once hard.good enough.
so that’s the gorilla we’ve all been complaining about over the years of trying to remove some factory barrels….lol
I think that must be the new gorilla. I took a 112V apart from the late 70's and his cheater bar is about 1/2 the length my 6'6" 250lb frame needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by pdog06
You know it's tight when you split a nut.....Any of my bench guns, I never torqued the nut
over 50 ft. lbs. But long gone is the nut. All my barrels are shouldered and at 40 ft. lbs.
I still love the Barrel Nut. Especially with these nuts I use now. I actually really do like the look of them. I find it visually appealing. LOL!
https://i.ibb.co/JmgSjJw/246-C00-D3-...EA89-BA7-D.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/bjVtB55/5-B972-C54-...C28-A9-C34.png
Dave.....I ordered one of those nuts from the maker in Canada. I just thought to
try it on an action I switch barrels a lot for fire forming my cats. I was disappointed
on how sloppy the threading was. They sent me a return tag, and it went back. As an
after thought, I just had them refund the money. It's a shame because generally it's
one hell of a nut. Oh.....It did'nt fit my 2 standard wrenches.
Hmm. None of that on mine TV. They even gave me the wrenches with. I ordered one & it was lost in the mail. So they sent me another. Few days later the first one showed up. They told me to keep both. Good CS..good business.
Did you try your standard wrench on the new style nut ?? There was nothing really stated thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
you had to also purchase their wrench. It was apparent that my standard wrench's were too small
in diameter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuj'
Man! I completely missed this question. Sorry about that Fuj’. Standard wrench works perfectly fine on these Barrel Nuts. The company just makes a wrench also. It’s smaller & red. I didn’t buy it extra. The company just gave it to me free. Their customer service was really good.
So who is making/selling those new style barrel nuts? Liking the looks. :cool: And the standard nut wrench fits?
Mike, that one I use is from International Barrels in Canada. Can’t buy a barrel directly from them, but the barrel nut is no problem. Here is the pretty extensive list of ALL aftermarket Barrel Nuts available. Several of us were discussing them in a thread & Jim put a nice Article together showcasing them. https://www.savageshooters.com/conte...el-Nut-OptionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie
Mikie.....Dave say's no problem, and I'm saying my two wrenches did not fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie
Actually the reason I sent it back was, the threads were loose to the point that
once fully threaded and before tightening, the nut could be rocked back an forth.
This was all large shank. My particular nut should have never made it passed
inspection.
Thanks Dave and Fuji. Just when we thought all nuts were the same. I have noticed, it depends on who cuts the barrel threads.
Some nuts are a little snug but a little off the points and most nuts will fit. I prefer snug than sloppy. After all, they ARE machined. ;)
Mine is Small Shank. This is the same with barrels. How many times have we seen people come and say their barrel nut won’t screw on the new barrel threads, but fine on the old barrel? And we’ve told them to use sand paper on the the barrel threads. It’s because the sizes are often called 1-1/16” & 1–1/8” for Small & Large Shank. So, 1.062” & 1.125”. But in actually, they are 1.055” & 1.120”, respectively. However, I’ve never heard of any evidence supporting that a slightly tighter or looser fitting barrel nut, lends itself to accuracy differences. Only the overall tightness. The Article Jim did even corroborates this for even using an Aftermarket machined Barrel Nut. They are nicer, better looking & generally better fitting. But does that translate to better accuracy? No, it does not. The barrel to Receiver threading is what dictates how square the barrel is. The barrel nut serves only to lock the barrel in place. So if a nut is slightly loose or slightly tight… as long as it can be torqued correctly, it’s served it’s purpose. While my Barrel Nut was slightly looser fitting than some others I’ve felt, it wasn’t to the extreme that Fuj’ experienced. And my Wheeler wrench fit the nut just fine. The company just sent me the wrench as a kindness. I tighten them to 75ft.lbs. And it is locked in place.
Oh, the ones I have, once fully threaded they did not rock. They were simply a bit looser threading on. So that, coupled with Fuj’s not fitting the barrel wrenches he had, makes me think he just had a dud. Which they would have gladly taken care of. At least the guy I dealt with, who was one of the owners. Super nice Canadians, eh?
