Are older barrels more prone to copper fouling?

I have been trying to figure out this old 1960 110 since I got it nearly two months ago. It appears to have been shot quite a bit, which is fine, but I'm trying to get a good idea of what I can milk out of it accuracy-wise. When I bought it, on close inspection of the muzzle end of the bore, it appeared to have quite a bit of copper fouling in the grooves. So I got out the CR-10 and went to work. It took me about an hour, but I got out nearly all the copper (that I could see with a pair of cheaters in good sunlight, looking into the muzzle). It seemed to shoot better after doing this.

However, within 20-30 rounds, there was an obvious amount of copper in the grooves once again. After another 20-30 rounds, it looked just like it did when I bought it. :( I can't say it's shot very well since those first 20-30 rounds after cleaning either.

Is it my imagination, or is this thing fouling that quickly?

I almost never clean my newer (less than 3 years old) Savage barrels. They are all stainless now, but I've owned plenty of blued (matte black) newer Savages in the past 5-6 years and never had this problem with those barrels either. But I have a few hundred rounds through both my newer stainless barrels, and I can't see really any amount of copper buildup in the grooves and they still shoot very, very well.

I suppose my next step is to clean the copper out of that old vintage barrel again, and see if the accuracy returns. If it does, I might just have to do what I see several old-timers doing, and that is to clean the barrel after every single range session. If that's the case, I'm probably not going to shoot that rifle very much, which would be a shame because it's a beautiful old rifle.

Is it really as clean as you think it is? I took a really old gun that was full of junk, plugged up the muzzle and filled it with Boretech overnight...lots of brown sludge came out.

I don't understand the point of your post. What does it have to do with the difference between what I see in the 1960 barrel, and what I see in my newer barrels?

I don't even clean my newer barrels and I don't see any copper in the grooves and they shoot well under an inch most days.

My point is that perhaps there is such a layering of carbon and copper in the barrel that you are not really getting it back to bare metal and it's fouling quickly. And I have never had an old Savage to look at its quality I see no reason it could not be as accurate as a modern one.

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Originally Posted by celltech

My point is that perhaps there is such a layering of carbon and copper in the barrel that you are not really getting it back to bare metal and it's fouling quickly. And I have never had an old Savage to look at its quality I see no reason it could not be as accurate as a modern one.

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I see. I hope there is no reason it can't be as accurate, unless it's completely shot-out (which I don't think is the case).

I don't have a bore scope and don't plan to get one. I followed the directions on the CR-10 exactly, and I would imagine that if it can remove all that copper, the carbon would be gone as well. From what I could see, in bright direct sunlight with magnified glasses, it was back to bare metal. The cleaning patches were coming out clean, with no blue at all on them.

I'll try it again and see how it shoots, and how quickly the copper builds up again.

It's just odd to me that it's so obvious (the copper) in this old barrel, but not in the newer barrels.

I'll try my best to get some before - after - after cleaning pics to share here when I get time.

Some barrels copper up more than others. Most of it has to do with the surface finish inside the barrel. A rough finish will grab more copper off the bullet than a smooth finish.

I have had "copper removing" solvents that would turn blue showing they are removing the copper, then stop turning blue. I would think, "great, now all the copper is gone". But then I would inspect with a bore camera and still see lots of copper in the barrel. So do not trush that just because they do not come out blue anymore, that all the copper is gone.

I have used many many copper solvents and the only one I have found to remove all the copper is KG-12. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1078144092
I had a barrel that would grab copper to the point it would build up so thick you could feel the cleaning patch hitting/catching the copper globs.
https://www.savageshooters.com/showt...and-new-barrel
What I ended up doing is plugging the bore with a foam ear plug at the muzzle, then point it muzzle down in a glass jar. Remove the bolt, then fill the barrel completely full of the KG-12. Let it set and soak for 30 min to a hour and then pull the ear plug letting it dump into the jar. (I actually collect and re use it a few times when doing this).
After soaking in that, all the copper will be gone. Clean it out with your favorite bore cleaner (I use hoppes)

Now that is is completely clean of copper, you need to work on the rough bore some. I like to use JB bore paste. That will help clean and polish/smooth out the inside of the bore. Then you can do a shoot one and clean procedure like you would be breaking in a new barrel. This will help smooth out the rough finish and get it shooting great and be easy to clean and not grab copper so bad.

