Revisiting the 300 Blackout on a Savage platform?

The BO has been out long enough thought it would be interesting to revisit building one off a Savage action.

For those that have done/considered this:

What went well?

What didn't go so well?

Barrel length/twists that worked better than others for super and/or subsonic?

Feeding/extraction issues?

Things you wish you knew?

Have a SA kicking around, considering a BO build obviously. Project would be for experimenting with super and subsonic loads on paper @ mostly 100 yards, prob push to 200 now and then for kicks. Started by looking at the 38 Thumper but not sure I want to tackle that big of a project just yet. Kicked around the 450 BM, a Hornet, the Raptor, 358 win, a plain 223 etc but may just go with a BO for simplicity's sake.

Interested to hear what folks have to say about this round in a Savage- thanks!

Well, in the world of accuracy vs subsonic, (for spittin’ through a can RRRREEEELLLY quiet!), the 300AAC seems to be at the front of the pack. You can load higher BC pills, like the 220gr MK’s in the <1100fps range and still have match grade accuracy. WITH 45acp+P power to boot! I don’t think any of the other ultra short action, SUBSONIC offerings can match it. I’m not a fan, for other reasons, but truth is truth regardless. And it does indeed seem to stand alone with your criteria in mind Mattri.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mattri

The BO has been out long enough thought it would be interesting to revisit building one off a Savage action.

For those that have done/considered this:

What went well? If you reload you can use fast pistol powder to create very quiet loads. VV N105, Blue Dot and Trail Boss all work well. I have used Trail Boss compressed with heavy bullets and have yet to have an issue.

What didn't go so well? Nothing I can think of. I have been involved with and building 300 Blackout guns for at least 8 years now.

Barrel length/twists that worked better than others for super and/or subsonic? I have used barrels from 32" down to 3.5" for the 300 Blackout. I would stay in the 8"-16" range. Shorter and it tends to get louder, even with a silencer, and longer is just not needed. As far as twist rates anything 8 twist or faster will work with 99% of the bullets on the market. ACME bullet company sells a 265 grain bullet that is stable in 8 twist barrels because it is cast and coated bullet which tends to be more stable than longer jacketed bullets.

Feeding/extraction issues? If you file the bottom of the slot in the ejector it will help with ejection. You want the ejector to be flush with the front of the bolt head.

Things you wish you knew? I should have jumped on the bandwagon sooner. It is the most versatile caliber ever. You can shoot 55g 00 buck balls all the way to 265g bullets. Supersonic and subsonic out of the same magazine in an AR15. Brass is easy to make from 5.56 and it uses the most common bullet diameter, .308".

Have a SA kicking around, considering a BO build obviously. Project would be for experimenting with super and subsonic loads on paper @ mostly 100 yards, prob push to 200 now and then for kicks. Started by looking at the 38 Thumper but not sure I want to tackle that big of a project just yet. Kicked around the 450 BM, a Hornet, the Raptor, 358 win, a plain 223 etc but may just go with a BO for simplicity's sake.

Interested to hear what folks have to say about this round in a Savage- thanks!

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Here is the 32" gun chambered in 300 Blackout.
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...78&oe=5DD09DFF
It is a Krieger barrel and I did it to explore max velocity with the 300 Blackout. I have a friend who has pushed a lightweight bullet past 3,000 FPS with his 300 Blackout bolt gun.

And here is a picture of my 300 Blackout bolt gun with a 3.5" barrel. It has my silencer on it. It uses a Nucleus action so it can be used as a pistol.
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...e4&oe=5DD48B84

And finally, I am currently building a Remington Model 7 as a pistol. The bare receiver was sold by Brownells so it is also legal to build into a pistol. It will feed from an AR magazine. It will be like a rear trigger XP100.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/tngunowners...2c92c7b8b0.jpg

For those that have done/considered this:

What went well?

There is nothing that gives trouble with this combo.

What didn't go so well?

Smooth sailing

Barrel length/twists that worked better than others for super and/or subsonic?

18"/8 twist/subsonic

Feeding/extraction issues?

None

Things you wish you knew?

How much fun you could have. Expansion is not easy out of conventional hunting or target projectiles.

Great information thanks for the posts.

Will definitely be handloading, seems liks this would be a good round for cast bullets- anyone try something like cast off wheel weights with a big meplat and/or hollow point? At sub speeds shouldn't lead too bad and may help with expansion.

