If you had a 6.5 Creedmoor and were to buy another rifle, would you be more interested in a 6.5 PRC or a 6 MM Creedmoor?
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If you had a 6.5 Creedmoor and were to buy another rifle, would you be more interested in a 6.5 PRC or a 6 MM Creedmoor?
6mm Creedmoor
I 2nd the 6mm. Never had any Creedmoor variant, but I am a sucker for the 6mm bore.
6mm… I’ve no interest in any 264 Magnum! But I would’t do the 6mm CM either. For me, .264” belongs in the 6.5-06, 6.5-284, 6.5 Swede, 260 Rem & 6.5 CM. 6mm pills, I’m looking at the x47 Lapua or even more likely, the Dasher. Anything magnum, I’m doing heavy 7mm or a 30Cal.
Still, if you are set on those two, my vote is for the 6mm CM.
Really hard to say when you give no info on what you are going to be doing with it--
6.5 PRC has obvious ballistic advantages over the 6.5 CM.... but at a cost- so what's the need? If it's just a want to try something different then I'd go with a 6mm (but with a BR or BR variant).
I had a 6CM that I was pushing hard- and I didn't make it to 800 rounds before the barrel was done- might have been less than that but it's been a few years. 6mm's seem to dominate prs stuff- PRC is pretty popular with hunters (and some target shooters) and when going for small groups at longer range most people use a 7mm or 30 cal.
I'm just thinking about trying something different, but didn't want to go too big because I can't handle a heavy recoil due to a bum right shoulder. I've had three surgeries on it, between a football injury in 1977 and a motorcycle accident in 2020. The last one left me with a 5" long titanium plate, and 8 screws. I've still got a torn labrum and partially torn tendon and eschewed further repair because the doc said it was about the most painful procedure an orthopedist could inflict on a patient and at my age probably not very effective and unnecessary.
I really like the idea of the 6mm CM with its light recoil and flatter trajectory, but the short barrel life puts me off a little. On the other hand, the the 6.5 PRC also shoots a little flatter, but with the heavier bullet and larger powder charge I could reach a little longer range than I can with the 6.5 CM. I'm ringing steel with it at 950 yards, but I wonder how what the maximum range is in my hands. No hunting, no competition, just tinkering with loads, groups at 100 yards and long range plinking.
II had a friend recommend the Dasher and I need to do some research on that cartridge.
Good recommendation.Quote:
had a friend recommend the Dasher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest T
People are effectively taking 6.5 Creedmoor & it’s counterpart, 260 Rem out to 1 Mile! I’ve even heard of some using them for 2000yds. The 6.5CM will go as far as is difficult for ANY cartridge. Know what I mean? ELR shooting is a whole new ball game. Watch videos on guys people shooting 1 mile or more. Even those with heavy magnums, 7mm or 30 RUM, 338 Lapua, and even the specialty magnums for target shooting, even they don’t just hit the target on after another every shot. You still see LOTS of misses at those ranges. I’m not talking about what people say on forums. Go watch one of hundreds of videos to get the truth.
You’re not helping me buy a new gun! I’ve watched many videos and was struck by how difficult it is to hit a target at 1 mile. I can see that manifest itself in my shooting. I rarely miss out to 750 yards and only hit 3 out of 4 at 950. I’m assuming things trend downward the longer you shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
is the 6mm dasher only available in a custom gun?
I went through a lot of this when choosing my current barrel. No competition, no hunting. Velocity vs range vs barrel life vs recoil.
The range I shoot at is 1000yd. I had a .223 that was more than capable out to 600yd. I wanted to be able to go to 1000 on a more regular basis. My .308 was ok with 155 or 175gn bullets, but, recoil had to be 'managed'.
I settled on the 6mm due to recoil. Then velocity vs barrel life. I considered 6BR 'minimum' and .243 'maximum'. What vel is minimum? Well, several 1000yd BR folks have used the 6BR, including a record at one time. So, what to buy? I narrowed it to 6BR, 6BRA, 6x47 and 6CM. I went with the 6BR mainly due to barrel life and factory brass.
