Got my Heavy Barrel .223 in Major Plaster Target Stock Put Together This Weekend any recommendations on cleaning during target sessions ? intervals etc. thanks.
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Got my Heavy Barrel .223 in Major Plaster Target Stock Put Together This Weekend any recommendations on cleaning during target sessions ? intervals etc. thanks.
Run wet patches until it is clean. Run dry patches through until it is dry before you start. When you are done, run wet patches until the barrel is clean. Run one patch through to get most of the oil out. Run dry patches till it is dry before you shoot next time.
Nothing special. Many people have their own “special” criteria when breaking in a new barrel or target shooting. I never have. Most barrels now are hand lapped. I don’t believe in any routine, and I have background in metallurgical study that backs up my thoughts. I shoot my firearms, take them home & clean after each outing. That’s it. All that “shoot 5rds & clean...shoot 10rds & clean...” That’s all superstition & shooter’s creed! But to many, that stuff, although having no evidence beyond anecdotal, is just part of their dance.
What Robin just pointed out is all that’s needed.
Other sights recommend 200-300 shots even up to 600 before cleaning a matter of preference i guess
Me too.Quote:
I shoot my firearms, take them home & clean after each outing. That’s it
Differences in bore finish dictate this more than any other reason. An older Shaw barrel needed copper cleaning after 20 rounds. A lapped Krieger I didn't do anything but patch after 300 rds. It sits at 446 currently with only a Wipe-Out cleaning after 200 rds +or-. Hardly any copper. Mostly carbon.
Does Savage produce their own barrels, or does someone like Shaws do that for them?
If I had a hand lapped barrel I would agree with you. But, my two Savages are about as far from hand lapped as you can get. Even after more than 3000 rounds you can see the copper layered in the barrel after each shooting. After a certain number of rounds, depending on which barrel it is, the copper has to be cleaned out. The stainless .308 barrel likes a bare barrel or only a slight amount of copper. The .223 Axis will go 300 or more rounds before I have to clean the copper out of it.
I wish I had 'broken' in both of them as it took several hundred rounds to settle down in accuracy. The .308 even took a bit of bore paste to become a more consistent shooter. Now days it is a bit better but it still needs copper cleaned out after every 100 rounds or so.
As for powder fouling, I do the same as the rest. Wet patch, let soak for a while, wet patch, soak, etc until it comes out clean. I let the rifle sit for a few minutes in between patches. How often? With the .308 it is every session. Did I mention it likes to be clean? :) The .223 I have done some 'abusive' tests, seeing how long I can go between cleanings. After three or four shooting sessions (200-300rnds) the accuracy drops off. After cleaning it is back to 'normal'. These days I normally clean it after each day at the range.
If you have a premium barrel that has been lapped to perfection, then your cleaning chores will be much easier.
If you look at Kreiger's recommendations he says to 'listen to what the barrel tells you'. He also has some good advice about break in, ie, some barrels need it and some don't, depending on how many marks the chambering reamer left.
I am pretty green compared to most here but I followed the recommendations of Savage on my 223 Axis and it shot pretty well from the start and seems to be getting better. I think it can safely be called a 1/2" gun WITH THE RIGHT BULLETS and maybe better with a better operator. It does take a little time to do it but I would do it again.
Ya know Charlie, you are right. I apologize. I was of course talking about premium barrels, as in doing a Savage Rebarrel & my point of lapping was precisely what Robin mentioned. I should have specified that.
I still don’t believe in any “Cult Creeds” of special PRE-cleaning in the first 100,200,whatever-hundred rounds! But yes, the bore quality will have a direct impact on AMOUNT & RATE of cleaning. That I do agree with.
Kroil for copper been using it for years works great for that Kerosene for powder residue great combo will update on round count in between cleaning.
Ed's Red (not for copper)
Equal parts of:
Acetone (or MEK)
Mineral spirits (eg Stodard Solvent)
ATF
Kerosene
KG-12 works best on copper for me. Swab and then watch the copper start to disappear. There are some other non-ammonia copper solvents out there that work the same way. Stopped using Sweet's, Hoppes and the other ammonia based stuff a few years ago.
I just use Birchwood Casey 2in1, because it’s cheap.
