New Criterion 223 stainless 1 in 8 barrel shots 1 1/2 inch groups

I shoot my new barrel today and am not thrilled. shooting 68 grain hpbt Hornady. .015 off the lands. fps average 2771 23.5 grs CFE 223 powder
I cronographed 10 rounds cleaning between shots with damp pull through patch followed by 2 dry patches. cronograph went ok ES 37 Std dev 33.
I fired five 5 round groups cleaning between groups, allowing barrel to cool. then five 5 rounds groups with out cleaning.
no difference between dirty or clean.
Groups were true 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inch groups with NO flyers at all. beautiful groups very accurate. But large! I shoot at a 14 x 18 target with a one inch stick on dot. all groups were around the dot.
This was the load (except the OAL) that I fired in my Savage 1 in 9 20 heavy barrel. shoots 1/2 groups but with 20 precent flyers. In the savage.

Is my bullet jump that much to long? is this powder burn rate the problem. I am going to build some test rounds and try it again.
I have some faster powder H 322 it would not for crap in the Savage but was wonderful for my AR with 52 grain bullets.
Thanks Guys, And Gals

I think you need more powder.
My load for 69 gr bullet is higher than 23.5
But each rifle is different as you know
Jack

I think your problem might be you're using a load that shot well in a different barrel and expecting the same in this one. I think you should try working up a load for yjis new barrel . My M70HV absolutely loves the Hornady 68 gn HPBT, and believe it or not shoots them into the 1's! Well it has on a couple occasions, but low 2's - low 3's are the norm. My point is that it won't shoot them well with just any powder or any charge weight. Some loads shoot like yours did at over an inch. Mine shoots those bullets best with Benchmark powder and with the overall length listed in the manual. which I think is 2.250"? Try working up a load from low to high with the manual's seating depth in good trimmed brass. Take the best group you can get and then start playing with seating depths to see is it likes being closer to the lands.

My new 243 shot 2 1/2" groups with my old load of 4064 & GMX bullets so the hunt began, 4350 & ttxs bullets .92-.87-.98 !!!

Stop cleaning. Im going to throw this out there but Im guessing somewhere between 25 and 26 grains of CFE223

Your es/sd shows how unhappy the load was. Go buy some Hornady black 75gr ammo and try it(or similar match ammo).

All good advise, thanks
I agree that the 23.5 load is to small I needed a load to start with. Paddy using the 2.250 OAL would leave me over 1/8 inch off the lands, I am afraid that is just too far.
I am sorry I can't get my mind around a new precision barrel needing to be shot dirty. Mayb
I am going to start with the 23.5 load but use .oo5 off the lands just to see if adjusting the OAL will change anything. Then start moving up .5 grains at a time. My goal is to get ranged in at 100 yds. then start working at 300, 500, and 600 yds. I have over 1500 68 grain hpbt and when I get set up change to a longer bullet.
I shoot with a group of us old guys, no metals, gold, or points just bragging rights. The real fun is in building a gun then working up the most accurate load.

What does a red (OP) mean under my name?

Following the 2.250" listed in the Hornady manual my M70 shot very small groups. Obviously if you're shooting a NATO chamber that might be jumping further than mine are in the M70. Still, don't be afraid to jump a few just to try. Some shoot real good way off the lands. My 204 R likes the 32 VMax's about .080" off. With any new barrel you need to pretty much start at square one and work up a load.

The barrel is a Criterion stainless "223 Match" chamber with 1 in 8 twist. The criterion "223 Match" chamber is longer than the 223 Remington chamber to allow firing of the longer 80 grain bullets. the 68 hpbt hornady bullet touches the lands at 2.380.

Quote:

---

I am sorry I can't get my mind around a new precision barrel needing to be shot dirty.

---

I guess dirty is a subjective term. Everybody has a different routine I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azguy

What does a red (OP) mean under my name?

---

Means you're the "original poster" not someone replying to your questions. ;-)

I have the exact same barrel on my Savage action. Shoots quite well, so I suspect you've just not developed your load well enough for this barrel, or in assembling your rig, you've left something slightly loose. Go back and check everything, especially the front scope ring mount screw and make sure it's not too long and leaving your scope mount loose, and don't forget to use locktite on the threads.

BTW: my "match" chamber is SAMMI specs, and is actually a bit shorter in the throat than my stock model 12FV barrel. When shooting the 69 grain Lapua Scenar, I am in the lands by .005 with a full charge of Varget and no room to move it off the lands without over compressing the charge and getting inconsistent CBTO measurements.

I find Hornaday's prefer a generous jump rather than seated into the lands. How are you measuring your CBTO? Hornaday modified brass?

A great shooting load in my barrel is the 53 grain V-Max over a stout charge of IMR3031. Works in both my 223 Savages.

I hope this helps.

Another thing one can do is to lengthen the throat. Unithroater from PTG

I thought maybe OP meant Old Person.
Yes I am using a hornady modified brass. I am actually measuring OAL with a ogive compairer .
I have several test load made up and will give them a go next week.
I was surprised at the group size, knowing that I would have to work up to an accurate load, I can't fault the barrel, the accuracy is great. With my 1 in 9 savage heavy it shot 3/4 moa out of the box, then worked down from there. The 223 remington savage seems more forgiving than the Criterion barrel. I am hoping, and I will work for a one moa at 500 yards consistanly. The savage would do that at 300 yards but reaching out to 500 600 yards with the 68 grain was just far.

You know its kind of funny, 30 years ago or so I shot black powder pistols, . But what was strange in if the powder charge did not fill the chamber we would finish off with corn meal. made for a much more accurate shot.
I wonder is a rifle charge that is short affect the accuracy?

although I am not suggesting stuffing with cornmeal.

