How come I can't close thread?
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How come I can't close thread?
I had a similar experience with my .223 Axis. However, I am not sure if it was the barrel or the receiver scope holes off. I suspect barrel for me as I think it was also shooting very low. I was too dumb to send it back. I put Burris Signature Zee rings on them and had to use the most extreme adjustments with the inserts. It shoots great though.
I really don't have an answer for you, other than maybe doing something like I did. I am assuming, there is no way to get your money back.
Sounds like the scope base/ring mounting holes on the barrel itself are messed up/out of alignment in some way.
How loose was the barrel in the receiver threads when you installed it? Do you have a 3 wire setup to measure the pitch diameter? Is the barrel obviously off center of the receiver? Had an aftermarket barrel one time that was cut too small and while it would thread, it became canted off to one direction when the nut was tightened down.
Don't have a 3 wire setup and the barrel does not appear to be off center.
I'm beginning to think this is the issue.Quote:
Had an aftermarket barrel one time that was cut too small and while it would thread, it became canted off to one direction when the nut was tightened down.
Really a bummer when our plans are foiled.
Agreeing with celltech, loose threads will definitely "steer" a barrel off center. One easy check is to compare movement of both barrels with the barrelnut loose. With the reciever fixed measure the amount of side to side movement at the muzzle.
Obvious loose threads will be evident.
I did have one barrel with enough internal curvature that after cutting & crowning it would not zero. I indexed the curvature at 12:00 and ran the reamer in enough to re-headspace and then actually installed a scope with more internal adjustment. Just made zero but was fairly accurate and had the benefit of a 30moa rail with the windage at mechanical zero.
The Burris signature rings will most likely get you there also.
A precision nut & lug may also help if threads are loose.
Hope you find a solution.
That is what I will check next. It has to be that or curvature or both.Quote:
loose threads will be evident.
Agree with you Bill it could be both.
It takes a good eye and certainly not my old eyes but looking through the bore may reveal something drastic with "curvature" or even a bend in the barrel. The sight picture will actually look like an oval when the light is just right.
Hope you get it figured out & it shoots great,
Randy
Just got in from another test. Put 22-250 barrel on another receiver. Same problem...did not hit target board at 25 yards so I moved to 15!
Barely caught the bottom edge...however the windage was correct....let' hear it for the WINDAGE! Yes!
Mark the barrel so next time you mount it the POI will be high. Then you don't need a 20MOA rail for the scope :)
Great advice from charlie b.
It truly might be a "curvature" issue, you may find acceptable headspace when it is high (12:00) by trying different bolt heads. If it however 180° off that is doubtful
That will leave deepening the chamber or the Burris Signature mounts. Having the windage right leaves the elevation ability to use its full travel. The Burris inserts can then get your zero leaving the most available within the scope.
If it were mine I would try the Burris first just to see if the barrel shoots.
Keep us posted, curious to see how it comes out.
I think the windage ended up being fairly accurate this time because the barrel was indexed differently on the "new" receiver....so that would indicate, to me anyway, that curvature is more of an issue. In other words, this time instead of being very low and very right it was very low only.
Lol.Did that make sense?
Where did you buy this barrel from? Pete's house of pry bars?
Makes sense to me. One other possibility may be the possible loose threads end up, or the condition of the lug, nut & reciever. If you are using a factory stamped recoil lug sometimes the thickness varies quite a bit. Most often thicker towards the bottom sometimes several thousandths. But on the sides also.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbm
Too bad there is no one magic cure.
My guess being it was way off on both is curvature. Did you get a chance to compare the thread "wiggle" at the end of the barrel? It still could be that and when tight it will point to the path of least resistance against the thread. It is also possible and sharpshooter can answer this better that the threads themselves are not true with the bore. No real fix for that except indexing and chamber work. Probably not worth it at that point for a factory barrel.
Hope you get it where it needs to be.
Someone I trusted. Burn me once!Quote:
Where did you buy this barrel from?
Nah. Tired of messing with it. Just going to write it off. I'll send it to you if you want to mess with it.Quote:
Hope you get it where it needs to be.
I was wondering who would post that video first.....
Bill,
Fighting myself with a take-off now...hits the center of the target but not as often as I like it...lol....havent found a load it likes. Not loading for 22-250 would be the reason for not taking you up on the offer.