I always thought I was cleaning a barrel thoroughly until I got a borescope. It really showed me how the carbon can build up and becomes really difficult to get off. And now that I use CLR to remove the carbon I can say without a doubt they are clean.

It is really simple, rough machined non lapped or pitted barrels copper up. Age in of itself is not the problem. CLR (Calcium Lime Rust) will clean your bore and leave it shiny.

Interesting how everyone seems to have their own magical solution.

I have some wipe-out on the way. I'll see what it can do.

CLR is rapidly becoming a go to for competitive shooters.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

CLR is rapidly becoming a go to for competitive shooters.

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Good to know. I have a Shaw barrel in 308 that's been a "copper mine" from day one. I have close to 250 rounds through the barrel and after a 15 round range cession, I can see heavy copper streaks in the grooves. I'm using Wipe Out and then bore paste to get the bore clean after every range cession.

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Originally Posted by Newtosavage

I have been trying to figure out this old 1960 110 since I got it nearly two months ago. It appears to have been shot quite a bit, which is fine, but I'm trying to get a good idea of what I can milk out of it accuracy-wise. When I bought it, on close inspection of the muzzle end of the bore, it appeared to have quite a bit of copper fouling in the grooves. So I got out the CR-10 and went to work. It took me about an hour, but I got out nearly all the copper (that I could see with a pair of cheaters in good sunlight, looking into the muzzle). It seemed to shoot better after doing this.

However, within 20-30 rounds, there was an obvious amount of copper in the grooves once again. After another 20-30 rounds, it looked just like it did when I bought it. :( I can't say it's shot very well since those first 20-30 rounds after cleaning either.

Is it my imagination, or is this thing fouling that quickly?

I almost never clean my newer (less than 3 years old) Savage barrels. They are all stainless now, but I've owned plenty of blued (matte black) newer Savages in the past 5-6 years and never had this problem with those barrels either. But I have a few hundred rounds through both my newer stainless barrels, and I can't see really any amount of copper buildup in the grooves and they still shoot very, very well.

I suppose my next step is to clean the copper out of that old vintage barrel again, and see if the accuracy returns. If it does, I might just have to do what I see several old-timers doing, and that is to clean the barrel after every single range session. If that's the case, I'm probably not going to shoot that rifle very much, which would be a shame because it's a beautiful old rifle.

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What is the caliber?

Just asking because I have ran into weird things.

Twist rate on barrel and or just barrel.
Different shaped bullets and weights preform different. Have you buy chance tried it fouled up and tried different loading? Or bullets?
What is the normal accuracy of the rifle?

Some older rifles with old rifling shoot lighter flat based bullets better.
Or the big round nose bullets.


Your test will prove a clean barrel will shoot then it falls off fast from the fowling.

I’m not sure how I feel about that.

If I can’t get 200 MOA shots out of a gun I’m not keeping it or the barrel. My barrels fouled shoot better. I don’t shoot a lot, so they rarely get anything other than a dry patch after a range.

I’ve had to put a brass brush on a rod in the drill and scrub it.

Let us know. Cheers
Interesting.


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I can understand the frustration. I only have the two Savages, Axis HB in .223 and 12BVSS in .308 (heavy stainless). Both are newer mfg. Both have good streaks of copper in them after 20 rounds. BUT.....

The .223 doesn't seem to mind. It shoots 1/2MOA, even when the barrel is too hot to touch. I can let it go without cleaning for 200 rounds before groups start to open up. Then it becomes a 1MOA rifle. I also use KG12 and it only takes 1/2 hour or so to clean out the barrel and the copper. 10 rounds to 'settle' and it's back to 1/2MOA.

