Looking for the groups opinions on annealing brass.
Thanks
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Looking for the groups opinions on annealing brass.
Thanks
I anneal all brass for my match grade/expensive brass reloads
260 (Long Range Target Rifle)
284 (Fclass gun)
308 (Hunting/Target)
300 WM (Long Range Hunting)
338 Lapua (Longer Range Hunting and Targets)
If you want consistency in your reloads then you have to anneal. But you have to anneal correctly. Correct temperature is a must and you must be consistent in every case. Or your wasting your time and possibly destroying brass.
It all depends what your idea of accuracy is as well. A hunting rifle for shorter range hunting/walking gun etc I would do every few reloads just to keep the brass necks from splitting. Competition brass/match brass I anneal every firing. Trying to keep as consistent as possible. But these are rifles that can hold 1/4 - 1/2 MOA accuracy.
Properly annealed brass = consistent neck tension (very important when running very little tension on your load)
Consistant neck tension = better SD and ES
Better SD and ES = Less vertical dispersion at 1000 Yards +
Which equates to better hit averages, smaller groups and higher scores.
I use a Vertex Bench Source. Anneal every firing. Takes 3-4 seconds per case depending on case thickness
definitely agree on above statements!!
22-250AI
260 Rem
270Gibbs
7mm-08
308
300WM
338LM
Well im 83 years old, and until a few years ago never annealed a case in my life.
Although ive never been interested in serious competition, ive been very close friends with quite a few Williamsport 1000 yd shooters from the very early days of that club. George Stephanis was the first shooter inducted into the hall of fame there, and happens to be my every day hunting companion also, and he dosent anneal his cases. Lowell Amond is another very old close friend and although he no longer competes, is the only shooter who has ever won the aggregate award there 2 times. He also has never annealed a case. The late Earl Chronister was another good friend/hunting companion, who set a 10 shot world group record in the mid 80s of 3 and 3/4 inches with a full size 30x378 and he never annealed either. Frank Weber, the oldest man there still competeing, has won several world records without annealing.
im not sure of what he does now with his 6mm Dasher, but whatever it is his son Scott also a competitor there is doing it for him. Both are good friends who have a camp near ours for long range hunting. I wont say it dosent help with accuracy because im not sure, but the fact is most are doing it because others are, and any straw that floats by needs to be grabbed onto in the competitive world they live in. Look, guys will lay on the ground in mud or snow and shoot from a rinky dink setup to make a long shot. But the brass has to be annealed for best accuracy? Follow the results of the 1000 yd shoots, star today, also ran tomorrow from the same guy, same gun, same load, where's the consistency there?
There are many records set with brass that is annealed/not annealed/virgin/once fired etc etc. Best thing to do is decide what you want to get out of it. I’ve tested the annealed vs not and achieved more consistent results by doing it so I do it. Records are constantly being broken in every discipline of shooting. This year I believe the 1,000 yard bench rest record was broken by Mike Wilson. I also know the 1,000 yard fclass record was broke at nationals as well. If you decide what discipline your leaning towards the best thing to do is start shooting it and learn what the other successful competitors are doing. As stated above the annealing isn’t a sure thing when it comes to accuracy. Just another thing you can do to gain little benefits, be it accuracy/case life etc.
In my opinion if your starting out in competition just go shoot and learn from the guys that do it. If your looking to anneal for a hobby to make yourself better (which is how I started) then do your homework and learn as you do it. If you have a factory rifle that shoots 1 MOA then annealing right away is a mute point in my opinion. But if your shooting a reliably accurate gun (holds 1/2 MOA or better) then your ready to start learning annealing. Annealing won’t turn a 1 MOA gun into a 1/2 MOA gun. It will help keep your 1/2 MOA loads shooting 1/2 MOA out of that 1/2 MOA gun tho.
Annealing is an advanced reloading technique as far as I’m concerned. When you do it your not looking to have a gun that shoots 10” of vertical at 1,000 Yards. Your trying to keep the 1 or 2 rounds that stray from the rest into a tighter group. Say 5-7” of vertical and 1 or 2 rounds that open to 10. You correct this because 1 or 2 rounds that high are the difference between winning and watching from 10th place.
Now if your just wanting to extend brass life (338 LM is $3.00 just for a piece of brass, other rifles cost even more) then have at it. Or if you want to do it as a hobby then have at it.
The few matches I’ve competed in for fclass we’ve shot 100 rounds for score, plus sighters. That’s 5- 20 round sets for score. So let’s say you need 120 reliable rounds. That’s a lot of brass to prep for competition. So you take every advantage you can to make sure there the best they can be. Like I said, 1 or 2 bad rounds and you may as well put your rifle away.
