First Savage Rifle-Not Impressed thus far.

I've always heard Savage Rifles were accurate well beyond their price range. I always said if they made one that wasn't butt ugly I would give them a try. Well they did- the High Country and I bought one. My enthusiasm ended there. I'm new to Savage Center Fires and not sure "How" they build them but a lifetime of Rifle use in my life (approaching 60 faster than I care to admit) tells me this one was built all wrong. Over 20 clicks of horizontal adjustment(from a true centered scope) just to get the cross hairs over the barrel for a bore sight. UNACCEPTABLE. I tried different rings, bases, scopes and laser and manual bore sighting techniques all to the same result. Depending what type of scope you mount you would have to use 1/2 or more of your horizontal adjustments just to get a bore sight. The scope mounting holes appear to be straight so it has to be something with the barrel and receiver not lined up correctly. If this is one of the "high end" Rifles whats a cheaper model built like? My friend owns a sporting good store says he's had 5 or 6 Savages like this the past year! What is going on? I did not even shoot it, not worth the frustration. A higher priced rifle like this i expect a little better craftsmanship and attention to detail. Once I verified it was truly the rifle and not me or my equipment it went back in the box and back to Savage.

With all this being said I have owned many brands of Rifles and they ALL have their problems regardless of brand and price. Mass produced rifles are a roll of the dice and I'm aware of that. At this point what makes a Rifle Company Stand Out is their Customer Service and ability to properly fix the Rifle in a somewhat timely manner. With Covid-19 still going on I don't expect fast service but I do expect a near perfect rifle when it is returned. The Rifle has been with Savage almost a month, they said the Rifle was tore down and minor adjustments made. Not sure what "minor adjustments are?" and it was in line to be test fired. I really hope this turns out it has the DNA to be a great shooting rifle but so far I'm left disappointed and waiting............

Frustrating for sure. Think you should probably sell it and go with another brand.

I am betting there was an issue with barrel straightness or the process they go to when mating the barrel to the action. It sounds like the action and the barrel where pointing different directions. I think you will be happier when it comes back.

I hope you are happy with it when it comes back.

Just some thought on the subject.
20 clicks is 5 moa, most scopes i have are 60 to 90 moa of wind, but i think i have one that is 40, so half each wayis 20, and minus 5 is 15 moa left. I personally don't dial wind, only elevation. 5 moa doesn't seem like a lot to me.

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Originally Posted by wbm

Frustrating for sure. Think you should probably sell it and go with another brand.

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This might be sage advice, to be 5 moa, or 1/12th of a degree off on the angle of the mounting holes is not going to be visible by the naked eye...

i really hate to be that guy, but without a round down range and a real zero and testing to see how centered the scope really was, it just seems silly to send the gun back.
Did you use the mirror method to test the optical center of your scope? If you just ran the scope both ways and divided by 2 and put it in the mechanical center, your optical center may be off by 5 moa easily. I have 2 $900 scopes of the same brand that are 22 moa off optically from the mechanical center.

Yes true optical center by click counting and mirror method. 5+ moa before you even start is extreme to me IMHO as well as the local gunsmith who works on rifles for a living. The last three rifles I mounted scopes on one or two CLICKS of horizontal for a bore sight. Yes 5 moa is not a show stopper but for a rifle that is over $1,100 msrp??? Come on... should be better. Don't get me wrong I hope it comes back shooting like a champion I bought it cause I like it!

It probably is the rifle. Used to surprise me until I ran into a few guys with custom rifles with the same kinds of dumb problems.

One was a $5000 custom built with one of the higher end actions and barrels. The guy could not bore sight. He asked me what I thought. When I looked at the barrel from the back it was obvious it was installed crooked. Ended up being that high end action was the problem. And, yes, they fixed it.

This is one of the many reasons I don’t buy ANY manufacturers rifles or pistols any longer. Not even Savage. I build my own...myself.

