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I have a box of Federal Gold Medal Match p/n GM308M, 168 SMK ammo that shot very well. Looking online I see Federal Gold Medal, same part number but the word Match is nowhere on the box. Instead, it lists Sierra MatchKing. Why the change? Is it no longer considered "match" ammo?
And it is no longer IMR 4064.
Bummer. I tried FGMM in 168 smks years ago and was thoroughly impressed. So much so that if I'd of had deep pockets I'd of purchased a case of 1000. Course I don't have deep pockets so I've had to roll my own with varget as opposed to 4061. I wonder why they changed propellant
Eddie, I know you found a good load for yours because you go long in the desert. Berger 185s can do well at the longer ranges too if you are not happy with the 168's or 175's.
Personally, I would not worry much about what is on the box and start measuring if there is any change in accuracy.
The bullet is still the same - Sierra Match King.
I wasn't aware that they changed from IMR4064 powder, but I haven't been using factory ammo for years.
Anyone know what Federal chose to use after the change in powder?
As I remember from years ago, they also changed powders once before, I think when they changed from the buff and blue box to the maroon and gold box.
It didn't seem to make any difference in the measured accuracy then and if they are still committed to being the 'gold standard' for .308 ammo, they would be equally diligent.
Perhaps they changed from IMR4064 to a powder with less temperature sensitivity, like H4895, Varget, or IMR4166. That would be a very positive step.
From my reloads, those three powders perform very accurately in my .308s.
LOL. Personally I would too.Quote:
Personally, I would not worry much about what is on the box and start measuring if there is any change in accuracy.
If it still shoots as well, or better, they can call it Federal Tin Can for all I care...
^^^^^THIS^^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by celltech
My brother bought a used Savage 111FYAK youth rifle in .270 that puts 130gr Federal Power Shock, plain blue box and the cheapest thing in the ammo case at Wal mart, into one ragged hole at 100 yards all day long. If I had to shoot factory stuff it sure wouldn't hurt my feelings if it was $11 a box on sale and shot like that.
Different rifles prefer different loads/components no matter what the box says.
I have an old 116 30-06 that shoots Sierra game kings way better than the Sierra match kings. While working on another project I talked to a Tech at Sierra Bullets about it he told me that it was not that unusual.
I'm content with the 168smk and varget but not so with the 175SMK and 4064 for distance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
The change is likely because they're now also offering Gold Medal ammo with Berger bullets, so rather than Saying Gold Medal Match they have gotten more specific and are saying Gold Medal Berger and Gold Medal Sierra Match King.
As for the load (poser and charge) changing, that I have no clue on.
I bought a couple of boxes to use as a benchmark load while I develop some hand loads using Varget and 168 SMK's, Hornaday Match brass and Federal 210M primers. The FGMM shot a 3 round group measuring .22 moa out of my new (to me) Shilen Select Match barrel.
Yet to be determined is whether or not my shoulder can still take the pounding :yield:
- ATK runs Lake City and also owns Federal and it looks like Federal only has the contract to make the match grade sniper ammo for the military below. Meaning Lake City is making their own 168 grain "match" ammo.
- Cartridge, Caliber 7.62mm Special Ball, Long Range, MK 316 MOD 0 (United States): A 175-grain (11.3 g) round specifically designed for long-range sniping consisting of Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point Boat Tail projectiles, Federal Cartridge Company match cartridge cases and Gold Medal Match primers. The Propellant has been verified as IMR 4064 (per NSN 1305-01-567-6944 and Federal Cartridge Company Contract/Order Number N0016408DJN28 and has a charge weight per the specs of 41.745-grain (2.7 g).[28]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=h...e1fa_r.jpg&f=1
The FCC is listed in the Lot
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=h...pid%3D15.1&f=1
What ATK is doing with regards to powder I don't know. I have read several post where the powder is reported to be Reloder 15. The rest of the components are the same. ATK may own federal and Aliant, but they do not own Hodgdon/IMR.
Went from RL-15 to IMR4064 in M118LR after Iraq.
I have 2 lots currently. The older one runs pretty accurate at 2680-2700fps. The newer lot runs 2580-2600 and leaves room for improvement...
Hood,I remember seeing that military ammo data card you posted years ago. That's one of the reasons I decided to go to 4064 with the 175SMK. They were consistant until I ran out of my 8 lbs of 4064. I purchased another 8lbs and my results were not consistent that of which I knew was going to happen. I didn't feel like clocking the new powder and start a new load development with the 175SMK and 4064. I loaded up some 168smk with varget, did a little nip and tuk and hit pay dirt rather quickly. Once I run out of that lot then the process starts all over again. It never ends.
ATK does NOT own Federal nor run Lake City and hasn't for almost 5 years. Vista Outdoor owns Federal and Northrop Grumman purchased Orbital ATK almost a year ago and currently holds the management contract for Lake City.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
Even when Lake City and Federal were owned by the the same parent company, there was very little, if any, cooperation between the two groups. Resources were not shared and neither was engineering or product development.
The world is changing fast and I'm a old fart that refuses to own a smart phone. I'm still waiting for the Pony Express to bring news about the merger.Quote:
Originally Posted by BC98
Acquisition of Orbital ATK approved, company renamed Northrop Grumman Innovation Systems
https://spacenews.com/acquisition-of...ation-systems/
I'm 5 months behind on the merger between ATK and Northrop Grumman that was approved last September.