So far I have been more than happy with it. Only one group at 1000yd, 9", Hornady 103ELDX bullets. And those were not max load, only 2800fps. Not great, not bad, especially for the first try.
6x47L
I like the 6x47. It’s actually the largest of the cases I like seeing 6mm in. (I don’t count 243 Win. because it’s an ICON!) I’m not a fan of 6 & 6.5mm in giant magnum cases, just as I’m not fond of Huge, Heavy bullets in teeny-tiny cases. The 6mmBR is ok.., but I’d much rather the 6BRA. The BR has too much wasted material. Having it’s monstrosity of a looong neck for those who believe the myth of the long neck, LOL!
In the end, the 6 Dasher is about perfect.
For the last 5 years or so, the 6mmBRA has out performed the 6mmDasher.
The 243Win is a known barrel burner. All the other 6mm’s down to the 6mmXC get slightly better barrel life.
I think the sweet spot for 6mm to 1,000yds is the 6mmGT. If Lapua made brass for it and it was available, I would have already built one.
The powder volume is right between the 6Dasher and the 6XC. And, the 6GT has an ample neck. Thing is, some guys are doing well with
it, but it hasn’t been around long enough to catch on yet.
I don’t have a warm feeling about the future of shooting right now. Lapua has announced that we won’t be able to get brass like we have in the past. Primers and powder have loosened up, but I still can’t get My favorite powder right now, and don’t know if it will ever happen again. One of My match barrels has just deteriorated to 1/2MOA with 2,300 rounds on it. I’m real hesitant to invest in a replacement right now.
Sell the barrel on the 6.5 CM. Buy a 6MM CM barrel from a top manufacturer. Buy a 7 PRC barrel and a custom action and Stock. Have many years of happiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whynot
Im sorry Ernest. I missed your response here. To be honest, I’m speaking from a reloader perspective. And also someone who simply enjoys messing around with & testing things. Let me ask, do you reload? Or: use factory ammo? Or: both perhaps. I ask because really, if you rely at all on factory ammunition, then 6Creedmoor is your answer. Try this test:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest T
Go to MidwayUSAw. Type in “6mm Dasher”, “6mm BR” Then type in 6mm Creedmoor. It’s eye opening. There are also several factory loads for the PRC as well (not as many though), but since you already have a 6.5mm… eh!
In the end, just go with your gut. Really… don’t listen to anyone here or anywhere else on something like this. You will be the one paying for it & enjoying it. And you know what you want more.
I'll refrain from suggesting my three favorite 6mm's thus far LOL. Years back when I was here daily I got to reading too many of scope-eye's posts of the necked down RUM cases and the like shooting small bore boolits and I caught the itch which led me to my 243AI and then to my 6-06, and then to my 6mm-WSM. Yeah I know that they are barrel killers and guzzle powder but ehhh it's fun. With the exception of the 243AI they have not been high volume shooters for me to worry, and 100-105gr boolits at 4K fps are fun. Not practical, but fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
I don't use factory ammo for any bolt rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
I'm not at the point where I know what I want yet. The 6.5 PRC is certainly the turn-key approach. Buy the rifle, scope, dies and brass and I'm good to go. Same for the 6mm CM, but there is that niggling barrel issue. I've shot 400 rounds of 6.5 CM since July so a barrel that lasts 1000 rounds is problematic for me. The Dasher is intriguing, but I don't have the skills to build a rifle and don't see myself going the custom rifle route due to cost. Making my own brass has some appeal though. I'm still pondering.
I wouldn’t worry about what you’re hearing man. If this just about you worrying about your 6.5CM, DON’T! Don’t chase crazy velocity and the 6.5 Creedmooor will last a whole lot more than 1000rds..
+1Quote:
Don’t chase crazy velocity and the 6.5 Creedmooor will last a whole lot more than 1000rds.
Depends on your use.