VERY interesting posts. AR? Can? :cool: Well at least NOT in California.:sour: Still good to see other folks can have fun, even it we can't.;)

Yes, unfortunately in the “Communistfornia” you don’t get to have any fun with firearms...and you better not disagree or you are a racist! (I still don’t understand how they come to that). LOL.

Mattri, I am interested what you objective is for this? Is it simply for 100yd target shooting with a can? For the heck of it? I’m wondering because the notion is so grossly underpowered for any hunting, or target shooting beyond 100yds or so.

Thanks! Looking at bolt actions for now. Figure I'd focus on subsonic loads to see what kind of accuracy/performance is doable. That way if a can comes into play no need to reinvent the wheel and even if the can doesn't happen it's still a lot quieter and just an intereating experiment anyway. The 300 BO has the most support so far, if everything goes well it might be fun to move on and work with other rounds down the line.

Yes- the point of this is an experiment, something different. I've built rifles for bench work, varminting, hunting in the Rockies etc, this is just an exercise in shooting/loading subsonic. It will be for punching paper, how far out is part if the experiment.

I don't really hunt much anymore, and bottlenecks aren't allowed here anyway so no use for the 300 BO there. If tbis project turns out to be interesting and I move on to another round, 358, 450 BM etc down the line it could in theory see some sort of hunting application but that's too far down the road to even guess at for now.

I'm fortunate enough to have the opportunity to build a "fun" gun to experiment with, that's what this is about��

Ahhh, gotcha. I figured this was the situation. Unfortunately the laws of physics make it so that power-caliber size-velocity-noise level are all connected. You can have Power with large caliber & low velocity/low noise. Or you can have Power with smaller caliber & high velocity/higher noise. But you CAN’T have Power with smaller caliber & low velocity/low noise! Darn “law of physics” always gettin’ in the way of things!

Nothing's free for sure, kind of like when we were building motors, they used to say:

Cheap
Fast
Reliable

You can have two.

In the interest of full disclosure I should mention that I also want to start experimenting with lead bullets, bullets with different meplats/shapes and casting with different types/hardness- a test mule slated mostly for subsonic loads seemed a good place to start with that as well.

Dolomite, is that bottom pic your 6.5 Creedless?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/tngunowners...2c92c7b8b0.jpg

I’m guessing it is. The first time I saw the 300aac, 6.5mm is EXACTLY what I thought of! Then I came across Dolomite’s “Creedless” on one forum or another. Brilliant! Precisely what I would do if I had interest in this style.

It is, I am going to have a hex machined into the end of the barrels so I can switch calibers easily. Going to be 223 Remington, 300 Blackout and instead of the Creedless I am using a 221 Fireball necked up to 6mm.

I have been involved in the 300 Blackout for a VERY, VERY long time. Right after my helicopter accident I dabbled in bullet design as well as making bolt lift kits as a means to occupy my time and forget about life for a while. During that time I designed three different bullets for the Blackout. First was a 245 grain bullet that is super popular. Second was a 129 grain pointed bullet everyone dubbed the "Crayola of Death" because it looked like a Crayola Crayon. And initially it did not seem to work with harder alloys and slower twists it seems to do fine. And my final is the heaviest cast bullet available for the 300 Blackout. It is 265 grains and is stable in 8 twist or faster at subsonic velocities and stable in a 10 twist at above 1,100 fps. I licensed it to ACME bullet company and they produce and sell them. If the OP, or anyone else, gives them a try I will gladly provide load data for the bullet. It, unlike other subsonic bullets, hits HARD. I get feedback regularly from hunters and it smashes through shoulders and skulls even at subsonic velocities. It will feed from a magazine and cycle in an AR.

http://www.acmebullet.com/bullets-re...0Out/Black-Out

The "DS" in DS Special is my screen name.

And here is a picture of my 300 Blackout bolt gun with a 3.5" barrel. It has my silencer on it. It uses a Nucleus action so it can be used as a pistol.
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...e4&oe=5DD48B84


Explain?

That's a SBR...and will always be a SBR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobnpr

And here is a picture of my 300 Blackout bolt gun with a 3.5" barrel. It has my silencer on it. It uses a Nucleus action so it can be used as a pistol.
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...e4&oe=5DD48B84


Explain?

That's a SBR...and will always be a SBR.

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No, it’s not an SBR. That is a pistol brace it’s wearing. Little “workaround”(loophole) folks came up with years ago in the AR crowd.

^^
I see that now..., looks like it's missing the strap

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobnpr

^^
I see that now..., looks like it's missing the strap

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That is a Shockwave brace. They do not have a strap and are approved braces.