You said if they ever made one that wasn’t “butt ugly” you would try it? And the High Country was your bride of choice? Ok.(beauty TRULY is in they eye of the beholder!) In any case...do you know why YOU are complaining about it? Because YOU are unfortunately one of the unlucky few who received one of the fractions of 1% of rifles that either missed QC or was damaged somewhere along the way dyring delivery. Yes, yes...I know some random “Gun Store” guy (you say a friend.. random to us), told you he’s seen several.. Uh-huh. I wonder if he’s related to one of the COUNTLESS Gun store guys who have seen all these many, many Savages that are just BAD! These guys are fairly easy to find. But we never see any evidence. Save of course for that FRACTION of a percent of the MILLIONS of rifles Savage sells. Strange thing, ALL manufactures seem to suffer this same problem..go figure! :noidea:

I don’t mean to disregard your situation OP. We can all, I’m sure, understand your frustration. But your first sentence is the resounding number of cases of Savage rifles. Many offer quite good performance for their price tags. Still though, this does happen. And what makes it worse is you chose one of Savage’s much higher priced offerings. Thus you went into the purchase with the misconception of a $500 Savage is supposed to offer GOOD accuracy, this rifle should offer DOUBLE the performance! Many firearms buyers have this thinking. As has been said, I’m sure Savage will address the issue to fair standards.

You don't want a rifle that takes this much windage to get to zero (assuming optical center of the scope is correct).
Could be any number of things causing it from bore curvature, bent barrel, and incorrectly drilled/tapped mounting holes in the receiver.
Bottom line is that you end up with a "zero" that will change based on distance and this isn't acceptable.
Just like a rifle with a scope mounted off the centerline (like a milsurp with a side-mount), the line of sight with the scope, and projected bore axis will cross at only one point in space and it will vary with range.

Even with no "wind", you will need a different windage adjustment for different ranges. It can be dealt with by getting that dope and making the needed adjustments, but it's an unnecessary PITA and shouldn't be on a new rifle.

They probably won't tell you whether they replaced the barrel, receiver, or both- but hope it shoots straight when you get it back.

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You don't want a rifle that takes this much windage to get to zero (assuming optical center of the scope is correct).
Could be any number of things causing it from bore curvature, bent barrel, and incorrectly drilled/tapped mounting holes in the receiver.
Bottom line is that you end up with a "zero" that will change based on distance and this isn't acceptable.
Just like a rifle with a scope mounted off the centerline (like a milsurp with a side-mount), the line of sight with the scope, and projected bore axis will cross at only one point in space and it will vary with range.

Even with no "wind", you will need a different windage adjustment for different ranges. It can be dealt with by getting that dope and making the needed adjustments, but it's an unnecessary PITA and shouldn't be on a new rifle.

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Yup


https://www.armietiro.it/files/artic...B_-mg-0770.jpg

Looks good

Did you try a different scope/rings/bases to prove your issue was with the gun itself?

No mention of elevation has me wondering as well? Everyone uses 10or20 Moa bases for elevation with no worrry about optical center. Your worried about optical center on your windage, but were able to boresight it, have plenty of available windage left in both directions I’m sure, and never even put a bullet down range?

I think you shouldve shot it and actually zeroed it in, then re-evaluated how far from optical zero you were. Then decide whether that is really an issue or not. And also whether the issue is even the gun itself, or something else.....

I’ve got the High Country in 6.5 PRC and have had no issues with it. It took minimal scope adjustments to get zero’d in.

some random “Gun Store” guy (you say a friend.. random to us) Mr Hoback I would like to respectfully say you are out of line here. You do not know me nor do you know my friend. You have basically called me and my friend "liars". I have no reason to lie and my friend (who really owns a gun shop) has no reason to lie about sending Savage Rifles back to the factory. As if he has nothing better to do.

I do agree with some of what you said and in my initial statement I clearly stated all gun companies have an occasional problems. Nothing against Savage. As far as money spent if I spend more I expect more. Wanting the barrel to be in alignment with the receiver is a pretty basic part of rifle building. I'm sorry if I gave the impression I expected "better accuracy" for more money because I don't believe money necessarily buys better accuracy. I do expect better craftsmanship and better materials with higher costs.

Savage is american company and I want them to do well. I am disappointed initially but Savage has the opportunity to change that. I hope when my rifle comes back Im writing you all what a great job they did and what an awesome rifle it is.

Yes tried different scopes, rings, bases and different bore scope methods all came out about the same. (about 22 clicks to the right required to get the cross hairs over the bore no matter what was tried) Elevation had no issues.