Oh CRAP! Nevermind! We need to be careful with starting a tangent on Cleaners & lubricants. Next well have the guy coming talking about the the magical mix of half Mobil 1, half tranny fluid, HALF Chuck Norris piss & the rest in Moly powder. And how it’s the GREATEST-est cleaner, de-EVERYTHING-er solvent & super slick lube they have ever used-and they tried them all already..... only thing they’ve used since 1984 or whatever, ever since they read some in a book from the 70’s or something. :biggrin-new:
ROFLMAO
I 'found' CLP when the Army adopted it. Only thing that touched the carbon buildup in the 105mm tank gun bore evacuator chamber. I got it for 'free' until I left tanks. Then was shocked at how expensive it was. Started looking for alternatives that worked as well.
Yep, I am cheap about some things. :) When I 'found' Ed Harris' formula I figured I would try it and it works ok. Not the best, but, probably the best for the price :) Then there is CLR, yes, the bathroom cleaner. BUT...I would not use it on a carbon barrel as it might 'eat' it. And it smells horrible and I have to wear gloves to use it. The Ed Harris formula works almost as well for me. Besides, for about $20 I have over a gallon of bore cleaner/oil. The 'bonus' to Ed's formula is the acetone. I shoot a lot of cast bullets that are powder coated. That coating fouls the barrel a bit and makes cleaning a little more difficult. The acetone dissolves that stuff easily so the other ingredients can work on the powder fouling.
FWIW, I like using Hornady One Shot for the guts of my pistols. Works well to get the crud out and leaves a dry film which is nice out here in the desert. But, even more expensive than CLP.
Hey that's my mix. And I can tell ya forget the Mobil 1 Dude....Pennzoil is the way to go.Quote:
Next well have the guy coming talking about the the magical mix of half Mobil 1, half tranny fluid, HALF Chuck Norris piss & the rest in Moly powder.
Long time ago there was a guy in the Phoenix area who swore by STP as a way to make his bore more slippery.
One day he had left too much in the bore and had a kaboom moment. Luckily he was not injured, but, the bore split open in front of the chamber.
Sure! STP increased the fps so much the bullet was like a cutting torch. He shouda known.
One reality of life on gun forums, opinions on the "best" cleaner or cleaning method is like a certain part of everyone's anatomy, everyone has one. :nod:
Good Grief.
Yep run a couple Kroil patches through let it sit a bit even over night patch will come out super green that's copper. i usually clean and swab till clean then leave it on the bench a few evenings swabbing Kroil every time i come by or think about it you will be surprised.!
some people on these sights take great pride in misleading people please study advice carefully That said Try Kroil for copper you'll be amazed
amazing you try to help people and throw out an idea and all you get is a bunch of smart a.. crap. and stupid comments just hurts the sight. everybody knows more than the next guy. makes you feel real welcome.
OK so another thread that made me do research. ROFLMAO
Had to look at the Kroil SDS to see what chemicals in it were copper solvents. A combination of alcohols and ketone with some petroleum type stuff. I don't see how any of these would react with copper. But, there is a proprietary chemical that may be the key. Since it turns the copper blue it will be an ammonia or lye type of chemical.
I thought ammonia or lye based copper solvents were hazardous enough. Then I looked up the SDS of the KG-12 non-ammonia copper solvent. Cyanide. Pro-shot and Boretech use ethylene glycol monobutyl ether. Wipeout is a concoction of some pretty bad stuff as well, Toulene and heptane along with Stoddard and naptha.
I could go on with warnings, but, in my youth (and less frequently later in life) I always used a lot of solvents when cleaning car parts and such. Never used gloves. Never really used respirators either, used the solvents inside garages and such too. Am still here and kidneys/liver doing fine. :)
But, I think from now on I will use an exhaust fan and gloves. :)
Thanks for prompting my research!
Sorry Rifleman. I have not been following this thread closely. I certainly was not making fun and I have been known to use Kroil in the bore of a CS barrel for storage. So, I have a clear epoxy mixing cup, a 1961 penny and Kroil. Tomorrow evening we will get results. If none, we can wait a few days.
The truth is, some things you are not sure of will surprise you. Some people are full of it. You never know. This one I didn't know and chemicals can do some interesting things when talking materials. An unknown PH can play tricks on you. Wish me luck.
EDIT: I also put Wipe Out in another container with a penny. I may not post photo's but I will post results
Wipeout: While picking the penny out there was blue coloring all around the subject. In less than 10 minutes the tarnished penny was clean not bright like a new penny but like a chemical clean.
Kroil: No change. No green or blue coloring in the liquid.
More to come.
I woke to find
WipeOut: Liquid is a very dark blue. No transparency. The penny appears to be loosing copper from the surface. Subjective. I weighed it at 3.1 g so we will see tonight.