A chronograph is a good tool to use while you anneal as well. My results from my 308 went from ES of 38 FPS down to ES of 20 FPS. It cut the vertical on the group in half. Test was done at 300 yards. All 10 pieces of brass were fired the same amount of times. 4 or 5 if I remember correctly.
Keep in mind some people sort every component of there reloaded rounds before loading. The length of surface area of the bullets contacting the lands are measured, the charges aren’t thrown there measured to the tenth or hundredth of a grain and corrected with a pair of tweezers. They buy thousands of bullets, hundreds of brass and powder in 8 lbs jugs (and several at a time). Every component is from the same lot. Some even load ahead of time, then give the bullet a final seat in the case to release the grip from the case neck on the bullet caused by the round sitting over time (if you believe in this). The cases are inspected, sorted, neck turned, sized etc etc and discarded if there are any doubts about its performance. Tons of things done to achieve the best accuracy they can. If you intend to compete with them you will need to do some as well. A blind squirrel can find a nut in a local competition with your buddies. Step up to the big comps and there’s a lot of squirrels and very few that are vision impaired if you catch my drift
If your talking competition then talk to competitors who do well. Many I’ve ran into are more than happy to share there experiences and trial/error processes they’ve done along the way. Like I said, annealing is advanced as long as you do it correctly. If your not doing several of the things in the above paragraph then other factors are likely to hamper the results anyways.
All that said you prolly just want to do it as a hobby which is cool by all means and a great learning experience. Good luck in your annealing quest
You will know if you need to anneal. At first the bullet will seat like you are putting it in butter then it will begin to take more effort. Once that effort increases, pressure starts to increase. The brass becomes "spring like" and will not size as easily having to increase handle force.
Hunters will rarely use their brass enough to make brass harden and then will buy new brass. Guys who wear out barrel use brass up. 70 rounds a weekend plus practice and rechecking loads as the throat moves. So pay attention to how much effort it takes to size brass and seat a bullet.
If you want to compete in Fclass or XTC or PRS at any level of success you might as well because everyone who competing against you and is reloading is most likely doing it.
Yobuck, Franks 2010 record at Williamsport in light gun was shot with his Dasher rifle having only one hundred rounds previously fired with it. Most likely whoever fire formed his brass annealed it, and if it was given to him, the maker annealed it. Also, every piece of brass you have ever bought was annealed at the factory.
If you want to know what guys like Frank or his son scott are doing to their brass, Go to accurate shooter and read the main message boards in the forum. It is a forum where serious BR and Fclass competitors hang out.
I buy annealed cases but don't bother with it myself. After eight or ten reloads the primer pockets are getting loose, so I buy more new cases.
Compare the cost of an annealing set-up to the cost of brass and see how many you can get. ;-)
But I am not shooting competition against anyone but myself and 3/4 MOA is all I strive for, and occasionally achieve.
A few years ago ppl annealed brass to extend its life, dont now when accuracy came into play for annealing
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Well I do keep somewhat abrest of whats going on, although im not really all that interested for myself.
Fact is though that the competition has gotten to the point that every small detail must be seriously considered, if as Haf said you wish to be competitive. Control that which you can, because you cant control some things, and you only get so many shots to do it.
But thats not the world most of us live in as recreational shooters either. A close miss on a prairie dog is apt to be more fun than one blown apart. At least for some of us.
I do now anneal some as a way to help brass life, mostly from neck splits. But most of my brass gets chucked for primer pockets which cant be fixed with annealing. For our purpose I don't feel any improved accuracy is that big of an issue. Tree branches are a far bigger one for us.
And what difference does it make anyway what the issue was, what you do next is the main thing. And what we do next is send another round over there right now.
Look if the very best shooters were also always the most successful at long range hunting, that would be something to seriously consider.
But the fact is that isn't the case at all, and the Weber family is but one prime example of that.
I do it for both. Obviously I want good brass life due to the prep that goes into it. But mainly do it for accuracy in the comp guns. Your brass gets work hardened over time and this causes spring back. If you have different amounts of firings on cases this gets to be even more of an issue. If I’m running .0015 neck tension I want to make sure all are the same. You can feel while seating the bullet whether your necks are consistent or notQuote:
Originally Posted by tric3imagery
Annealing is for wildcatters and 99% of competitors who reload and shoot with stiff competition regularly.If this is you.....
Divide up a box of Lapua/ Norma or whatever brass. Don't anneal 50 and anneal 50. Make sure you shoot all of the brass the same number of times. Keep records. Measure each case before and after sizing, take notes. Feel the seating force on both lots. Take notes. Note group sizes after you have found a load. Then you will see for yourself. After 5 loadings come back and show us targets of each lot at 300 plus yards.
Annealez. ..........works like a charm.
Do it. You won't regret it.