These factory take offs are a crap shoot. Although most of them are pretty good. The 6.5 Creed axis barrel I bought from you a couple years back was exceptional and shot great right out of the starting gate. My grandson shot an eight pointer with it in Wisconsin last year.
If it were mine as a last resort I would shorten it and recrown. It may just pull it out of the worst part of the curvature. It could also make it worse!....
Robin & celltech,
Maybe a good wack will fix wbm's barrel...just got to know where to hold the "trademark" or end up with a broken bat.
There is a fix......probably controversial, but it seems to work because they do it all the time at the factory. This is a detail that probably no one knows about, nor has been considered a viable fix even to the back yard gunsmith. The factory barrel threads can be on the small side just from production tolerance, along with receiver threads a little big, or a combination of stacked tolerance. A few of us here know what can happen when the thread fit is sloppy......the barrel will end up drooping with gravity when cinched up. I found this out by chucking up the receiver and checking runout at the end of the barrel. You would be shocked how much droop a sloppy fit will create, and on the other hand, you would be amazed how straight and consistent a proper fit is.
When I toured the plant back in 2005, I got to "build " my own rifle there.(Like that was a big deal to me.....) Anyway...after I installed the barrel, we turned around to a fixture with V blocks and an indicator. I asked, "What's this do?" The gal replied, "We're gonna check it for straightness." She laid the receiver in the V blocks, and rotated it with an indicator contacting the barrel about an inch from the muzzle. A full rotation moved the indicator needle .001". She went on to state that if it was more than .020", the barrel is "adjusted" to be closer. To demonstrate, the next barreled action was checked and adjusted with an arbor press. At this point I was totally confused, as I just witnessed a worker straighten a barrel as it came off the profiling lathe. " You mean to tell me, that after that guy just massaged that barrel straight, you're gonna bend it so it's straight with the action? Isn't that counter productive?" About that time, the lead man for barrel dept. jumped in and clarified things. He said, "No.....were not gonna bend the barrel, we're going to "slip the joint".
The barreled action was moved to the straightening fixture with the arbor press. There is a V block placed under the rear bridge, and one placed 4 inches ahead of the recoil lug. After it is rotated to find the high spot, the arbor press is used to press right on the thread joint. What this does is push the joint laterally, despite the tension on the nut. This is done until the muzzle is fairly concentric to the receiver, mostly to insure that the barrel sets straight in the stock.
The tighter the thread joint, the less lateral movement is encountered. A class 3 fit will insure that the barrel will draw up and center itself very consistently. The trouble with that is, although it was called out as a class 3 fit, it was hard to hold on old machinery of the time, so they found a cheap and dirty fix.
Interesting post, very informative.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Thanks for the post Fred!
Sorta the "perfect storm" of droop!Quote:
The factory barrel threads can be on the small side just from production tolerance, along with receiver threads a little big, or a combination of stacked tolerance.
Ah Ha! I bet this is the original rifle that the 22-250 barrel I have came from. It is a Savage conspiracy no doubt.
https://www.savageshooters.com/showt...14-Barrel-bent
Thanks sharpshooter,
This certainly explains some of what all of us experience while playing "musical barrels"!
Question: Does "slipping the joint" physically displace or deform the threads themselves, in order to hold the new alignment? Or does it just reposition the barrel on the threads as gravity does on loose threads?
If it is just repositioning, then a properly fitting fixture (A good stock) could be used to set barrel straight before torquing.
More thoughts on this.
My action wrench is mounted on my bench so that the action is upside down when the barrel is headspaced & the nut is tightened. Pointing high on bore sighting has been common.
Thinking out loud.
I've pondered this, guess it could work in the event of sub-standard machining of the receiver face and barrel nut.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Thread fitment of barrel tenon to receiver is not critical- in fact, threads that are too tight are detrimental.
When I first started riflesmithing, I had conversations with those knowing far more than I to glean the "basics". Both "Daves" (Kiff, and Manson) agreed on this. The threads serve to bring the parts together- it's the critical shoulder surfaces (or the back side of the nut, on a nutted barrel) that bring the parts into correct alignment. These mating surfaces MUST be perfectly at 90 degrees to the centerline of the receiver. It's the clearance between the thread crests and roots of the parts that allows the shoulders to bring them into alignment.