Kroil: From my perspective I believe the tarnish has diminished considerably. Copper has not been impacted by the Kroil. No discoloration noticed in the liquid.
So it would appear that Wipeout and no doubt others have an affect on copper.
But wouldnt the affect on steel barrels be the only real concern?
Ive always run dry patches thru after cleaning regardless of the bore cleaner i used.
Then a patch with kroil which is left in the barrel and a coating on other surfaces as well.
The only problem ive had is with a Jewell trigger being contaminated by the oil.
Storing the gun laying down instead of upright in a safe would probably solve that.
None of the other triggers have been affected.
Prior to using Wipeout, i was using BoreTec Eliminator for copper, and Slick 2000 for carbon.
It was reccomended by the old Precision Shooting magazine after a 2 year study of all then made cleaning products.
I still feel that was a good combination, but i was shown that a patch run thru after cleaning produced lots of blue when using Wipeout.
There is a concern about leaving some of these products in a barrel overnight.
Eric Cortina and others use CLR for powder fouling on stainless barrels. I tried it and it does work. He also said he filled a bore and let it soak overnight. I probably would not do that due to the caustic agents. Stainless is good stuff but I don't think I'd push my luck with that. I also would not use it on a CM barrel due to the caustic nature. And it will quickly remove bluing.
Ammonia is another one that really should not be left in a CM barrel for hours on end. Stainless might be ok. This is one of the reasons I went to the non-ammonia copper removers. Wipe, let sit for 30seconds, check barrel for copper, repeat. Usually takes less than 15 min to get a fouled barrel cleaned of copper.
I will have to try Wipeout as it does not seem to contain any caustics or acids. Don't see how it dissolves chemically reacts with copper, but, since it seems to will try it.
FWIW, KG-12 does not turn blue when it dissolves copper. Different reaction. To test the Kroil I'd find a copper fouled barrel and apply it. Watch to see of the copper goes away.
I just recently tried Kroil to see what it would do for my '91 Argentine Mauser's barrel. My go to cleaners are Bore Tech Cu+2 and C4 and didn't seem strong enough to get through 128yrs of fouling.
So I bought some Kroil and ran wet patches through until they were basically clean, then 4 wet patches, and let sit for 24hrs. Repeated this process 3 times. When I ran a dry patch through after 24hrs, the patch was BLACK, second was black, third was a light gray/black, 4th had some light gray/black streaking. After 3 round, first patch was black, second light gray/black streaking, third basically clean. I patched it dry and ran my Teslong down the bore. No carbon at all, clean to the steel, with copper shining right back at me.
I ran 3 or 4 patches wet with Cu+2 down the bore, let sit the requisite 15mins. The first patch down the bore afterward came out the darkest blue I've ever seen from a rifle barrel. I repeated the Cu+2 process once more, dry patched, then borescoped, no copper at all just clean old steel.
While the Kroil didn't remove copper fouling, it did loosen it, and I'll have a can of Kroil on my bench from now on.
Kroil I have used for at least 20 years and HAS turned every patch green or blue green definitely in that color spectrum i've put through many many rifles so do all the tests you like i sure your penny will eventually disappear completely > Maby your barrel had nothing but carbon no copper who knows i know what i have seen with my eyes and the articles i read about it many years ago so go ahead and use your water based ammonia products make sure you get it out of every nook and cranny ( promotes Rust ie water based.) Ill stick with Kerosene (what Hopps #9 is) and Kroil for copper fowling which my barrels are free of. thank you. O yea Chuck Norris doesn't sell his piss! O yea I oil my trigger on occasion don't you!
O and! Walt Berget used it for 1shot break in and cleaning procedure to prevent copper from fowling. Your penny melt yet!. good hunting mike.
Here’s what I know guys. I’ve been a custom Knifemaker for many years. Metal ETCHING(which is what the fear is from harsh chemicals), plays a big roll. And even before that, I studied metallurgical & alloying compositions. Even the HARSHEST solvent, with the highest concentration of ammonia does not react with Iron, Chromium or Molybdenum. Any adverse effects of PURE ammonia on steel is attributed to something called Stress Corrosion Cracking...which is the result of impurities & high temperature. It’s something else....NOT etching. The low % in solvents will not result in this. But of course, ANY ammonia is highly reactive to Copper.
If you want I can do a light etch on a piece of 4140 and leave it in ammonia for several days. The steel will be fine, and the light etching will be unaffected. Now, I would do this in plain vinegar, the it WILL etch the steel.