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Originally Posted by Mrvmax

I’ve got the High Country in 6.5 PRC and have had no issues with it. It took minimal scope adjustments to get zero’d in.

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Hows it shoot Accuracy? Hows the recoil...what would you compare it to?

I just started working on hand loads but the two factory loads I tried are around 1 moa. My Savage 12 LRP got me .29 moa with little effort and I was hoping this one would be grouping better. Hopefully I’ll find a load it likes at get to at least .75, not that it matters since I’m mainly shooting pigs with it but I expect less than 1 moa out of my rifles. Call me spoiled I guess.
I’m never good at gauging recoil since I normally don’t pay attention to it. Unless the recoil is excessive (like a Weatherby Vanguard I used to have in 7 mag was) I don’t think about it much. To me the recoil is minimal and my Benelli R1 in 30-06 that I was shooting that day definitely had more recoil. The recoil is low enough that I can stay on target but that doesn’t tell you much. The next time I take it out I’ll try and compare to another rifle or two.

OP, did you happen to check it with the alignment rods that come in a ring lapping kit? I'm curious how much they were off (if any).

https://www.wheelertools.com/scope-m...it/305172.html

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Originally Posted by tobnpr

You don't want a rifle that takes this much windage to get to zero (assuming optical center of the scope is correct).
Could be any number of things causing it from bore curvature, bent barrel, and incorrectly drilled/tapped mounting holes in the receiver.
Bottom line is that you end up with a "zero" that will change based on distance and this isn't acceptable.
Just like a rifle with a scope mounted off the centerline (like a milsurp with a side-mount), the line of sight with the scope, and projected bore axis will cross at only one point in space and it will vary with range.

Even with no "wind", you will need a different windage adjustment for different ranges. It can be dealt with by getting that dope and making the needed adjustments, but it's an unnecessary PITA and shouldn't be on a new rifle.

They probably won't tell you whether they replaced the barrel, receiver, or both- but hope it shoots straight when you get it back.

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Don’t think that’s how it works. The scope tube may not be in line, but the real action happens in the erector tube. Unless the erector tube is hitting the scope tube sidewall, the angular difference isn’t a factor. Good discussion here about it, does get into the weeds a little bit. Hope it’s ok to link: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting...h-bore.113115/

I would have taken the rifle to the range. But it’s not mine to take and don’t blame the OP for sending it back. Savage is no longer a budget rifle in my opinion, but the quality has become so.

^^^
Thanks for the link, I'll read through the discussion there. I don't see how the line of sight through the scope, and the outside of the tube can be anything but axially aligned but as the saying goes "I was wrong once before" :)

Radial alignment could be "off", which would be corrected if it were very minimal- such as the receiver mounting holes being a few thousandths off-center. However, if the holes are not axially aligned with the centerline of the receiver, this would not be "correctable".

Hopefully Savage will remedy the problem and the frustration will come to an end.
Ive had similar issues with getting windage issues resolved after mounting scopes.
There are a few mounts that can help with that other than the Burris insert ones.
The old Redfield/Leupold mount with the windage adjustment on the rear can be used without using the windage adjustment built into the scope.
Also US Optics makes a very good but also very pricey windage adjustable mount.
Years back there were popular scopes including the Bausch&Lomb balvar line that had no adjustments on the scope at all.
All the adjustments for both windage and elevation were in the scope mount.
As for not dialing for windage, thats a common approach for LR hunters to use, but only when knowing the windage and elevation is correct for the initial zero. Zero actually serves no purpose other than a place to return to so you know where you are. Otherwise it can become chaos, which it sometimes ends up being anyway. lol
Actually the least amount of dialing done the better, especially when the excitement level is elevated.
Thats when mistakes are more apt to be made, so holding for follow up shots for both windage and elevation within reason at least is a good idea.
We are to a large degree attempting to make science out of something that really isnt science with all this data BS.