I just purchased am Axis in 6.5 Creedmoor (the most cost effective rifle in the rack) as a "donor" action. The Brux barrel is still a few weeks out and wishing to check out my scope setup without purchasing ammo in a new caliber, I decided to install a Steven's barrel in .308. Not only was the nut torqued by their trained gorilla, but they decided to further secure it with a sealant that makes red Locktite seem wimpy.
I have never had to use this amount of force to remove a Savage barrel.
There is a big difference in the od of the threads being slightly undersized and the pitch diameter being undersized. The 2 are not the same. The pitch diameters on a Savage barrel are based on the nominal(1.0625" and 1.125"). The od is not near as critical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Yes, you are correct. Sorry. The math involved before hand.. finding the Pitch Radius using ES, TD &TD2 is extremely important. Forgive my over simplification of simply the thread height. But it’s still numbers in, settings made and threads come out. There’s no mysticism.. no art, right? The machine only knows to do what the user tells it. And of course it’s tolerance holding capability, right? My point was a slightly tighter/loser nut doesn’t add to accuracy potential. (And I’m speaking about bore/thread cutting squareness) But the actual “play”, only matters to the clamping torque, right?
I think Fuj’ had a bad specimen. It happens. I’ve had two of these & they don’t rock when threaded on. But they aren’t as tight as other nuts I’ve felt.
Play in the nut should not matter that much. The squared faces of receiver and nut along with the concentricity of the threads of the barrel and receiver are the important parts. A corollary can be made to a shouldered barrel. The barrel threads and shoulder must be square to the receiver threads and face. The taper of the threads will 'center' the barrel in the receiver bore when it is torqued down.
The play in the nut will affect the strength of the threaded portion. Not really an issue for our application.
I would assume (bad thing) that most of these nuts are being made on a CNC. If so it could be as simple as someone setting up the machine wrong, or having an improper cutting bit installed. If the mfg relies on manual QC they might not check carefully enough. Easy enough to mess it up. Sometimes a nice phone call or email can fix the issue.
:oQuote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
Do you think something else will center the barrel? There is slop in all threaded connections. The receiver face and nut face will make the barrel stay in line with each other, but, neither will center the barrel.
I certainly defer to Robin on single point threading. I couldn’t tell you which bits work best, or give pointers. I simply understand the “HOW To” of doing it. Conceptual knowledge, I don’t have working knowledge as I don’t have a lathe.
There are forces being applied outside of the thread surfaces being pulled together. Those forces can and do pull barrels off center. When you move that thread off center the barrel now is held back on the side that closes up and that pushes the muzzle in the opposite direction. I have spent the time with test indicators and V-blocks and loose thread fits never have satisfied my tolerences. I could have done something wrong. The plan is to get everything right but sometimes a theory kicks your butt.
Yes Sir !! I've run the mill on just about every aspect, of fitting things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Spent more hours on the bench then I should have. I have 7 nuts in a box
that I went thru to always find the one that is the tightest fit for a particular
barrel. I also have 3 PTA actions that I pick to have the tightest barrel thread.
A sloppy action fit, combined with a sloppy nut equals target disasters. Other
then my fire forming barrels, all my PTA barrels are shouldered.
You do realize that the distance from the center of the barrel to the square hole in the wrench for the 1/2" square drive will multiply the torque applied. By how much I don't know. I don't use a torque wrench, just tighten them by feel.
Not when the the barrel nut wrench is positioned 90 degrees on the Torque wrench. Torquing in this fashion yields precise values. This is known by those familiar with Savage & other Barrel Nut setups. (AR15,AR10)Quote:
Originally Posted by 25-204
Old thread, but comes up often.
Torque with wrench IN LINE has a multiplier.
Arithmetic, not Algebra.
I have an 750 in lb wrench that I calibrated (just me being anal) @ 600 inch pounds (50 ft lbs) with dead weight.
Distance from drive center to center of grip area is 11 inches.
My barrel nut wrench is 1.5" from center of nut to center of 1/2" drive socket.
The multiplier for this set up is total length (11" + 1.5") divided by torque wrench length (11").
When wrench clicks @ 50 ft lbs, the multiplier makes the applied torque 13.6% higher, or 57 ft lbs.
Many want to hold everything with the torque wrench 90 degrees to the barrel nut wrench which is fine.
I just find it easier to hold with the two in line.
I am more confused after reading this than before:p