I always go for the slower powders, helps on case fill.

something to try, 23.8 grs H4895, 70gr nosler RDF bullets, loose neck tension, can almost turn bullets by hand, load them .020 longer than touching the lands, it will put ya in the winners circle, we tried this in a few 9 twist savages, works well

chet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chetc

something to try, 23.8 grs H4895, 70gr nosler RDF bullets, loose neck tension, can almost turn bullets by hand, load them .020 longer than touching the lands, it will put ya in the winners circle, we tried this in a few 9 twist savages, works well

chet

---

How does sizing a case with that little amount of neck tension allow you to jam a bullet .020" into the lands without pushing it back into the case?

It doesn't....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azguy

What does a red (OP) mean under my name?

---

OP = Original Poster

It lets others know you're the one who started this thread which can be helpful when there's a lot of replies and back and forth in a thread.

Just updated it to read "Thread Starter" which is a little more descriptive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evlshnngns

Your es/sd shows how unhappy the load was. Go buy some Hornady black 75gr ammo and try it(or similar match ammo).

---

This may very well one of the best thoughts on my subject.
I may be over thinking this. Hornady black has an oal of 2.250, maybe that would be a good starting point. I added to my test loads 2.250 rounds to each load step.

My personal experience, my 2-223's were very hard to dial in. My 22-250 was very easy and super accurate, JMO.

Below is what I settled with on my 223. I am not recommending this load to anyone. I am only showing the picture for illustrative purposes only. The rifle also like Berger 52 grain "flat based" bullets also. FWIW, on some of my rifles all the way up, some didn't care for the Hornady Bullets, especially the V-Max's. JMO

The "circle" dot on this target is the size of a #2 pencil eraser!

[IMG]http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/a...pszn5bwydc.jpg[/IMG]

I have had issues with "match" chambers in hunting rifles and the tightness in the neck in a AR with feeding, in a bolt gun i always felt that i needed to get 100 rounds down the tube before i do alot of load development to let things wear in, I also use graphite when i break them in seems to work well

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azguy

I thought maybe OP meant Old Person.
Yes I am using a hornady modified brass. I am actually measuring OAL with a ogive compairer .
I have several test load made up and will give them a go next week.
I was surprised at the group size, knowing that I would have to work up to an accurate load, I can't fault the barrel, the accuracy is great. With my 1 in 9 savage heavy it shot 3/4 moa out of the box, then worked down from there. The 223 remington savage seems more forgiving than the Criterion barrel. I am hoping, and I will work for a one moa at 500 yards consistanly. The savage would do that at 300 yards but reaching out to 500 600 yards with the 68 grain was just far.

---

OP= Old Phart in the nearby town of Pflugerville, TX. :p

I find my Savage barreled 223 has a deeper throat than my Criterion barrel, but only by a few thousandths and Jumping the V-max's seems to work best. The 53 grain V-Max shoots well enough out of both to make little sport of 4 inch clays at 500 yds. Last time we were out at the distance shooting range, son popped 9 out of 10 with his 12FV 223 and a Vortex Crossfire II scope. He has shot several 5 shot groups in the zero's at 100 yds with that inexpensive load. Oh, to have young eyes again!

Not against Hornady, but I can't get alot of their bullets to shoot thru alot of my guns.....some will....I have a Stevens 200 in 223 that will shoot 1/2" and some better using Berger bullets, and Varget powder.....I hear alot of comments about how expensive the Bergers are, yet they shoot tiny groups consistently....the peace of mind makes up for the price difference....now, I do shoot alot of the new Hornady eld' s, match and x' s in my 6.5 creeds and they work great....don't get tunnel vision on bullets, powders, or loads....I am sure you will find a load that shoots bug holes..'rsbhunter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evlshnngns

Your es/sd shows how unhappy the load was. Go buy some Hornady black 75gr ammo and try it(or similar match ammo).

---

+1:thumb:

I am loading Sierra 69gr Tipped Match Kings with 24.5 Varget in Starline brass. They hit 2890fps with SD in the teens and shoot sub 3/4". My 77gr TMKs hit 2722fps with 23.4 Varget and shoot 1/2". Both are 20 thou off the lands of my rifle. I think you have some room to play with there...

you need the heaver bullet,like 77 gr sierra..mine don't like the 69 either

its a criterion barrekl,its hand lapped,dont clean for maybe 100 rounds,try varget or reloader 15

I have tried to get my mind around the shooting dirty barrel vs a clean barrel, I even did as much research on what barrel makers had to say. I am talking about a hand lapped barrel by a known maker.
Hand lapped barrels are bored just slightly tight then hand lapped to a very tight tolerance to be as smooth and uniform a possible. Factory barrels need to be broke in to try and get this tolerance.
A hand lapped barrel gets fouled in the mainly in the first short part of the barrel.
I have shot my barrel just after wiping with a wet patch and drying with a dry patch. The first 2 bullets go about 1 inch above the point of aim but stay about 1/4 inch apart. the next 5 shots go to the point aim about 1/4 inch group. The next 2 group of five shots stay in the point of aim under 1/2 inch. this is with a very clean barrel.
at somewhere 20 to 30 shots the groups open up somewhat. Recleaning seams to start the process all over again.
I do not doubt at all that some shooters do not get this results.
Some one please explain why their barrels shoot better dirty. I am a retired engineer and would really like to have some real information.
All, all the barrels makers state that shooting a clean barrel will give me much longer accuracy life.
Thanks