trueing/timing work

hi guys, thanks to some fellow members my wallet is lighter.
i'm building a rifle to shoot a local F open. .284 win cbi heavy barrel, model 12 bvss action, sav 2 trigger on the way, and i plan to use a choate tactical on it.
so i'm sending the barrel out for a brake, i thought in the meantime i may send the action out for trueing and timing.

what do you think, should i bother, does it help much? should i change the firing pin setup?

who's the best for savages, i know SSS is great but real tough to deal with. other than them, who else?

Try Kevin Cram, Montour Rifles, Danville PA.

Check out Josh over at Patriot Valley Arms in PA. www.patriotvalleyarms.com

You can have brakes in F Class open? Always thought it was a no brake sport.

No brakes.

I thought so. Hopefully it's an easy on and off like I use on my .308.

I wouldn't waste time or money truing a savage for F-Class. Possibly short range bench rest, but even then... Go out and shoot a lot. Get your load dialed in and work on reading the wind. That will get you more points than a truing job any day of the week.

That's a good point.

I spoke with a Smith. He said it wasn't worth the effort since savage runs a floating bolt head.

I spoke with the local comp director and he informed me no brakes as well. I guess I'm saving a few bucks there

That being said, is it worth messing with the firing pin and spring or just shoot the darn thing?

I should have everything together by the end of next week

Don't mess with the FP or spring. Changing either will just get you inconsistent ignition issues. Check the FP proptrusion and adjust it as needed, but other than that don't mess with it.

IMHO, the only advantage to the "true and time" thing is an easier bolt lift but remember, it'll never be a Custom or Remington action.
Had one done on my Model 10 "lefty" repeater action and wasn't impressed with the final results, but I can say, "I had mine done". It'll NEVER match my Remington XP 100 action. ;)

I subscribe to the truing portion of the deal. At least the face of the action. I have seen the pictures Fred posted of how Savage aligns the barrels with the actions and it is not a pretty thing. To me accuracy does not require the truing but precision does.

Spending money on a quality barrel is more utilized if when someone can shoot at 100 yards on target and move to 300 or farther without having to adjust for horizontal, wind calls not withstanding. I want my barrel in line with the action so it sits straight in the stock and I want my barrel in line with the scope mount holes(action?). Is it required or even necessary? No. But why have anything other than a factory rifle. Factory Savages can shoot small groups with the right ammo. For a serious out west or yobuck zone hunting or prone rifle, a smooth bolt and precision machined barrel and action is what fills the bill.

Lone Wolfs barrel indexing contribution is a step above mating faces being perpendicular and concentric. I can guarantee his rifle action's face is perpendicular to the axis of the action/scope mount and his barrel and action are threaded to near perfection. This is another reason I subscribe to loosing the barrel nut for serious stuff. Class 3( or a tight 2 threads and a trued action, action threads and nut, and parallel ground recoil lug make the nut system bulletproof but with manufacturing tolerance over the years gets you a box of chocolates. A cased bench or prone rifle is safe but a hunting rifle might get dropped bumped or whatever. I want that barrel/action junction bulletproof.

Yes the floating bolt and head improves the mess of a factory machined action(and speeds headspacing) but truing that mess is not negatively effected by the floating bolt head or vise versa. Savage has even started to "true" some actions...according to them. Seen many of the less expensive savage rifle's action faces that look like a ball peen hammer was used to put it together.

IDK... seems to me, if I was gonna go thru the hassle and expense of truing an action (other than SSS T&T for bolt lift), I think I would start with a 700 or it's clone. Why spend all that money "perfecting" the specs of an imperfect design? Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Savage products, AS THEY ARE. I am confident nearly 99.99% of the factory Savages shoot as well or better than most any other factory gun, and any other brand can only say maybe 90% of their guns do as well. ( I will not defend or explain these stats, I believe you get my point) But there is nothing you can do to them to make them as good as the best 700 clone. I would rather take a $300 Rem action, have IT trued, and maybe THEN have what can be a much better gun.

I'll never personally T&T a Savage or remington action again. I'd rather save up for a remington clone action, or buy a used remington clone action. (Stiller, Surgeon, Defiance, etc). I have a better selection of parts with a Remington cloned action than I do with a Savage. However, the cloned action will have to have Savage barrel threads, so that cuts down on my choices and most aren't cheap. To my knowledge, the Ultimatum Deadline, Mausingield, Nucleus, TL3, and SR3. However, you can go with a Remmage system for the remington cut threaded actions so there's that.