Also, that action is sold as a bare receiver so it can legally be built as a pistol. I built it as a pistol first so I can go back and forth between pistol and rifle all I want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly

Also, that action is sold as a bare receiver so it can legally be built as a pistol. I built it as a pistol first so I can go back and forth between pistol and rifle all I want.

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Bingo! The AR community has solved the SBR puzzle for everyone else! LOL! I wish all this had been around when I went through MY SBR infatuation. (EVERY AR enthusiast has this at some point or another). For most who have built them as long as I have, the SBR phase wears off. But there are a few who remain faithful.

Going back to the 300aac, it certainly fills a niche. But I certainly wouldn’t credit it with a host of talents. If accuracy is your game..there are better! If hunting is your bag...there are better! If distance is your ticket...there are MUCH better! Don’t get me wrong, it’s versatile. But one could argue the 6.5 Grendel being the same thing! (Was never a fan of that one either)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Bingo! The AR community has solved the SBR puzzle for everyone else! LOL! I wish all this had been around when I went through MY SBR infatuation. (EVERY AR enthusiast has this at some point or another). For most who have built them as long as I have, the SBR phase wears off. But there are a few who remain faithful.

Going back to the 300aac, it certainly fills a niche. But I certainly wouldn’t credit it with a host of talents. If accuracy is your game..there are better! If hunting is your bag...there are better! If distance is your ticket...there are MUCH better! Don’t get me wrong, it’s versatile. But one could argue the 6.5 Grendel being the same thing! (Was never a fan of that one either)

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It may not be great at too many things but name another caliber capable of what the 300 blackout is. Quiet subsonic rounds and 500+ yard capable rounds out of the same gun and magazine without any adjustment. If I hunted I could take 00 buck and a super lightweight load of powder to take squirrels or use full power loads to kill most anything in North America. Granted it isn't going to kill an elk at 500 yards but people have killed elk with it. What makes it great isn't that it can do any one of those things you mention but it can do all of them. It is hard to find a compromise that is as useful as the 300 Blackout. Name a semi auto that can shoot 75 grain to 280 grain bullets and cycle with every single one. Not to mention the selection of bullet weights.

But single shots is where it really shines. I use very fast pistol powders and with my silencer it is magical. I call it my slingshot load because it is quieter than a slingshot. When at the range I wait for a lull then I launch one and ring steel. All the other shooters start looking around trying to figure out why the steel target range without a shot being fired. Most people I let shoot think there was a misfire because all you hear most times is the hammer fall on my Encore.

Don't own a .300 Blk currently but do plan to put one together configured as a SBR because I think it is a great option for close quarters. That Nucleus pistol is damn near perfect :cool: (I'd do the SBR tho)


But, touting it as a viable, even mid-size game hunting round doesn't pass muster.

With around 1K ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards- roughly bare minimum for whitetails- and dropping quickly beyond; might be OK if it's a dense brush type environment where it's all under 100 yards but not a serious contender for this application IMHO. It doesn't have anything close to the 1500 ft/lbs needed for elk- even at the muzzle.

No free rides anywhere in this game.
Hot rounds = increased throat erosion and shortened barrel life.
Overbore = the same...
Boiler room matters. Case capacity = more powder= bigger, faster boolits. This = more energy on target.
Sure, some cartridge designs are more efficient than others but physics always rules. Just ain't enough case capacity to push bullets of the weight needed for that application.

Nice work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly

It may not be great at too many things but name another caliber capable of what the 300 blackout is. Quiet subsonic rounds and 500+ yard capable rounds out of the same gun and magazine without any adjustment. If I hunted I could take 00 buck and a super lightweight load of powder to take squirrels or use full power loads to kill most anything in North America. Granted it isn't going to kill an elk at 500 yards but people have killed elk with it. What makes it great isn't that it can do any one of those things you mention but it can do all of them. It is hard to find a compromise that is as useful as the 300 Blackout. Name a semi auto that can shoot 75 grain to 280 grain bullets and cycle with every single one. Not to mention the selection of bullet weights.

But single shots is where it really shines. I use very fast pistol powders and with my silencer it is magical. I call it my slingshot load because it is quieter than a slingshot. When at the range I wait for a lull then I launch one and ring steel. All the other shooters start looking around trying to figure out why the steel target range without a shot being fired. Most people I let shoot think there was a misfire because all you hear most times is the hammer fall on my Encore.