The .308 is not so forgiving. It likes to be clean and cool and it will shot 1/2MOA. But, after 30-40 rounds it will open up the groups. And if it gets hot (like being left out in the sun here in the desert SW) groups will open up. The nice thing is it shoots powder coated cast bullets fairly well (~1MOA). Now for the weird part. If I shoot cast after jacketed the cast bullets (with gas checks) will remove a lot of the copper!

The .308 has also been 'treated' to some Iosso bore paste to try to smooth it up a bit. The muzzle still shows tooling marks after several thousand rounds (about 1500 jacketed, 2000 cast). I've thought about lapping the barrel. Figure if I screwed it up it would just give me an excuse to buy a new barrel :)

It's an '06. I am a pretty experienced handloader and I've tried everything from 150's to 180's in conventional cup and core and all copper bullets. Tried 3 different powders now. The only time I can say it shot "decent" (1.5" or so) was right after I cleaned the bore with CR-10. I started seeing copper streaks in the bore really soon after cleaning it. Like within 5-10 shots.

I'll use the wipe out, start with a clean bore, and see what I get. I'll be sure to report back.

Just a small warning for those contemplating CLR. It does eat carbon like crazy and i have cleaned many barrels with it.
On the other hand the "R" in the name is for rust. Gun blueing is controlled "rust". CLR loves blueing as it does carbon.
Be real careful with it around "blued" surfaces. Rinse it well with water, kroil, alcohol or whatever because it will get you if you are not careful (got me several times when i thought i was careful).
That's all, just a reminder.

While they can create a love/hate relationship when it comes to cleaning, an inexpensive Teslong ($49) is tough to beat for a clear, crisp visual images approaching that of the Hawkeye. I bought one not because I was concerned with my cleaning process more so I could see what a barrel looked like when "clean" and shooting well. It's just a tool like my cleaning rod, solvent, etc.

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Originally Posted by mnbogboy2

Just a small warning for those contemplating CLR. It does eat carbon like crazy and i have cleaned many barrels with it.
On the other hand the "R" in the name is for rust. Gun blueing is controlled "rust". CLR loves blueing as it does carbon.
Be real careful with it around "blued" surfaces. Rinse it well with water, kroil, alcohol or whatever because it will get you if you are not careful (got me several times when i thought i was careful).
That's all, just a reminder.

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Good thing to know about the bluing. Is it necessary to do something to the bore after using the CLR? I am wondering if it can do any damage to the bore if something isn't done to completely remove the chemical or neutralize it.

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Originally Posted by Mr.Snerdly

Good thing to know about the bluing. Is it necessary to do something to the bore after using the CLR? I am wondering if it can do any damage to the bore if something isn't done to completely remove the chemical or neutralize it.

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I run a patch of 99.9% alcohol once done with the CLR to clear it out. While the majority of my barrels are stainless I had a piece of cut off 12FV barrel lying around that I stuck in CLR. It turned the blueing to muck but has not appeared to harm the metal.

CLR in a chrome steel barrel will have to be thoroughly removed, as will many other bore cleaners after cleaning to avoid rusting. I suspect that if you put a good borescope camera down the tube that you'd find a lot of rust pitting. An old rifle that's been shot "quite a bit" as you say, would otherwise be pretty smooth in the bore, my 1898 Krag is almost like new. And while not accounting for some fire cracking, would not copper up near as much as a newly manufactured Savage for instance, which is known for having railroad track like rifling that loves to accumulate copper.

Rust pitting is not necessarily the end of barrel accuracy, as long as you aren't shooting in matches, but if it were mine I'd be looking for answers. Rust pitting inside the barrel can be removed completely with electrolysis, which won't hurt the blueing. All you need is a battery charger, a steel rod that will fit loosely inside the barrel so that it doesn't touch the barrel ( use tape, o-rings, etc to keep it from touching) and some Arm and Hammer wash soda from Wally World.