Retired Army Guy,
It's too bad you didn't join this forum prior to your purchase. Your misalignment problem is very common to Savages at all "price" levels. A search on here would have given you a heads up to this and other idiosyncrasies.
$1100 is far from "cheap" but still won't guarantee the quality of a custom.
Many on this forum have fixed the problem you have with Burris Signature rings/inserts.
Savage test firings normally dont detect or cure the misalignment problem. But now in your case they will be forced to. Most likely by changing barrel alignment with a different recoil lug. But if you change barrels in the future it may just come back!
I've seen them so far off that windage would not zero. With an aftermarket barrel I had one that would not zero with elevation.
Life is too short to sweat these little things. Buy a set of Burris rings when you get it back. You can get your centered windage plus any degree of elevation you desire.
Good luck,
Randy

Or better yet... fix it correctly. Either by Savage or a Gunsmith if you are not able yourself. Then get a high quality set of rings. Or better yet, a one piece mount.

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Originally Posted by mnbogboy2

Retired Army Guy,
It's too bad you didn't join this forum prior to your purchase. Your misalignment problem is very common to Savages at all "price" levels. A search on here would have given you a heads up to this and other idiosyncrasies.
$1100 is far from "cheap" but still won't guarantee the quality of a custom.
Many on this forum have fixed the problem you have with Burris Signature rings/inserts.
Savage test firings normally dont detect or cure the misalignment problem. But now in your case they will be forced to. Most likely by changing barrel alignment with a different recoil lug. But if you change barrels in the future it may just come back!
I've seen them so far off that windage would not zero. With an aftermarket barrel I had one that would not zero with elevation.
Life is too short to sweat these little things. Buy a set of Burris rings when you get it back. You can get your centered windage plus any degree of elevation you desire.
Good luck,
Randy

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Yes I agree! That's really why I did the post to see if others had the same problem and how it turned out. Everyone says they will fix it so I'm thinking positive thoughts.
I had a Model 70 Win. with the elevation issue it was crazy off ended up doing a screw in shim and its fine. I cant remember for sure but i think the front of the receiver was like 1/10" higher than the rear. The worst anyone I know has ever seen! Its a shooter now with a $1.00 fix!

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Or better yet... fix it correctly. Either by Savage or a Gunsmith if you are not able yourself. Then get a high quality set of rings. Or better yet, a one piece mount.

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Yes I agree there are many options worth exploring; this is not the first time I've had to think outside the box. I'm thinking positive its going to come back and be great! :cool:

Well I couldn't hardly believe it- after all this time a UPS truck delivered me a new rifle yesterday. Mounted a scope on it and did not need a single click of windage and barely two clicks of elevation to get the cross hairs over the bore=PERFECT! :victorious::victorious: Even though they were kinda slow the replacement rifle so far appears to be near perfect! Glad to see an American Firearms Company making quality products! Cant wait to shoot it!

Mass production always turns out a few lemons.

Apparently Savage agreed this was the case- hoping it shoots straight, good luck.

Not attacking anyone (and if I am wrong I am willing to change my opinion)- but this seems like such overkill for a non-issue. 5 moa off of center? Custom guns have that.... and it doesn't matter. Take 2 defiance actions with the machined in integrated rail and remove a zeroed scope from one and put it on the other and it will not be dead on.

And as far as light transmission and image quality... If that was such a big issue then people wouldn't dial elevation in their scope- they would have rings that dialed it. Any time that you are actually shooting the gun (at any distance) you have dialed away from center.... and it's no issue.

But I'm glad that you received a rifle that you are happy with....

Great thread. Learn something new every time I come here.

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Originally Posted by Whynot

Not attacking anyone (and if I am wrong I am willing to change my opinion)- but this seems like such overkill for a non-issue. 5 moa off of center? Custom guns have that.... and it doesn't matter. Take 2 defiance actions with the machined in integrated rail and remove a zeroed scope from one and put it on the other and it will not be dead on.

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5 minutes off receiver centerline at 100 yards isn't acceptable, and I don't follow the analogy with custom actions. Even on the same rifle, you're never getting back to zero removing and re-installing a scope even with quality QD rings.