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Oh I’m not disputing what you are saying, for someone like you interested in it. Although I do agree with topnpr....no way would I call it an “ethical” medium-large game cartridge. It carries about the same power as 7.62x39. And yes, it has a wide variety of bullets to choose...but half of them aren’t going to be all that accurate. Don’t tell me it’s going to shoot 110gr ballistic tips, 220gr btph and heavier 265gr hard casts ALL sub MOA. (No such thing as a magic bullet JFK conspiracy theorists!LOL)

For your purpose I think it’s great. And anyone who likes it, I encourage to reload & push it. Me... I’ll keep my 5.56 that eats it for breakfast, lunch & dinner!

Is anyone offering loaded ammo with cast lead bullets?

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Originally Posted by mattri

Is anyone offering loaded ammo with cast lead bullets?

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https://dallasreloads.com/product/24...ard-cast-rnfp/ Probably one or two more of these small companies selling it. Not going to find hardcast loads in the well known ammunition suppliers. Best bet (and cheapest by far), is to load your own. There are a host of bullet suppliers for .308 hardcast pills.

Good call, thanks.

Seems like hardcast would be ok but wouldn't a softer lead be better at such low speeds?

https://i.postimg.cc/jCSyzrXh/20220421-205213-3.jpg

Well it took a while but here we are ;)

Good stuff mattri. Yeah, that was indeed awhile; 2019 we were discussing it. Quite a bit has happened in the 300aac world. And now it’s pushed aside for yet another AR round looking to overthrow 223. The 6mmARC, LOL! It’s good you stuck to your original game plan.

Thanks Dave. I looked at a number of different rounds, many of which have their own strengths for sure. The things that kept me coming back to the BO were component availability, load data for sub and super loads, the ability to shoot subs and ballistics adequate for nice light "stalking rifle" type build. Hope to do some shillouette type shooting with it as well. So far we have:

200 action T&T by SSS
Shilen select match 18" 1:7
Factory 200 stock pillar bedded
Vortex PST 2.5-10 EBR-1 mil/mil

Nothing too crazy hopefully it comes together well.

https://i.postimg.cc/zy0rbHDZ/001.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/47Tkj6Bc/002.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/c6sPY4jd/003.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/hJc1whVj/004.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/HrCwcjZ2/005.jpg

Very cool bud! Ya know, it never fails… no matter what it is; I have such a deep appreciation for DIY builds. The anticipation through a thread. Collecting the parts. Showing updates, & the BUILD. Then finally the finished product. Thank you for sharing mattri. Looking forward to hearing how it performs & how you like it. Slick little brush gun.

Thanks Dave- hope to get out tomorrow to do some initial sighting and barrel break in. Will just be cheap factory fodder but hopefully the overall impression is good. Will sure to post results.

1st range session went well. Rifle handled well, like how the various parts work together, think the scope and reticle are a good fit. Barrel cleaned up well, not a lot of copper and it came out easily enough. Accuracy with the cheap factory ammo wasn't amazing- around and inch @100 but didn't really expect miracles.

Look forward to load development.

Nice.. yeah, it’s like any other. Not going to memorable groups until you reload it. Glad you’re enjoying mattri.

https://i.postimg.cc/0rZvs5rb/20220522-073132.jpg

150gr Speer over CFEBLK @ 200 yards. Nothing to brag about but at least headed in the right direction.

https://i.postimg.cc/K4tVFnN2/20220604-154644.jpg

Typical group from the range session today with the 135 FTX. It's probably me having a hard time steering such a small, light rifle but have struggled to break .5 even at 100, groups today were in the .6s.

Velocity wasn't what the load data suggested, it seems that this barrel is in fact on the slow side- not the end of the world just need to calibrate accordingly.

Will have to run the #s but for now it seems it may be almosta wash between the 150gr Speers and the 135gr FTX.

Hence the joy of working up a load.;)

True Dave- its a process of elimination but a fun one.

Accuracy with the 135s wasn't really any better than the 150s and the velocity wasn't there even with compressed loads. After putting the numbers through a ballistics calculator it looks like the 150s make more sense so I will focus on them. Going to try casting as well, prob start with the 170gr Lee mould.

You know mattri, I have a close friend in AZ. He had his Win model 70 built by a known Smith. Had it chambered in 6.5-06 AI. The first reloads he rolled did a clover leaf on the first outing. “Wow.. lucky!”, he though. So he tried a several other bullets, powders, etc., & pretty much everything he loaded was doing or near a clover leaf. No load work up at all and instant accuracy!

He put it away in his gun room & RARELY shoots it. No fun for him.

Delete

What part of AZ? I was in Prescott for a while.