Well all my big game hunting guns are wildcats, and I usually don't get 5 loadings from them before the primer pockets are toast. And I wont use super glue like some do for one more firing. After two maybe three at most firings they don't go hunting anymore anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
So if I anneal the case when new, they get chucked before they get done again.
I don't bother with the small cases like the 223s because I frankly don't really care about great groups anyway.
A bigger concern for me is the welding of the bullet to the case that takes place after they sit around unused for a couple years.
I will as a rule reseat them slightly deeper, maybe a full turn on the seating adjustment before they get used, and some sound like a stick being snapped when you do that.
Thats where the real neck tension can take place, and id bet thats the issue more often than the fact the case didn't get annealed, at least with hunters.
I started shooting PRS 4yrs ago and didn't anneal for the first 3 years. I also shot 308, 243Win, and 6 Creed during those time frames. When I ran the 308 and 243 I neck sized only and never fired brass enough times for it to get to stiff to chamber. The 308 barrel was sold with only a couple hundred rounds on it. With the 243 I knew I was only getting about 1500rds match life out of it. Same with the 6 creed, so I'd just buy 500 pieces of brass with each barrel and throw the brass out when I was done with the barrels. Never annealed and was decent enough to be competitive, but not consistent. I noted this especially on the long range stages as I wasn't just missing left or right, but also high and low.
When I switched to the 6.5x47, I also decided I wanted to start annealing. I did a bunch of research and figured the AMP unit was worth the cost in the long run. I anneal every firing since I can do about 10 cases per minute without issue.
What did I find? Annealing coupled with highend reloading practices cut my numbers in half on my chronograph readings. Single digit SD/ES numbers and extremely consistent every firing. I was able to go from a top 10 shooter to a regular top 5 and mostly top 3 shooter. Why? Because I was now only missing left or right due to wind. Wind started to make more sense and I have been able to nail it down much more consistently. That coupled with applying the fundamentals to any position I find myself in.
Do I need to anneal every firing? Probably not.... Will I see a big change if I don't anneal? Maybe not a big change, but at the end of the day I have a process that gets results and I'm 100% satisfied with what I've seen from using the AMP. If you are after the most consistency you can get out of a rifle I'd say annealing is definitely necessary. I have brass that's on it's 3rd barrel I'm still shooting in matches.
Just have to figure out what it's worth to you!
Lonewolf, you are very competitive. You run with an extremely competitive group. What percentage of those top shooters anneal?
Youbuck, If you are loosing primer pockets after three firings. That's why you don't need to anneal, You have a fresh supply of factory annealed ammo. The point I believe you have made is, for the the vast majority of shooters annealing is not necessary. I agree. There is a point and Lonewolf described the perfect scenario, where annealing will help with pressure related inconsistent accuracy. Im not sure if you are prepared to agree to that but your argument against is from a "I know a guy" position. There is no documented evidence either way. I don't know very many BR shooters but I know many of them have adopted habits started b the F-Class guys like weighing each charge to better than .02 gr and annealing where 5 or more years ago they were laughing at guys going to that trouble.
What I have found is there is there are two paths to go by, but in the long run it is like LoneWolf stated;Quote:
Just have to figure out what it's worth to you!
It may well be the difference between 2nd place and 1st place. But it won't be the difference between venison or varmints in the field.
It's NEVER wrong to try for improvement. But there are a LOT of things to get down before annealing that will likely help more. In my very non-competitive shooting pursuits of late.
You can also do it wrong and screw up brass.
I found a separate decapping die, separate neck/shoulder/full resizers (actually a full length but with a set of stepped shell holders for minimal shoulder upset) and a separate expander die helped a lot in my reloading and haven't got to the annealing stage yet. Been at it 41 years. ;-). The less you work the brass the better. Time consuming but I enjoy my time at the reloading bench.
Maybe if I had got in earlier I'd be a bit proponent. When I did shoot competitive it was with a .38 Spl mid-range for PPC and cases lasted forever - I still have some I am reloading after 30 years!
I started annealing to extend the life of my brass, and seen to be getting less vertical dispersion as a result! WINNER!!! The Ten point whitetail couldn't tell the difference....:cool:
Merry christmas, but Robinhood i susspect powder charge has more to do with my primers coming loose than wether or not i anneal.
As for the B R guys learning anything from F class as for accuracy, I think in my old mind the opposite might be true? lol
If you visited a B R match 50 years ago (which I did), all the targets looked alike, the only way to tell the difference was to very carefully measure who the winner was. And then it got worse when 2 guys created the PPC. lol
As for weighing charges, thats another subject, but again more important to the type guys who always put their left sock and shoe on first every time they dress. Hey I hunted with a guy for a few years who always had a large rubber band around each of his sleeve cuffs.
One day I asked him why he did that and his answer spoke volumes as to what type guy he was. (in case I lose a cuff button)
As for long range benchrest, or long range anything for that matter, certainly it requires very good equipment and capable shooters.
