Savage barrel issue

Two years ago I bought a Savage 12-112 Varminter in 22-250. I like it because I can easily change barrels. I worked up a load using a Sierra 60 gn bullet with H380 powder at 3612 fps. I was getting groups inside 1/2" and many tighter. I even got two groups in a 1/4" group. Before I left for Utah to Prairie Dog hunt I had shot about 300 to 400 rounds and my groups were 5/8" to 3/4" and I didn't understand what was happening. When I began shooting the P Dogs I was getting them out to 250 yds easily. The more I shot the looser my groups got and I stopped shooting when the groups were 1/1/2" at 100 yds.

When I got home and did some research I found the barrel was coppered up. I was not familiar with shooting that fast a cartridge. I used a lot of copper cleaners and JB bore polish and the best I can get with that barrel now is 3/4" groups. The barrel has no copper in it now.

Last year I bought two Shilen barrels one 22-250 and one 308 in competition grade. I haven't shot the 308 yet. but the 22-250 is holding 1/2" or better groups, depending on how steady I am that day. I am using Lapua cases, Sierra 65 gn SBT bullets, 29.6 of R15, CCI 200 primers and .030" jump for the bullet. I am ready for the P Dogs this summer now.

My question is, is there any hope the Savage barrel can ever get back to the 1/2" or better groups it was getting when new before it was coppered up?

I asked Savage if I could buy a barrel for it but they said I had to send it to the factory to get a new barrel. I found that a little ridiculous because With my wrench I can break the nut loose, unscrew the barrel, put in a new barrel with a head space gauge set the barrel and tighten the nut and that is exactly what they will do. The original barrel was so accurate I couldn't believe the groups I was getting. I am not wild about sending my rifle back to them so I guess I won't get a new Savage barrel.

Now that I have a good load for the Shilen I am planning to try that load in the Savage barrel, maybe before I head for Utah this summer. It only takes a few minutes to change barrels and I can even do it in the field when P Dog hunting.

I sure do love this rifle, a little more than I love my 1903 Springfield 30-06 that is sporterized that I have owned since 1962. Both are great rifles.

Remove the copper. Be careful with the chemicals.

Savage won't even sell you a barrel. I wanted to replace a shot out one with a new Savage barrel. Bought a Shilen and had a friend do the job since I am completely inept.

Yeah, I find it strange that they make a rifle with a barrel nut to easily change barrels and then refuse to sell you a barrel. I don't know if they still make a rifle with a barrel nut to remove/replace barrels but I hope so. What they are doing is driving a thriving business of selling barrels to the other aftermarket barrel makers. OTOH, they may not be able to make barrels fast enough to have spares to sell.

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Originally Posted by Carl D

Yeah, I find it strange that they make a rifle with a barrel nut to easily change barrels and then refuse to sell you a barrel. I don't know if they still make a rifle with a barrel nut to remove/replace barrels but I hope so. What they are doing is driving a thriving business of selling barrels to the other aftermarket barrel makers. OTOH, they may not be able to make barrels fast enough to have spares to sell.

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I'm sure it's a liability thing.

Yes, I guess so and it's a good thing that aftermarket barrel makers step up to the business of selling. I bought 2 new competition barrels from Shilen.

The loss of accuracy of 22 250 barrel may be due to erosion of the throat. 22 250 are on the hot side for sure. Try getting stuff to measure CBTO ( cartridge base to ogive) and work on optimizing seating depth. Your bullet jump may have increased. Also, try seating your bullets closer to the throat short term.

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Originally Posted by Carl D

Yeah, I find it strange that they make a rifle with a barrel nut to easily change barrels and then refuse to sell you a barrel. I don't know if they still make a rifle with a barrel nut to remove/replace barrels but I hope so. What they are doing is driving a thriving business of selling barrels to the other aftermarket barrel makers. OTOH, they may not be able to make barrels fast enough to have spares to sell.

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They don't use a nut because it makes it easier to replace barrels, they use the nut because it eliminates the need to precisely headspace each barrel on a shoulder which saves a TON of time in terms of production and assembly. Savage could care less what we do with our rifles after they're bought and paid for - they're in the business of selling complete guns, not piece parts.

Savage will sell you a new barrel, but you'll have to send your rifle in to them so that they can install it, roll stamp it and proof test it. They won't let a barrel out the door that hasn't been proofed for obvious reasons.

strut64, I have thought about that and when I get time I will put the barrel back in and recheck the distance to set the bullet out to and load some test rounds. I'll also try at least two seating depths for group. I just hope I haven't wasted the barrel by not understanding high fps coppers the barrel.

J.Baker, that's an interesting point. If it saves time setting head space then why don't they do that on all their high power rifles. I have replaced barrels and setting head space without the jam nut method is time consuming. I would think they would want to make all the barrels easy to set head space. In fact, the head space will loosen as time goes by from wear of the bolt head lugs, reciever matching face lugs, cartridge recess in bolt head and the chamber wear. Why not make all barrels easy to reset by an owner or gunsmith without remachining it. Even without a go/no go gauge a person can use a new empty case that has been full length resized to set the head space.