No way to know in this case if it was the receiver, the barrel, or a combination of the two. I can honestly say I've never encountered a rifle (that wasn't defective) with that much error. It would be bad enough if it were elevation- which can be corrected. A large windage error like this is impossible to correct (easily, anyway...). The line of sight, and the imaginary line of the bore axis will cross at a different point at any given distance- it's not linear. 5 minutes at 100 yards becomes 10 minutes at 200 yards- and over 4 feet at 1000. Then, factor in the actual wind call on top of that. Too much going on there for accurate dope.

In any case, Savage would not have replaced the rifle if they didn't concur that it was substandard.

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Originally Posted by tobnpr

5 minutes off receiver centerline at 100 yards isn't acceptable, and I don't follow the analogy with custom actions. Even on the same rifle, you're never getting back to zero removing and re-installing a scope even with quality QD rings.

No way to know in this case if it was the receiver, the barrel, or a combination of the two. I can honestly say I've never encountered a rifle (that wasn't defective) with that much error. It would be bad enough if it were elevation- which can be corrected. A large windage error like this is impossible to correct (easily, anyway...). The line of sight, and the imaginary line of the bore axis will cross at a different point at any given distance- it's not linear. 5 minutes at 100 yards becomes 10 minutes at 200 yards- and over 4 feet at 1000. Then, factor in the actual wind call on top of that. Too much going on there for accurate dope.

In any case, Savage would not have replaced the rifle if they didn't concur that it was substandard.

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That was my point.... pull your scope off and then replace it and it very rarely returns to the exact zero... sometimes you can be inches off. So if something that simple can move your zero that much is seems crazy to worry about 5 inches off at 100 yards. Think about what % error that actually is.... 100 yards is 300 feet so 3600 inches... and you are dealing with 5" in 3600". And that is assuming that it was all on the rifle and nothing on the base or rings.

Dial the 5moa into your scope, set the turrets to zero and never think about it again.

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Originally Posted by Whynot

That was my point.... pull your scope off and then replace it and it very rarely returns to the exact zero... sometimes you can be inches off. So if something that simple can move your zero that much is seems crazy to worry about 5 inches off at 100 yards. Think about what % error that actually is.... 100 yards is 300 feet so 3600 inches... and you are dealing with 5" in 3600". And that is assuming that it was all on the rifle and nothing on the base or rings.

Dial the 5moa into your scope, set the turrets to zero and never think about it again.

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Agree with that. Also, we can beat ourselves up all day long about small axial misalignments due to good machining practices or the lack thereof. At the end of the day, not a single barrel is perfect and the bore wonders a bit on every one of them and I’ve never seen one that was perfectly centered, not that I have the measuring equipment to know how much. Put one in a lathe and look down the bore while it’s spinning. Even the best ones will sometimes make you dizzy. And they still shoot just fine. The best we can hope for is excellent bore and groove diameter consistency and stress - free heat treatment. Barrel QC is where it’s at, and is totally beyond the control of the gun plumber. NBRSA hall of famer Tony Boyer will have several barrels chambered at a time. Same maker same smith. And he will cull a bunch of them.

I have chambered many switch barrels. I have a 7-08 and a 6.5 from X-Caliber that I can interchange on the same action with 1 MOA POI shift. That’s the only ones[emoji1]

Glad Savage made it right. Would still have been interesting to shoot the original.

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Originally Posted by gbflyer

Would still have been interesting to shoot the original.

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That's the real issue.... I've bore sighted enough rifles (with lasers and removing the bolt and sighting) and you don't get close enough to have any idea if the rifle and scope were actually off. You can not bore sight and depend to be close,- all you really get is enough to be on paper and then fine tune. Also, (unless they have changed) the UPS just doesn't deliver new rifles.... they could have worked on it- or installed a new barrel, but a new gun would require paperwork. At least that was what they told me, that it was illegal to put the same serial # on a new action even if they destroyed the old one.

Everything else in this thread is the Gospel, but think about changes caused by not having the scope mounted with equal AND proper torque on the mount to the rifle and the same for the rings and the scope. I have made that error myself and caused about 100 rounds to be used (wasted) trying to figure it out on this issue.

Interesting, very similar to a LRH I recently bought. Was waaaay high and had to use about 1/3 of my elevation on a Ziess V-4 just to sight in at 100 yds, poor accuracy overall & have crazy shifts in windage when I change loads even with the same bullet weight, like 10" difference at 100 yds.