If that is correctly done, any very minor "misalignment" due to thread tolerances will result in radial misalignment- which is virtually undetectable. The bore will still be in perfect axial alignment- meaning parallel to the centerline of the receiver, assuming of course that the barrel was correctly set-up when chambered. On a production rifle where the receiver face isn't trued, and the mating surface of the nut isn't perfectly square to the threads this "fix" could probably help.
Putting an action in an arbor press- with the pressure point inches ahead of the receiver face sounds like a sure way to tweak a receiver.
I have a barrel I threaded for one of my Borden’s. Actually it headspaces on both of my Borden’s because Jim’s work is that good. Anyway, I overcut the threads. I don’t know what happened, but my mistake. I’m not gonna say how much because it’s too embarrassing, but it’s a lot. It’s loose as Hell. One of my best shooting barrels.Quote:
Originally Posted by tobnpr
Barrel bending has been around for a long time and Herb was the best. He had a small shack at the Grand American the largest shooting event in the world and there he would install his Super Choke and tweak barrels to shoot a percentage up or down. I still laugh when I remember him hitting a barrel on his padded counter and people nearby jumping out of their shoes in shock. It works!
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-.../i-x7dXrpm.jpg
Hall of Fame Inductee
BACK TO INDUCTEES
Herb Orre
INDUCTED IN 1991
Born: 25-Apr-1905
Died: 2-Sep-1985
Age: 75
State: OH
It has been said that Herb Orre was once responsible for breaking more targets than anyone in trapshooting --- not through his own shooting prowess, but because he spent his life perfecting guns for the sports champions.
Son of a world renowned shot manufacturer near Stockholm, Sweden, Herb always loved to hunt. His introduction to a Model 12 shotgun, 4,000 miles from its place of manufacture, when he was twelve years old so excited him that after examining it from barrel to forearm, from trigger mechanism to stock, and then firing it, the decision for his future was made. It was then he determined that one day he would leave his native Sweden to come to the United States.
A few years later he followed through on his childhood dream. When he reached these shores he applied for a job at Winchester Arms Company. Tests showed that he had a tremendous knowledge of firearms and mathematics and he was hired. He started as an instructor in shotgun manufacturing and then was promoted to chief inspector. During this time he changed the hammer design and the firing pin on the Model 12. When he was foreman in the assembly room he developed the technique for assembling a new side-by-side shotgun. The development of the new gun had begun in 1928, two years after he began working for the company. Shortly before this time, the company had abandoned its policy of designating guns by model numbers reflecting the year they were developed. Arbitrary numbers had begun to be used.
For Herb Orre, the boy from Sweden, there was special significance to the number assigned to this new gun, the Model 21. He was 21 years old when he worked with George Lewis and Frank Burton (the men whose names appear on the patent) on designing and producing the gun. One of them asked Herb’s age at the time the gun was to be named, and the answer became a part of firearms history.
Four years later Herb Orre attended the Grand American for the first time. It was here he claimed he started to learn about the people, and at the same time began to learn what shooters wanted and needed in a trap gun. Seventeen years later he left Winchester Arms and set up his own shop where he declared he "wanted to give the shooters something to think about". He gave them the Herb Orre Super-Choke.
The effects of that decision were far reaching. He eventually established his shop in 1955 on a 24- acre farm on the outskirts of Phillipsburg, Ohio. Ideally located a few miles from Vandalia, Herb was in a strategic location to serve the multitude of both local and transient trapshooters. Those who couldn’t come in person used the U.S. mails, sending so many guns from all parts of the country to Phillipsburg that the post office moved up a notch on the scale of postal ratings that were determined by mail volume. The town even acquired a new post office building. Herb’s Super-Choke invention that opened the shotgun pattern quickly to give a better advantage for 16-yard shooting (and handicap up to 24 yards), opened many other doors as well.
For five decades Orre watched shooters come and go - - - and some of them stay on as champions. He had a fantastic memory for details and could remember winners of every important shoot he attended, heard about, or read about. This, plus his objectivity, led to his 10-year appointment to the All-American Selection Committee in 1963. From 1932 to 1965 he never missed a Grand American.
A testimonial to Herb Orre once described him as "one of the masterminds that vastly improved gun technology, and therefore scores". Among the many outstanding champions who availed themselves of Herb’s expertise in gun choking resulting in such top ranking scores were Trapshooting Hall of Famers Bueford Bailey, Hiram Bradley, Gene Sears, George Snellenberger, and John Sternberger.