But make no mistake, luck plays a very large roll also. There are just too many things the shooter especially when hunting has no control over for it to be otherwise. Like the luck of the draw for what relay you get to shoot, or what the conditions are when you find that buck. These l r b r guys have perfected the best way to get it done. Get 10 shots down range in less than one minit, and then hope they all stuck to the wall. But you need a $1500 front rest if you want to play. Old Earl didn't have one of those when he shot his measly 3 3/4" group back in the 80s. He also used an old Unertle scope. lol. Hey it took almost 14 years for the gods to smile on somebody long enough to best John Voniadas group, and that wasent all that long ago. For me at least, there are more fun ways to waste my time than that.
Fact is the picture many have of what it takes to be successful at long range hunting, is for the most part just in their mind.
You don't need to be the best shooter or even close, you just need to be good at what your doing, and let the young kids handle the shooting part.
Yobuck, What I meant to say was, You will not need to anneal because your brass does not last long enough for the necks to harden. There would be no reason to anneal. If you planned on getting 12 firings out of a case it makes sense. I think stumpkiller has hit on a very good point. It is cheaper for many to buy new brass than invest in an annealing machine.
I in no way meant to suggest that the Fclass guys are leaders of BR habits. What I tried to infer was that BR guys made use of powder throws exclusively. The 1000yd BR guys are weighing charges much more from before when seeing the groups FClass guys were putting up.
My mentor was an old timer. He had been shooting competitive high power since the 70's I believe. He thought annealing was a joke and was having to cull case after case of otherwise good brass. His scores did not represent what he and his equipment was capable of. All of his brass was handed over and returned to him annealed. His groups tightened and his culling was reduced to nothing with the exception of one case separation in his Navy M1 G.
The benefit is for people who want to extract as many loadings as possible with expensive brass and maintain a consistent neck tension throughout the life of the brass. If the amount of shooting that a person does will not warrant this, or if the pockets are blown in 3 firings, there may be no benefit. I think that is something we can all agree on.
Came across an interesting opinion today. Sierra asked some handloaders including the staff, what their favorite reloading tool was.
One answer was from Sierra Bullets Chief Ballistician Tommy Todd. He answered: “A brass annealing machine and a RCBS Chargemaster complimented with a Sartorious scale.”
Dan Blake answered: “My Annealing Made Perfect (AMP) annealer. With consistent neck tension being one of the largest contributions to small Extreme Spread on muzzle velocities,...
Craig Arnzen answered: “My Annealeez [annealing machine] is one of the best tools in my reloading room. Neck tension is SO important, and annealing every firing really helps with that. This is an inexpensive tool that can anneal a lot of cases at once, and help me produce more consistent ammo.”
I work with those guys from Area 419. Speak with them on a weekly basis. I agree with them. Make my job at the bench and success down range easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Well I don't think it's a question of agreeing, or disagreeing as to wether it can improve neck tension, which can also improve accuracy.
Sierra also has a very elaborite controlled environment facility in the basement including a range of several hundred yards.
Also numerous barreled actions in many chamberings they set up to test ammo. It's a necessary part of their business.
And yes, some of their people also compete and hunt.
Bruce Baer dosent like his Chargemaster. He claims it's not accurate on the large volume charges. Like the ones that ruin cases after about 3 shots. lol
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=h...n-bass.jpg&f=1
The Chargmaster is used to throw light charges for the beam scale to trickle in.Quote:
Bruce Baer dosent like his Chargemaster. He claims it's not accurate on the large volume charges. Like the ones that ruin cases after about 3 shots. lol
I started annealing a few years back. After realizing the benefits 1st hand I wish I would have started annealing a long time ago.
Got that one on cast #416, after a switch to a live minnow. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Hey im headin out today, hope I can find a parkin spot what with all the (pros) down here.
For sure ill have minneys along, the Specks luv em.
I'm 68 and have been reloading for over 47 years and I do not anneal or shoot in competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Two weeks ago I went to resize some well used Federal 30-30 cases I bought in 1982 and the necks started to crack. :frusty:
The average deer in Pennsylvania is shot at 40 yards and when you are standing on your hind legs shooting at a running deer neck tension is the last thing on your mind.
I also prefer to go to the range when no one else is there, that way when I leave the range I know I was the best shot that day. :first:
And at the Whidden die website they sell expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter, to control neck tension.
I do not need the Whidden expander kit for my 30-30 because after the necks crack on my 37 year old 30-30 cases I just buy new brass. :smile-new:
The last time I shot at a deer it was going full warp speed across a open field at over 100 yards.
All the bullets kicked up dirt behind the running deer so I guess the hard brass in my case necks gripped the bullet too tight and slowed them down. :sorrow: