Savage 260 LRP Accuracy

I know every rifle is different and each shoots differently. I am shooting a 260 LRP unaltered from the factory on bags with a Vortex Viper 6.5 x 20. I have tried a variety of Berger and Sierra bullets in Lapua brass.
The powder I am using is H4350. I started with 0.010 off the lands with both brands of bullets. I have run different powder charges up to 41.0 to 44.0 grains of H4350. The thing is whether with Sierra or Berger I am only getting 0.66 MOA. That is 0.95" outside of group minus 0.260 and divide by 1.04 equals 0.66 moa. I was really hoping I could get under 0.5 moa. The thing that bugs me is that different powder charges and different bullets are giving no discernable difference in accuracy. Do you think I should back off the lands say to 0.020? The reason I started with 0.010 and H4350 is that most people say they use H4350 and find best accuracy somewhere near the lands. Should I try H4831 or stick with H4350? Should I start with magazine COAL and work towards the lands or just back up from 0.010? I value any suggestions. Maybe I am expecting too much but I have seen my son's Savage .308 shoot into 0.40 multiple times and that gun was a inexpensive savage with a upgraded stock. I know it could be the shooter but I am getting 0.25 moa with my 22-250 Savage/Shilen. I am sure I can shoot the 260 just as well. I'm just thinking for the cost of the LRP it should shoot >.5

Here is the other thing. There are lots of different opinions on barrel cleaning. Some say clean, some say only clean carbon. I usually never shoot more than 20 rounds without cleaning excluding a few fouling shots. I have never been sure how clean is clean enough so I got a lyman borecam. I have cleaned using JB bore paste, Montana extreme and Sweets 7.62. I am not seeing any blue on my patches so whatever it is I am seeing must not be copper. I have noticed a copper colored streak or two in the last few inches of the bore. Here is a picture.Attachment 5636
This wont come out with anything and I have no idea how much copper is significant.

How many rounds does the barrel have? Some Savage rifles take close to 200 rounds to "settle."

How many rounds do you shoot between cleaning? You could be cleaning too much. Many Savage shooters believe their rifle shoots better when it's dirty. Try going 50 or even a 100 rounds between cleaning. I generally don't clean unless accuracy gets bad or I'm done with the rifle for the season.

Lastly, before you change powder or seating depth, try a different brand of primer. If you get the same result then start changing one variable at a time.

First, Savage says their varmint/target rifles are good for 1MOA or less. My BVSS is one of those at the 1MOA mark, but, it is getting better. FWIW, my cheap Axis started at just over 1MOA as well and is now closer to .5MOA. It can be frustrating to buy an expensive rifle and then get same accuracy as the cheap ones. I would suspect that all of the Savage barrels are made basically the same way, the only difference being slightly better bore dimension tolerances and straightness. You don't have a Shilen barrel from the factory.

The BVSS, tor the first 50 or so rounds, I got pretty bad copper fouling. I removed it with KG12. I then applied some Iosso paste to the throat. Next time out much less copper. Removed it. After that very little copper build up. Yes, there is still some on the lands but it doesn't get any worse so I am near the 'stable' point. Cleaning is a personal thing. My shooting sessions are 40 to 100rnds. I usually clean every other shooting session.

Savage has a break in procedure on the web site in the FAQ section.

FWIW, it has made me regret my purchase a bit. I could have purchased a much less expensive rifle, like a 12FV, added a Shilen barrel and target stock and have a much better shooting rifle out of the box.

PS what you see in the muzzle is copper. I had the same problem with Sweet's and a few other copper cleaners not getting it out, even after an overnight soaking. The KG12 removed it easily.

Well I am using CCI Benchrest primers but have plenty of Winchester’s I can try. The one thing I have not tried is flat base bullets. The gun is approaching 200 rounds and the barrel does look pretty rough I guess because of the button rifling. I have been cleaning after every 20 rounds excluding 2 or 3 fouling shots. But still as you point out there is copper in the barrel. I’ve tried everything except KG12 so may as well try that. Then I will try 130 berger AR hybrid at 0.010 and 43.5 grains H4350. I guess the barrel is still not settled in yet. As pointed out it does meet Savage accuracy requirements. That is fine for a hunting rifle but this beast is a dedicated target gun. Can’t imagine trying to hunt with it. Based on my experience thus far a person would be better off to get a cheap savage and put a custom barrel on it and a stock of course. I have a stock 10FP that has always shot about the same as the LRP. I will keep trying the LRP to see if it improves but if not since it is a target action and trigger and a pretty good stock I guess a large shank Shilen would be justified. I was hoping to get the 260 under 0.5 and let it be and convert the 308 to 6br. We will see.

Try the KG12. It mentions in the instructions to apply until you can't see the copper at the muzzle. I applied a few more times after that just to be sure. Then try some J&B or Iosso bore paste. I did a couple of times full length and then a few more times in the throat only. It has helped but I am still not at the 1/2MOA point. Close to 400rnds now.

One other thing. My .223 spoiled me. It shoots really well with a variety of loads. I've even had loads that the powder charge varied by .5gn and they still shot less than MOA. A very forgiving cartridge. In comparison the .308 has been very picky. It will shoot good at one powder level, but, add or drop half a grain and the groups open up dramatically.

Thanks Charlie B. It would appear we are experiencing similar problems. I ordered the KG12 last nite and I already have JB. Read an interesting article on “range 365” by a gunsmith who claims the majority of people coming into his shop with guns that won’t hold accuracy are actually fouled even though the customer claims they have cleaned them. He says to remove the fouling requires aggressive cleaning and that in come cases fouling is layered. Carbon, copper, and more copper concealed by more carbon. Says sometimes cleaning requires repeated carbon removal followed by copper removal. He sees this quite often. A lot of scrubbing and a lot of patience are required to remove the layers. He actually says he uses bronze bore brushes even though they are attacked by copper solvent and he also uses JB diluted with Kroil after giving a good long soak with just Kroil only as it penetrates and loosens. Then cleans out residue with a jag of acetone to remove all solvents and the repeats application of copper
solvent with nickel or plastic jag to look for any trace of blue. If blue is indicated then repeats the whole thing. In a rough barrel the fouling actually prevents the barrel from settling in as repeated shots are contacting the fouling already laid down rather than polishing the bore.
Then again on good barrels he says they clean quickly and easily especially custom hand lapped.
Im going to apply acetone followed by KG12, followed by acetone followed by carbon remover followed by acetone etc then check the bore
with borescope or sweets 7.62 for blue. He says some factory barrels leave the factory rough. If this doesn’t do the trick before I toss the barrel I will try Tubbs final finish as the last resort. I can say the savage barrel looks rough with the borecam while the Shilen is really clean and very smooth.
https://www.range365.com/dirty-littl...t-gun-cleaning

While it certainly can, and does happen- expecting better consistency/accuracy than what you're currently getting from a factory rifle is unrealistic.

I would check receiver fitment to the v-block to be sure it's not being stressed, it may be that skim-bedding might help- but clearly, the rifle shoots well.

You would need to borescope the barrel to know, but some level of copper fouling is usually beneficial in a factory barrel as there's typically chatter or other machining imperfections in the leade. Laying down and keeping a "baseline" of copper in barrels that need it is beneficial- not detrimental- to accuracy. Stripping every bit out often means more foulers are needed to restore accuracy.

I have some rifles where it doesn't matter- I use Wipe-Out at every cleaning and strip it all out and it doesn't affect accuracy. I have other where I don't clean at all for 600 or more rounds- or until I see a degradation in accuracy.

My suggestion is to forget cleaning- copper and carbon- for 100 rounds and see what you get then. Stripping the barrel to bare metal every 20 rounds may be preventing attaining slightly better consistency even though you might think that's counterintuitive.

It is worth a try. Didn't work for mine. I elected to smooth out those rough spots as it would not settle, just got worse. Started at 1MOA groups. When fouled they grew to 3 or 4MOA. Cleaned of all fouling and they went back to MOA. Now after some more shooting it is down a bit below MOA.

Do a search for the Berger seating test. Your .010 is a good start, work your way down. The Berger test will probably find a better spot than where you are. Then fine tune in .003 increments up & down from there.
After you have found the optimum seating then do a OCW test
in .3 grain increments starting low and working up to find your sweet spots (flat spots in velocity). Use the middle of these nodes for your charge weight.
You may have to tweak the seating a little after you settle on the charge weight.
My guess is you will find the grouping that you are looking for. Your .66 moa isn't bad for no load or seating work up. You can probably drop that in half with some luck.

I think the berger seating test is primarily for VLD secant ogives.
But I suppose I could give it a try with hybrids.
010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

That seems like huge span. Little concerned about .010 jam into lands because of pressure spikes. Plus I can see touching the lands but if you jam into the lands how do you know the bullet won’t set back into the case mouth?

Seating tests like Berger's work for every type & brand. You are correct their jumps are huge. I have done similar modified tests with .010 increments. Then refining down to .005 and .003 at the final. You may find more than one seating node.
Also because all my loads are for hunting I do not jam and start all tests at .010 off the lands. You are correct about pressures & jamming, even .005 off the lands can produce unpredictable results (at least in my experience).
Also I don't shoot 6 at each level usually 3. But I do shoot round robin, when you get back to the same seat distance you see if it falls back into the same group.
You will also see the "scatter nodes".
As you fine tune you will see the POI remain close when the increments are down in the .003-.005 range. There most likely be one spot plus or minus .003 that is best.
It's worth the time & effort to find best seating.
Good luck,
Randy

Thanks Randy! I will try a different primer where I am but I will be very surprised if a primer makes the difference but they say it can. Then I will do a seating test maybe between yours and Berger say in .020 increments beginning at .020 since I already have .010.

It might be real easy to miss the sweet spot totally with .020 increments. Then you will be left chasing your tail looking for something else.
My .02

I know it is not a 260, but my 6.5 Creedmoor LRP shoots under 1/2 inch groups loaded .030 off the lands. If you haven't tried seating depth, I would try that first. Looks like pretty good advice already, just throwing my 2c in.

My plan is to use KG12 to remove copper. Then when weather allows I will proceed with the seating depth tests. I did try seating tests with berger vld. The 140 vld seemed best at .015 but I admit I never tried it over the range suggested by berger only out to 040 off lands. I have a question for a Savage shooter. When I examine the bore there are inconsistent but fairly repeatable markings that run around the barrel at right angles to the lands and grooves. Same way in my 308. On my Shilen swap the lands and grooves are clean and totally free from the tool marks in the Savage barrels. Are these marks the result of chattering of the button when rifling was bored? Can such tool marks affect accuracy?

RMKEY,

You are correct... You are seeing the tool marks inside the Savage Barrel. They are just a decent barrel most of the time, but will still shoot 1 MOA even with all the tool marks. Your Shilen (and my CBI) are a much better barrel, and all of them are hand lapped to get rid of all the tool marks and rough spots in the barrel. that's one of the differences between a savage barrel and a "Match" barrel. It's also why the CBI and Shilen barrels (I would presume) don't have the copper fouling issues that standard barrels do.

Powder: I use H4895.
Copper cleaner: I use Boretech Copper cleaner. I brush it in with an oversize (7mm) nylon brush. Let it sit an hour, then clean it out. You might have to do that a couple of times.
Bullet seating depth: mag length, based on bullet published length. However, my rifle likes Bergers off the lands 30 thou. I didn't try Bergers at mag length. I use Hornady 147 ELD-M now.
My rifle is also a .260 Rem: best 5-shot of 0.17", best 10-shot of 0.56".
If you can't get your barrel diamond-lapped, use Tubb Final Finish kit, complete process. By my estimation, it's about as good as hand lapping.

Stop looking down a factory barrel with a bore scope!
i know a guy his rifle shot great, then he got a bore scope after that the rifle never was any good.
in addition I would recommend Bore tech Eliminator for copper and C-4 for carbon, why not just order a Criterion pre fit chambered in a 6 Norma?

I have used bore tech, Montana Extreme, Sweets and JB bore paste with Kroil. I have used recommended cleaning methods. Still you can see from the above picture there is still copper in the barrel. I’m going to use degreaser and KG12 next. Then I am going to use Tubbs recommendation firing the #3 and 4 lapping bullets from his kit. His # 5 bullets are boron nitrided which is what I routinely shoot anyway.
Tubbs does not recommend using the #1 and 2 lapping bullets unless the rifle is shooting worse than Mfg specifies. You can see from Jim K’s post above he is getting incredible accuracy. All I am after is 0.5 moa with 3 shots. I think I was unlucky and got a barrel on which the button was chattering excessively. If the barrel doesn’t get any better with another couple hundred rounds it will be time to learn to replace it. I’ll get a barrel vice and action wrench. I had a gunsmith do my 22-250 and he had a devil of a time getting the old barrel off which is why I am exhausting every possibility for the factory barrel first. I would replace it with a select match Shilen from Northland in 260. I already have a 10FP 308 I plan to convert to 6 br.

The magic trick to aid in getting the barrel off is the heating torch. Warm the barrel nut up before you start putting pressure on the nut. Most of the barrel nuts are a bugger to try and get off. Especially the smooth nut that they put on my 111.