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Originally Posted by Carl D

strut64, I have thought about that and when I get time I will put the barrel back in and recheck the distance to set the bullet out to and load some test rounds. I'll also try at least two seating depths for group. I just hope I haven't wasted the barrel by not understanding high fps coppers the barrel.

J.Baker, that's an interesting point. If it saves time setting head space then why don't they do that on all their high power rifles. I have replaced barrels and setting head space without the jam nut method is time consuming. I would think they would want to make all the barrels easy to set head space. In fact, the head space will loosen as time goes by from wear of the bolt head lugs, reciever matching face lugs, cartridge recess in bolt head and the chamber wear. Why not make all barrels easy to reset by an owner or gunsmith without remachining it. Even without a go/no go gauge a person can use a new empty case that has been full length resized to set the head space.

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Who is "they"?

Savage uses barrel nuts on all their centerfire bolt action rifles. Many other brands of aftermarket actions also use a barrel nut system, heck Remington even released the 783 with a barrel nut. People have been converting Rem 700's to use the barrel nut (called Rem-age) for years.

Cheaper and easier to use. Weather its better for accuracy? Well, thats a whole other ball game...

Savage Factory barrels are great, and you can buy a take off barrel online for cheap generally. The custom barrel by Krieger, Criterion, Shaw, Shilen ETC are all arguably better quality though.

I wasn't aware that ALL the Savage centerfires have the barrel nut. It seems when I bought my rifle two years ago some of the Savages didn't have a barrel nut. Well, I'm glad they all have the barrel nut.

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Originally Posted by Carl D

I wasn't aware that ALL the Savage centerfires have the barrel nut. It seems when I bought my rifle two years ago some of the Savages didn't have a barrel nut. Well, I'm glad they all have the barrel nut.

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Some have a smooth nut, some have a larger nut, some have a small nut. But all Savage Centerfire Bolt Action rifles have nuts.

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Originally Posted by Blckwlf

Some have a smooth nut, some have a larger nut, some have a small nut. But all Savage Centerfire Bolt Action rifles have nuts.

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Yep the smooth nut to the untrained eye may look Jeff Sessions....I mean nutless.

Once copper has been completely stripped out, accuracy will not get back to baseline until the imperfections in the barrel/machining are "filled" again. Every barrel is different, a match grade (like the Shilen) has been lapped and should be relatively free of machining imperfections compared to a factory barrel.
You said "the barrel has no copper in it now". Did you strip it all out again, after shooting the larger groups? Send a couple dozen foulers to see if it improves accuracy.

400 rounds shouldn't have trashed a 22-250 even for the throat burner it is, unless you were loading hot and shooting strings that were too long and fast, exacerbating the heat erosion.

tobnpr, The frist time I cleaned it when I got back from Utah I did strip the bore of any copper, absolutely clean patches. I only shot it about 20 or 30 times before I gave up on it and ordered the Shilen barrels. When I get back from Utah this fall I will start working on getting the Savage barrel back to good groups. I have since that learned you have to leave some copper in the bore to fill the pits. Be that as it may, the Shilen barrel exhibits just that situation. Now I have to find how much cleaning is required to keep the group after a few burn in shots. I never was concerned with tight groups until I started shooting P Dogs. Hitting a one pint water bottle sized critter at 200 or 300 yds requires tight groups and solid holds but it's fun and skill building.

I'm thinking that you are at that point in your shooting hobby that a borescope of some kind would be very beneficial. There's no more guessing about your cleaning routine, or how much throat erosion has occurred once you can actually see with your own eyes what's going on. Clean patches don't tell the whole story, they are merely a reflection of the limitations of your cleaning methods.

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Originally Posted by strut64

The loss of accuracy of 22 250 barrel may be due to erosion of the throat. 22 250 are on the hot side for sure. Try getting stuff to measure CBTO ( cartridge base to ogive) and work on optimizing seating depth. Your bullet jump may have increased. Also, try seating your bullets closer to the throat short term.

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This^^

I also shoot the 22-250... although I shoot a 55 gr. @ only 3300 fps... You're pushing those 60 grainers faster than I push my 55's... you've probably toasted the lands a bit, so you'll have to find where the lands starts now... or start seating the bullet longer and see if it starts to tighten back up. my original load development for my CBI barrel was 2.10 measuring to the OG. now I'm out to 2.15 after 1000 rounds maybe just a bit less.

What is your copper removal process?

How many shots do you fire before cleaning? A high pressure and high velocity round like the .22-250 will leave quite a bit of copper in a non hand lapped factory barrel. How fast you shoot and how hot you allow the barrel to get before cooling greatly affects copper deposits and chamber throat wear. I suspect you will need to seat the bullets farther out because of throat erosion, and you will need to step up your cleaning regimen (cut down on the total number of shots between cleanings). I try to rotate between different rifles when PD shooting, so that no rifle gets too hot. You might also want to have the muzzle re-crowned by a competent gunsmith. If you are not using a tight fitting bore guide for the cleaning rod, you can wear the barrel crown, leading to loss of accuracy. Good luck with it.