My first ever wildcat was a 20 Practical and fell into an accurate load right off the bat- 39gr Blitzkings at a crazy velocity. That thing was a laser out to 400 yards and then the wind just blew it around too much. Explosive on prairie dogs and downright boring inside of that 400 yard window.

Part of the point in this build is to have a light, accurate "walking rifle" that handles quickly and can be shot offhand. To that end 1 MOA accuracy off a bench is realistically more than adequate for my sub par offhand skills. I'd love to find a medium load with a cast bullet but even if I stick with the Speers should be g2g.

I lived in Tucson. My friend has 15 acres just outside Benson. I like it there…. Quiet.

Very cool.

Plan for now is to keep the 150 Speer load as a default, start working with the cast 170gr and hope to find an accurate load for target work and eventually move into subs with either some 190 sub x or cast bullets.

Maybe down the road for a short course score rifle, but a Whisper may lend itself to
compete with a 30BR. Get some bullets from Bart Sauter, And a 18" twist 4 groove
barrel.

Got some 170gt bullets cast, only tried one load so far but pretty happy with the accuracy. Four shots at 100 yards right at an inch, if I hadn't pulled the one high would be right at .5"
https://i.postimg.cc/ZWf5p6LS/20220617-151419.jpg

Very nice mattri! I like it brother. Nice “Chain-Link” group.

Thanks Dave, really hate to ruin a group like that but can't say I'm not used to it :black_eyed:
Wanted to stick with the factory stock as it is pretty light and nimble, fairly well suited for offhand shooting but may try a Hogue. Their stock handles well and the full al block really improves stiffness.
Also ordered a 230gr mould for some subs.

Keep us posted. I've been on the fence about an AR cause I can't decide on a cartridge. Most people I have seen have not had that good a luck with the BO, especially cast.

I shoot mostly cast in my .308 and have a lot of fun shooting soda cans at longer ranges.

Phoenix is where I grew up. When I left in 1971 Phoenix had a population of 600,000. Miles between Peoria and Glendale. Fountain Hills was a mobile home office and that stupid fountain in the middle of the desert. Used to visit my mom there until she passed a few years ago. Don't miss it at all :)

Ha! I dated a gal from fountain hills in the mid 90s- looked a little different then- can't imagine now.

It seems the 300BO gets a bad rap and I think that has more to do with end users then the cartridge itself.

I don't get into the military or "tactical" aspects of the cartridge- they mean nothing to me. It is an interesting platform to do with as one sees fit.

Staying in the supersonic world for now-

With basic load work up a 150gr Speer is consistantly sub moa @ 200 yards in this rifle. Shooting farther than that with this cartridge could be very interesting but may not be super practical.

The 170gr cast bullet has proven to be accurate, moa to 100 at least.

Further testing with 15 and 16gr of CFEBLK netted 1430 and 1510fps respectively. Accuracy held with the 15gr load but opened up to 1.5 moa with the 16.

More testing seems moot for 2 reasons-

1) if one were looking for an effective hunting load using cast bullets, no leading and effective terminal effects with a flat noe bullet this seems adequate.

2) That round will be single fed- there is no way to make this bullet feed in this rifle.

Not the end of the world but having tried multiple configurations of multiple dummy rounds this bullet flat will not feed from the Savage internal mag.

I’m very honestly not a fan of 300aac. Save for being an excellent SUB-sonic round, I believe 223 is a much more versatile cartridge. The 300aac is almost a mirror image of the 300 Whisper, which was a failure. Nothing new.

However, that is me. The more important thing is that I am a huge fan of DIY’ers building their own rifle, and loading their own ammunition; Regardless of caliber/cartridge. Each of us chamber our rifles as we see fit and that’s all that matters. I don’t have to be a fan of a certain cartridge, to like ones project & speak with them about said project. I’m more an about the “Doing”, rather than the “outcome”. Although the outcome certainly cannot be be argued here. :redface-new:

Got out to the range this morning to try some new subsonic loads. Have been working mostly with cast bullets for the subs without a ton of luck- think that has more to do with my casting abilies than anything- so today tried some Hornady 190gr Sub-x bullets over CFEBLK for 1020fps, nice stable load does ok accuracy wise @100
https://i.postimg.cc/HrGrX4Cj/20220806-081059.jpg

Still sticking with the Speer 150s for a super load, this was at 300, wind was obviously a bigger factor:cool:
https://i.postimg.cc/K1yYRGnM/20220806-085357.jpg

Happy with the round and the build so far- will definitely keep working on some cast loads, may look into powder coating etc.