I have both. Chose 6mm Creed over the 6.5 Creed because it's faster, flatter with a bit less recoil. Take your time at the range in between shots. It will take deer, pronghorns, and yotes. Very similar recoil to .243 Win., and a bit less than 25-06 but with similar ballistics.
Wanted something to hit harder and the 6.5 PRC does. Anything you can kill with a 270 Win you can also with the 6.5 PRC. Recoil is about the same as 6.5-284.
They are both awesome cartridges, it just comes down to what you're needing it for. The 6.5 PRC will take heavier game than the feeble 6.5 Creed.
While the 6.5 Creed is a decent round I have no use for it.
My post was poorly worded. I’m worried about barrel life in the 6mm CM, not the 6.5 CM. I used the number of shots out of the 6.5 CM as a reference point. Given the same use, I’d shoot out the barrel of the 6 mm CM in a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Which is why I ended up with a 6BR.
Yes, I agree. Just nature of the beast. You push a 6mm projectile to 3400-4000fps, and it’s going to burn barrels up faster. It’s just physics. Doesn’t matter if it’s 22, 6mm, 6.5, 7mm, 30cal or larger! Push any projectile that fast, and a barrel burning they gonna be! Likewise, the slower they travel, the more rounds can be expected through the bore before accuracy decline.
Remember it’s all relative. Driving X-bullet diameter @ y-velocity takes z-amount of powder. The more powder requires a larger case. It’s purely a velocity game. So, it’s simply deciding what you want.
I view barrels as a consumable like brass, they only last so long then get replaced, if we are looking at a 6mm that would last a few rounds and can reach a thousand yards I would look hard at the 6MMBRA. I like most of the 6mm rounds and most of the 6.5 as well. I might not be the best guy to ask though as I just ordered a 6.5 PRC this week :smile-new:
Still going back and forth. One day its the PRC, the next the Creedmoor, and then the Dasher. The fact is, it probably doesn't make any difference as I'll probably buy one, then later another. The current 6.5 CM is more than adequate out to 1200 yards, and that's the max distance at a range I can wake up and decide to go shooting at without a couple days of planning.
Here is the way i look at it. Unless you are going to go with something with less recoil for a reason, the performance difference with any of the 6mm rounds isn't really a significant difference. to me the 6mm rounds really comes down to recoil management and not performance advantage.
I have a 6.5 PRC, and just got a 28" barrel for a better mile shooting rifle. I made the choice to invest my money into a 6.5 PRC, my brother invested in a 7mm WSM with a 30" long barrel for the same purpose. It really is a tough choice between the 7mm WSM and the 6.5 PRC with (IMO) the advantage in performance to the 7mm WSM with a decent recoil penalty.
I would keep the 6.5 Creedmoor and get a 7mm PRC or 6.5 PRC for the longer range shots. I like to shoot both my 6.5 PRC and 6.5 Creedmoor and love having both. there is a definite advantage to the PRC. i am at 2840 FPS with my 6.5 Creedmoor with a 26" barrel and 140 ELD-M. with my 26" 6.5 PRC i am at 3050 with 147 ELD-M and 145 Match Burners. That is a pretty significant performance gain from the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I am hoping for 3150 with the 145 match burners or 3100 with 153 A Tips with a longer barrel, better brass, and trying out a few different powders. That should be the ticket for me.
To the OP...
You said you don't hunt and don't shoot competitively, so I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion by enlightening you to another option: a fast twist .224 caliber that soo many dismiss or overlook due to ignorance. A good fast twist .224 caliber shooting sleek high B.C. bullets will do anything a 6mm can, and often times do it better. Obviously I'm not talking about a .223 Rem based cartridge here, but something akin to the .22-250 Ackley Improved, .22 Creedmoor (basically identical to the 22-250 AI in terms of capacity and efficiency), a shortened 22-284 Win. wildcat, the 22 BR, etc. Basically something with sufficient case capacity to push those 80-90gr pills to 3200fps or better.