Herb’s white house and barn near Phillipsburg were a far cry, in many ways, from the castle he left in Sweden. But, there are thousands of persons associated with trapshooting who are glad this man chose to take the long trip. His decision to come to the United States not only changed his life; it helped alter the history of trapshooting.
The Fix. Unfreaking believable! 3=.125"
How can removing 2" of barrel create this kind of change? Man with some Devon, a Jard, perhaps even a NF this thing could be a shooter!
What I did.
1 Cut 2" off barrel.
2 Used Dremel to smooth muzzle face. Took Wilson brass bevel tool and used the pointy end to sorta ream the rough edges of bore. How's that for a git er done "target" crown?
3 Took the barrel off a receiver that I knew was "true"... IE. Scope was set at mechanical zero and required very little adjustment to be set for 100 yard
Zero with the barrel that was on it.
4 Removed barrel and replaced with "Nightmare"....made no scope adjustments. First three rounds ended up with .345" Outside Diameter and were
approximately 2" higher than the original setup.
5. Used same loads as before the "fix".
Sounds like a great outcome Bill.
Sometimes a "hacksaw" and a file will make an entirely adequate crown. Brownells sell a hand crowning tool that does an admirable job when a lathe is not available.
I've used that Wilson chamfer tool for a number of tasks including the chamfer on the breech end of a chamber.
Your barrel is shooting great, sad thing is it can't get much better!...lol
Glad you got it shooting, and very well at that!
It would be interesting to see if it would do that with the original receiver now.
Jack
It would...and that might be next. Problem is I am out of H380 and 55gr Sierra HPBT's....got to fix that.Quote:
It would be interesting to see if it would do that with the original receiver now.
I remember reading how Virgil King (secrets of the Houston warehouse) would lap his barrels into the receiver by applying some lapping compound on the tenon threads, screwing into the receiver then pulling straight while turning. A little bit went a long way to gain a lot more thread contact.
I've had aftermarket barrels what were so undersize in the tenon threads that they'd chatter while screwing into the receiver. I went through those steps and they seemed to align well when using ground barrel nuts and recoil lugs, but I don't shoot at competition level so I'm not the best yardstick with which to gage the effectiveness of this method.
He was also the one who went to 45deg shoulders to center the barrel into the receiver.
PS wonder what the old muzzle looked like on that barrel.
And another..think i'll keep it.
Nice rifle driving!
The heavy barrel on the Boyd's"not so featherweight" thumbhole stock is like an anchor with the 22-250. Would not want to carry it about but it is a nice setup for prairie dogging.
Good to hear it meets your expectations. Sometimes persistence pays off!Quote:
Originally Posted by wbm
Have two of the "not so featherweight" thumbholes, I know what you mean. Added pillars & bedded both....they shoot well and look nice.....safety is awkward to operate for some hunting situations....but overall are definitely ok for the money.
Probably will be taking one with a 24" 110-sr barrel in 6.5 CM on my antelope hunt in WY. Heavy (9+) but shoots well.
The above barrel also started out as a new "take off" and did not group well. After pouring 3 or 4 lead laps and 400 rounds of load development, finally it is shooting good enough to serve as a spare for that road trip.
One of the best shooting Savage rifles I have had is a cut down 6.5CM 12FV heavy barrel..22"...have it on a Boyd's thumbhole also...shoots great!Quote:
Probably will be taking one with a 24" 110-sr barrel in 6.5 CM on my antelope hunt in WY. Heavy (9+) but shoots well.
FWIW...the very best load in that rifle was with 43.5gr Winchester 6.5 StaBall and 140gr Nosler RDF. It shot so-so(less than MOA) at 2.810" COL but just drilled small holes when I went just short of the lands. 6.5 StaBall performed better overall than H4350, RL-16, or H4831 in 140gr weights,
That rifle is shooting great Bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbm
The real bummer is I didn't take you up in post #15...lol
LOL. I heard that!
I would have never thought about removing the end of the barrel. Glad it is shooting so well.
It is a paradox! From absolutely the worst barrel I ever encountered to one of the best. I reviewed the process I used to exclude any factors but the barrel and can't find a flaw in my methods so right now it is the last 2" of barrel. Go figure!
It would be interesting to see what an air gauge would tell us. Or perhaps a cast.