With the Barrel vise and action wrench, you shouldn't have too much of a problem. If it's the smooth nut, I used a big pipe wrench to get it off and then just ordered a new notched nut from NSS when I ordered my 260 CBI.

Nice choice in caliber!!

Thanks Sage Rat Shooter! I won’t forget. Makes sense if you can heat but without heating the barrel it will expand slightly. All my guns have the square notched but.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rmkey

Thanks Sage Rat Shooter! I won’t forget. Makes sense if you can heat but without heating the barrel it will expand slightly. All my guns have the square notched but.

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That's pretty much it... The heating not only expands the nut a bit, but it also loosens up any "gunk" that might have gotten into the threads when they put the barrel on at the factory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rmkey

Thanks Randy! I will try a different primer where I am but I will be very surprised if a primer makes the difference but they say it can. Then I will do a seating test maybe between yours and Berger say in .020 increments beginning at .020 since I already have .010.

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The primer can make a difference, especially when trying to get below 1/2MOA. Many things can affect groups when at that level. Even reloading setups, like the sizing die and its setting and case lengths, case neck thicknesses, etc, etc. Make sure everything is the same every time you do it. Even how you clean the bore and how many rounds you use for fouling shots.

I knew one benchrest shooter who would end up 'testing' each case. He would note where each shot went and would pick the cases that shot the smallest groups. Meticulous attention to detail. His goal was 0.2" 10 round groups. Truly a one hole target. He would use the same ten cases as long as he could.

He also ended up shooting cast bullets because it was more of a challenge to him. I learned about fire lapping from him as well. This was back in the 80's. We spent a lot of time making up specific lead alloys and heat treating techniques for him to try.

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Thanks Charlie B. Your right about all of that. I have read Zediker’s book and Secrets of the Houston Warehouse. It’s one thing to read another to put into practice. I record all the brass and load parameters. I have all the tools but find it isn’t necessary to neck turn Lapua but I do true up Winchester and Hornady. If I get to an accuracy node with seating and charge I will also try brands of primers. I have WLR, CCI br and Remington on hand. Your friend is a true Benchrest shooter at 10 shot .2 moa. I doubt I could shoot that well even with a Benchrest setup. 3 shots possibly -not 10. I would love to need the challenge of cast bullets as for now the best jacketed are giving me fits in the 260 but I am not done still a few more things to try before going to custom. As stated earlier I am at .65 if I can get it to .5 I will be satisfied and move on to a 6 br custom on another rifle. Do you think primers could make enough difference to show up at .65?

It might. I have found that CCI BR primers are the best in my .308. I use Rem BR primers in my .223 that is a 1/2MOA rifle. I cannot shoot better than 1/2 MOA so don't know about getting below that.

Yep, seems the benchrest guys are never happy with a group of any size :)

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rmkey,

I've measured the group size averages with my 6.5mm loads based upon primers and brass over 1198 measured groups and have found that primers make a difference.

Small Rifle Primers: (Lapua Brass)
CCI BR-4 - best accuracy
CCI 400 - 10.6% larger average group size at 100 yards.
Fed 205M - 47.9 larger average group size at 100 yards.

Large Rifle Primers: (Norma and Hornady Brass - 0.001 difference in average between the two brass types - no measurable difference due to brass)
Fed 210M - 20.6% larger average group size at 100 yards.

Well I have done the Tubbs procedure but did not use the courser bullets. Most of the tool marks are gone. Tubbs number 5 bullets are actually 140 SMK treated with HBN which is what I treat my bullets with anyway. The KG12 removed all traces of copper. Have not had chance to resume group testing yet but when I do I will use 130 Berger Hybrids. After listening to Berger the seating depth is not critical as they are designed to shoot well at magazine coal. Guess I will start there and decrease jump in increments. If I can average 0.5 moa I will leave the barrel alone.

Duh. Checked the action screws. Might have had 2-5 inch lbs torque. Would have thought they would have been torqued properly at the factory. Torqued to 30 lbs. posted so someone buying a new gun will be sure they are snugged up.

I worked up a load for my son's B-I-L, a new 6.5-284 with accufit stock. First thing I do is pull the stock, factory finger tight....any pillared stock IMHO should be at least 30 in/lbs..put it back to 45 front, 35 rear...1/2" groups right away before developement..
With most pillared stocks those torqued should maintain. The plastic Tupperware stocks are more suseptable to loosening because they bend between the screws at recoil.