Just as a personal example, I've been shooting the 22-250 AI with a 26" 1-8 twist barrel since 2004. With a stout charge of H4350 propelling an 85.5gr Nosler RDF. bullet to 3,250fps @ muzzle. With a 200 yard zero I only need to dial in 6.4 mil of elevation, and while the 22 caliber bullets will be affected a bit more by wind, given the aforementioned setup with a 10mph crosswind it's still only 2.0 mils of windage. Comparing that to the 6mm Creedmoor pushing a Nosler 105gr RDF at 3050fps with the same 200yd zero, you would be looking at 6.8 mil elevation and 1.9 mil windage.
So the 22cal has a slight advantage in drop and the 6mm has a slight advantage in wind, but it's basically a wash. Both cartridges in this example use very similar charge weights of the same powders so that's pretty much a wash as well. Where the 22cal has a bit of advantage is in recoil and cost. Granted the difference in recoil isn't substantial, but it's there. On the cost side, 22cal bullets are notably cheaper than the 6mm bullets - and MUCH easier to find since everyone and their brother is currently on the 6 and 6.5mm bandwagons.
While these faster 22-caliber cartridges are often labelled as barrel burners, I've been shooting the same Douglas barrel for 18 years now and have run just over 2000 rounds through it to date. Last time I had it out and shot a group at 200, it measure just a hair over 1/2 inch, or 1/4 MOA. Don't have a pic of that specific group, but I'll include one of a similar group shot in 2018 with said rifle with 80gr Nosler CC's.
Attachment 8811
Yes I'm probably overdue for a new barrel as the bore looks like alligator skin for the first 4-5 inches at this point, but the dang thing still shoots!!
+1Quote:
So the 22cal has a slight advantage in drop and the 6mm has a slight advantage in wind, but it's basically a wash.
I've decided to go with the 6 mm Creedmoor. In all reality, I'll probably end up with both a year or two down the road, but the smaller caliber interests me more right now. At first, I was thinking of the Savage 110 Tactical Desert, but I've since decided to splurge a little for this gun. I've narrowed it down to a Bergara Premier Competition, Christensen MPR Competition and a Masterpiece Arms BA PMR Pro Rifle II. They're essentially the same gun, for the same price, just different flavors.
So…. 3 cartridges that all pretty much do the same thing? LOL! J/KQuote:
Originally Posted by want2ride
Seriously though, I’m so glad I don’t deal with this any longer. At one time in my younger life, I had a plethora of different calibers… I knew I wasn’t a collector & learned early on, I couldn’t afford to feed them all. I now have only a few different calibers. And 260Rem is my only long range caliber. It’s amusing though, every few years listening to people talk about the “best performing” long distance cartridges; which typically coincide with the newer cartridges released of that era.
Hey… what about the 6.8 Western? Or 277 Fury? LOL! Ooo-oo.. I know! I’m actually going to be releasing a brand new… never before done cartridge! It will use any .284” bullets, have a 28.2 degree shoulder, a neck being a little longer than standard neck, but not as long as long neck, that I will call the MID-Length Neck! And…. it will be a short magnum case to fit a Short Action. Oh, but.. it will actually perform better in a long action so the bullet can be loaded to a very long COAL like it’s supposed to. Of course, my new shoulder angle will perform MUCH better than a 30 degree shoulder. And I’m basing that entirely on nothing except my banter that forum members will repeat over & over again until it becomes fact! I will name this one the 6.98mm Gotchya! :behindsofa:
You are going to love the round. It's an easy shooting round, very enjoyable. I like it so well I had to have two rifles chambered for it, one with a 22" bbl for hunting and range, the other is a 26" for range and LR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest T
Nothing wrong with the 110 Tactical Desert except maybe its stock, a MDT chassis will fix that.
Let us know which rifle you finally decide on.