What started all this HOOPLA, was the early half of the 20th century, many, many people used STEEL brushes in the bore. Some people thought that very fine steel wool would certainly be safe....right? WRONG! Unfortunately, the stigma stuck, as people read the stories. “It MUST be the ammonia hurting the barrel!!” It’s not. Obviously it’s not good to leave any solvent in the bore, day after day. Just as it wouldn’t be good to leave mild SOAP WATER in the bore! But it’s the abrasion of cleaning itself which wears down the rifling. Just as the abrasion of shooting does.
Oh yeah.....I concur, Hoppes is delicious smelling!
always heard ammonia was water based that being said i have cleaned my muzzleloader with hot soapy water for 20 + years. and used bore butter by Thompson Center only its absolutely spotless perfect not a spot anywhere in the bore or on the blue. use what you choose never had a problem with how i roll. cheers.
Hot soapy water was also used back in the day when corrosive primers were being used in military ammo.
The end of the barrel would be placed in a container of the water and scrubbed with a brass brush on the rod.
But no doubt back then as is the case now, there were varying opinions on many things.
I have always felt the brushes caused more harm than the bullets, but obviously not all agree.
The only one needing to be happy with his own system of doing things however is the user.
Dave,
Thanks for that. I am a simple mechanical engineer, chemistry interests me but my dad was the chemist in the family.
I wonder if the stories about ammonia came from the carrier (sometimes water) that the ammonia based products seem to use. I could see someone leaving Sweet's in a barrel for a week, running patches through and then see rust pits.
And, yes, vinegar is an acid so will etch steels over time.
What components of Wipeout cause it to react with the copper? Toulene, heptane, Stoddard and naptha are listed in the SDS.
Ei EI EI O its off to work i go my method has years of proven results for me
I guess it would be Heptane. It’s listed as “Not recommended” on Brass. I know that Toluene is not corrosive to Brass. And the Stoddard & Naphtha are just types of Mineral Spirits, which are also safe on Brass. Only leaves the Heptane. But even it, I think is pretty mild.
Corrosive compounds to brass, rather the main element Copper, are Ammonias, Peroxides, and Sulfuric/Nitric acids actually will dissolve the copper. So I’m not too sure about the Wipeout. I’ve never used it so I don’t know how effective it actually is on copper fouling. Obviously, ANY cleaning solution will rid the bore of copper over time. They just differ is “wiping” the oxides away, vs dissolving it immediately.
Rifleman, I went in this really hopeful brother but after 12 plus hours the copper penny soaked in Kroil looks clean but it still has a patina. There is no green or blue coloration in the container with Kroil and a penny in it.
The container with the penny and Wipeout is bright copper color that appears like it is being attacked chemically or a low PH, not polished or smooth. The liquid is a very dark blue and is obviously having an impact on it.
What my test did not show was if the penetrating action helped separate the copper from the base metal. What it did show is that Kroil does not attack or dissolve copper in the time frame of late last night until approximately 1545 CDT. 12-14hrs(i don't remember when I dropped them in.) It shows that within minutes, Wipeout was attacking and displacing copper.
If you believe my test to be wrong I encourage anyone to duplicate it with at least using Aero-Kroil as part of the test.
Personal opinion. I continue to believe kroil is a top notch product. For copper removal I will use something else and Wipeout has proven to be able to do the job. Better than I thought it did.
Robinhood, where did you find a penny that was made of copper? I haven't seen one years!
Amen on the real copper penny! I am not beyond learning just read the details from WIPEOUT and think i will try it. although it is the exact same process and procedure ive used with Kroil. Kroil's info even states about aiding in removing copper fowling. good shooting .
Any penny dated 1982 and earlier is 95%+ Copper.
Charlie: I agree. That reaction with the Wipeout indicates an harsh Copper chemical reaction. And I absolutely trust Robin’s testing. It’s a head scratcher to me as I looked at the MSDS as well. The chemicals alone, on paper, don’t constitute THAT reaction. But can’t argue the results. But the same applies for Kroil results. Of course, like I was saying earlier, the Kroil will STILL clean the Copper fouling by simply WEARING it down with every patch/brush contact, through chemical abrasion.
simply not true i dont scrub my barrels with a brush i brush a few times then start the Kroil patch -dry patch process . let sit repeat . anyway nobody is going to agree on anything . and if you think Kroil or any one else lists all there proprietary ingredients i think your fooling yourself everyone would be stealing your formula . thanks for the sparring session didn't know i joined a boxing web sight. mike.