My old 110 is one year newer than my pre-64 Winchester 30-30 (made in '59). That rifle has been shot A LOT. But it still shoots great (most accurate Win 94 I've ever seen) and doesn't copper foul any faster than any of the newest barrels I have. This old 110 is the first rifle I think I've owned where I actually noticed the copper straight away. It was pretty obvious. Can't say I've ever really noticed it with the naked eye in any other rifle I've owned.

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Originally Posted by mnbogboy2

Just a small warning for those contemplating CLR. It does eat carbon like crazy and i have cleaned many barrels with it.
On the other hand the "R" in the name is for rust. Gun blueing is controlled "rust". CLR loves blueing as it does carbon.
Be real careful with it around "blued" surfaces. Rinse it well with water, kroil, alcohol or whatever because it will get you if you are not careful (got me several times when i thought i was careful).
That's all, just a reminder.

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Thanks MNbogboy. I should have mentioned that.

It also has a mild acid in it so it does need something to neutralize it.

Here's a pic of rust pitting in the bore of my 1957 110...

https://i.ibb.co/dgWjTqt/3006pitting.jpg

It hasn't been shot much over its lifetime and very little the past 25yrs it has been in my possession. It has been in my family since 1967 or early 1968.

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Originally Posted by Texas10

Rust pitting is not necessarily the end of barrel accuracy, as long as you aren't shooting in matches, but if it were mine I'd be looking for answers. Rust pitting inside the barrel can be removed completely with electrolysis, which won't hurt the blueing. All you need is a battery charger, a steel rod that will fit loosely inside the barrel so that it doesn't touch the barrel ( use tape, o-rings, etc to keep it from touching) and some Arm and Hammer wash soda from Wally World.

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Just to be clear, I would only use this in a stainless barrel for the removal of carbon and copper. It is a viable cheap low odor option for cleaning a rifle barrel. My CLR suggestion was not for the removal of rust. The nature of my hobby puts SS tubes on all of my equipment. Anything that uses CS for the tube shoots about 10 rds a year maximum and if it needs excessive cleaning from that it is removed and replaced. The mistake was where my mind led me to believe that most people see the world as I do. This has never been the truth and reading many responses shows evidence of the oppositte. :)

Chive on.

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Originally Posted by GaCop

Good to know. I have a Shaw barrel in 308 that's been a "copper mine" from day one. I have close to 250 rounds through the barrel and after a 15 round range cession, I can see heavy copper streaks in the grooves. I'm using Wipe Out and then bore paste to get the bore clean after every range cession.

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Shaw's are all accurate albeit copper mines.

Lots of good posts on this thread with great info.
Wish we had our "LIKE" button back because all these posts would have earned them from me.

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Originally Posted by PhilC

While they can create a love/hate relationship when it comes to cleaning, an inexpensive Teslong ($49) is tough to beat for a clear, crisp visual images approaching that of the Hawkeye. I bought one not because I was concerned with my cleaning process more so I could see what a barrel looked like when "clean" and shooting well. It's just a tool like my cleaning rod, solvent, etc.

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I bought the same teslong bore scope and love it. Well worth the money in my opinion. That is how I found the issue I was having with that one barrel I had (that I linked to above). Without the bore scope, I would have not been able to find out what was going on in that barrel.

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Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns

I bought the same teslong bore scope and love it. Well worth the money in my opinion. That is how I found the issue I was having with that one barrel I had (that I linked to above). Without the bore scope, I would have not been able to find out what was going on in that barrel.

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They are. What I didn't know at the time, but learned not long after, is loosening the lock collar behind the mirror allows user focus control. Then I found a separate mirror pack ($20) with additional caliber specific mirrors for ultra clear pics. :thumb:

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Shaw's are all accurate albeit copper mines.

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AMEN to that!