But you need to read the link below about ATK that is still up and running below.
Orbital ATK and Lake City Army Ammunition Plant: A Proud Heritage of Service
https://news.northropgrumman.com/news/features/orbital-atk-and-lake-city-army-ammunition-plant-a-proud-heritage-of-service
Did you ever notice that Federal 5.56 M193 ammo had a Lake City head stamp............"there was very little, if any, cooperation between the two groups". :nono:
http://www.northwestshootersupply.co.../xm193x350.jpg
https://www.ocabj.net/wordpress/wp-c...01822-1200.jpg
I'm loading up that exact combination (Varget and 169SMK) right now, but am left wondering what is the "little nip and tuk" you speak of? Any hints or specifics you are willing to share?Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiesindian
44.5gr varget, CCI 200, 168smk, LC neck turned,annealed brass, 0.30 off the lands, 24" 1/10 tube going 2800fps @ 4200ft elevation. Nip and tuk I speak of is I found another accuracy node at just a tad under 2700fps but more consistent going 2800. Another nip and tuk is I usually use fire formed brass but opted to go small base,full length resized and found out the harmonics ring just right for this rig compared to fire formed. I was gonna call it guits on 308 because of my love affair with the 6.5 but low and behold I hit pay dirt. It never ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas10
Good information! And it gives me more to look at for possible fine tuning. My initial load was 168 ELD-M's while waiting for SMKs to arrive. I found 43.0 Varget shot a ragged 4 shot hole at 100 yds, but again, it's the nut behind the bolt that is the biggest factor. I'm shooting at a public range, off a bi-pod that's not the best, no proper squeeze bag and a far less than stellar scope.
In my limited experience I've come to the following conclusion:
Shooting MOA is so easy a cave man could do it.
Shooting 1/2 MOA takes hand loading skills (or at least finding excellent factory ammo) good rifle tuning skills, better rests & bags, decent glass and lots of PRACTICE.
Shooting 1/4 MOA takes excellent hand loading equipment, all the above plus custom barrels and stocks, better than decent glass, and even MORE PRACTICE.
Shooting sub 1/4 MOA takes a commitment to the sport that supersedes almost all other considerations, including a very sizable financial investment, shooting thousands of rounds per year and the BRAINS to analyze and improve your skills.
I'm currently averaging about 1/3 MOA and hope to someday get that down to 1/4 MOA knowing I'll probably get run over by the beer truck about then.
When shooting mid range I found something close to EddiesIndian load. But shooting local 200 yard matches, Varget and 41.2 grains gave me 60Xs every match. 20 inch savage barrel.
Thanks, RH, I'm going to try that. My 44 grain load of Varget produced 2800 fps (900 ft ASL) SD 4, ES 9 but a .7 moa group, again this was with the ELDM. I've tried 42.1 of IMR 4895 and found it extremely accurate but that powder is not as temp stable as Varget.
What was the velocity of your 41.2 grain load?
My guess.......maybe 2600ishQuote:
Originally Posted by Texas10
The link you provided is also dated from Jan 22, 2018 which would have been approx. 6 months prior to the acquisition (not merger) of Orbital ATK. Orbital ATK, as a company, no longer exists and is now Northrop Grumman Innovation Systems. The Lake City management contract transferred to Northrop Grumman, as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
It's Lake City brass because Federal purchases the rounds from Lake City. That's a transaction, not cooperation. Lake City also sells brass to Fiocchi and loaded rounds to Hornady. The link you provided states this, as well. The management contract of the plant allows sales to commercial entities so long as the supply to DOD customers is not affected.
My statement about cooperation comes from experience. I have worked at both ATK and Federal in the past.
For what it's worth....shot some 175 GMM over the weekend to compare. Rifle is a Howa 1500 with 20" barrel. 2539 fps, 9 SD, 27 ES for a 5 shot group that was .75"
Roger thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Texas10
Man I have no idea. That was back a few years and I worked the load up without the benefit of a chrono. Come to think of it I was probably using a 10X SS too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas10
Just got my box from Brownells with two boxes of FGGM 168 match ammo and a box of 168 SMKs to do some load matching.
First things first was I measured the CBTO of the FGGM and found it varied between 2.226 and 2.230 on the several samples I checked and an OAL of 2.800 plus or minus a few thou. I did not check all 40.
Next I set up a dummy cartridge using my FF brass drilled and tapped 6/32 and a 168 SMK from my new shipment loaded and found touch at 2.220 which means in my Shilen match barrel the FGGM is .006 to .010 IN the lands. No wonder is shoots so well!
To confirm, I slid a live FGGM round up the chamber with the bolt out and gave it a firm push. With a cleaning rod down the muzzle, it took a firm push on the rod to dislodge the round confirming the factory load is in the lands in my barrel.
Since I'm developing this load for 300 and under, I'm considering finding a lower and more accurate node. Maybe somewhere around 38 or 39 grains. Any comments on where to start or where that node might be?
26 inch, 10 twist Shilen, 205M's, Varget, Hornaday match brass.
Edit: I pulled down a new FGGM 168 Sierra Match today and to my surprise it had 40.0 grs of "special" powder. I expected to find 42.0 grs IMR 4064 but i guess they don't use that any more. Listed velocity is still 2650 fps.