The PRS guys that ring steel at distance started with a Dasher because of it's accuracy, speed andQuote:
Originally Posted by Ernest T
light recoil. It a good round. If you need a bit more, the 6gt is now the favored cartridge in that
game. Nothing wrong with the 6 Creed, but I would do Tubb's 6xc first just to tell Hornady to kiss
my ass.....
roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by fuj'
I was out at the club on Tuesday and a guy had a Masterpiece Arms in 6.5 CM. That was a beautiful gun with a very heavy barrel. The action was butter smooth and it was shooting pretty good groups. He said he's had it about 8 months and put 200 rounds through it so far. It's enticing to forget the Bergara and order the Masterpiece Arms -- they have a 10-12 week lead time right now.
If I were to spend that kind of money I'd go for something like a bighorn or bat action, krieger/bartlein barrel, and chassis/stock of choice.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
Id just keep my Savage Action and put a bunch of high end components on it…. OH, wait a minute! I already DID THAT!:boxing:
Then you would spending a bit more than $2500 for a complete gun wouldn't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
I looked at that option and after buying a savage rifle, putting a different trigger, stock and bolt on it, I'd have an expensive Savage Rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Maybe $3000. At that point you are looking for the best. I'd not settle for anything less than one of the really good barrel makers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest T
If you don't want the best, then a simple Savage or Rem action, Krieger barrel and Boyd's stock (or less expensive chassis) will get you a bit further than most of the other ~$2000 guns.
Keep in mind that if you are not capable of shooting in the 1's or 2's then spending that kind of money is counter productive. I am not that capable so I stick with the less expensive options.
Well, life happens and plans change. I have a pretty extensive antique tool collection, mostly Stanley tools from the late 1800s to early 1900s. I was going to give them to my kids now, instead of them having to sort it out when I'm gone, and none of them expressed any interest in them. Then I tried to donate them to our local county museum and they also said no thanks So off to E-bay they go. I'm keeping about 20 of them which I still use regularly. The first week, I sold 18 of approximately 200 and already have enough to buy the Savage Desert 110 Tactical in 6 mm. I figure I'll make enough next week to buy the Arken EP 5 for it. I still want a Bergara Premier Competition or Masterpiece arms so maybe I'll look at them in 6.5 PRC.
Yes, we sometimes hold onto things from the past that we believe are so incredibly valuable. And perhaps they are to a small number of people. Unfortunately that puts these items into a niche market. Which are very difficult to negotiate. A component is only worth what a person is willing to pay for it. To the rest of us, many items are worthless.
To a non-collector, a possession is worth only its use. I’ve had this debate with many, as I’m not a collector. Modern components are simply better than those from yester-year. Like many other tales of folklore, the opposite has been preached. But the very truth is, our manufacturing abilities today far exceed those of the past; and I’m not just speaking of quantity, but also quality. Steel, Aluminum, Composites, Ceramics are all made better today. These materials manufactured today are cleaner, stronger & far better wearing and corrosion prohibitive. That once again, old saying “they don’t make them like they used to!”, which may have had some merit during the 80’s & 90’s, is no longer a true statement.
I do wish you best of luck in your selling my friend. As I said, niche markets, which will always be part of our society.
That only applies if the new mfg products use all that modern stuff. Most do not. Electric tools have a lot of plastic these days. Stamped metal or cheap castings are also common.
I have a brace and bit set and a hand drill that was my grandfather's, close to 100yrs old. They still sharpen to a good edge and work as well as when new. In my life I have gone through 6 or 7 electric drills. Several of those the metal gears gave out (MIM, not high tech). Others the plastic wore out enough to let the (cheap) bearings float. Most of those were not the cheap variety of tool. You have to spend a small fortune to get good lifetime quality tools these days.
I will say that the new steels/alloys used for the cutting tips are better, but, that's the only place they are used.
Forgot. Dave, you are a great example of old school. You make things without a multi-thousand dollar CNC setup. These old tools are the same thing. Yes, a $10,000 surface planer and sander does work faster, but, who can afford such equipment. And then there is the reason I use them. I like the feel.