^^^^Yes, the "Remage" system is nothing unique. The barrel is simply threaded for the Rem action just as the Savage barrel is threaded for a Savage action. THe only other thing you need is a barrel nut threaded for a Rem as opposed to Savage.

Choosing a rem clone with savage threads is not any better. Maybe there are more Savage barrels available, but it's no big deal if you choose a good maker that is capable of threading for Rem. Bison and APache come to mind.

Robinhood, just wondering if you can shed some light on Savage's process of roller knurling the action face where the recoil lug mates up. Does this do a pretty consistent job of truing up the face as well as hardening it? What, if anything do you know about that process?

Inquiring minds might want to know....and relevant to OP's question of value of truing.

Thanks!

Honestly, I'm not sure of the jargon "roller knurling" for truing an action. I have seen a "few" savage action faces and only the PTA's have a relatively clean face. Most look more like they were peened to me. An answer from Fred is would clarify all questions, but those marks look like they were for some type of alignment process to me.

Another thing to note is that the factory recoil lug takes from .012" to .020" to clean up if you consider the stock taken off both sides for at least 90% cleanup I believe Savage uses the high torque value on the threads to compensate for the lack of sufficient contact on the mating surfaces. this can cause distortion, I'm sure the tolerances are calculated and also the reason for a floating bulkhead IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Honestly, I'm not sure of the jargon

Another thing to note is that the factory recoil lug takes from .012" to .020" to clean up if you consider the stock taken off both sides for at least 90% cleanup

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Well I don't understand any of the jargon, but I do know that the plain jane as is factory Savages I have will shoot about as well as im capable of shooting, and I would assume most others can as well.
The recoil lug puzzles me some in that if the action has been properly bedded, what advantage is had by (truing) the lug or replacing it with a better one?
I fully realize that due to existing group records, benchrest competitors especially need to apply max effort to everything.
But that's not exactly real world for most of us who just enjoy shooting well.
Its pretty easy to get caught up in the if you don't do this, you wont do that process.

Because the factory lug is not perfectly flat (true), even after bedding it, the rearward thrust under recoil will not be straight backwards. There will be some amount of push left or right. Picture two wedges pressed against each other, though their surfaces may be flat against each other, pressure on one can cause them to slide. If both surfaces are flat and square to each other, they will not slide. Who knows how much it really effects practical accuracy? Depends, I guess on how bad they are to begin with.

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Originally Posted by foxx

Because the factory lug is not perfectly flat (true), even after bedding it, the rearward thrust under recoil will not be straight backwards. There will be some amount of push left or right. Picture two wedges pressed against each other, though their surfaces may be flat against each other, pressure on one can cause them to slide. If both surfaces are flat and square to each other, they will not slide. Who knows how much it really effects practical accuracy? Depends, I guess on how bad they are to begin with.

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Usually the issue isn't so much accuracy. Accuracy can be achieved as long as it recoils consistently. You are more likely to have a funny zeroing experience like 3 Mils left or right from the mechanical center of your scope etc. If it's so bad that the barreled action is actually realigned every shot then you will likely not be able to print any groups. Similar to an off the rack M4/M16 from our armories. They are typically 2-4 MOA at best. This is due to the movement between the upper and lower receiver not being consistent shot to shot. Now if you have a matched receiver set or the Armorer took the time to add inserts and whatever other tricks they use to make the upper and lower match more consistently you can achieve that 1 MOA or better weapon.

So if the action face, recoil lug, and barrel nut are out of alignment you may or may not see accuracy issues that will actually affect performance. So basically unless it's really out of alignment the most issue you'll see is at zeroing. Where some have ran out of windage adjustment to actually get zero'd up. This can be further compounded if you have an additional issue like scope bases being out of alignment or the actual screw holes themselves.

As long as you don't have those issues and you have consistency you can be accurate. I'll go back to the off the rack M16A2 I was handed for annual qual one year when we were still using iron sights. My zero was 27 Clicks left windage. My rear sight was dang near flush to the left, but I had a zero. I shot a 238/250 with that rifle on qual day.

So like I said in the beginning, I don't believe it's worth the money unless you're getting a barrel shouldered up and you intend to compete or require the highest level of performance from your firearm.

Well put Phil. It is amusing on how many believe a floating bolthead compensates for the barrel and the action/scope mount(sight) misalignment. You did a much better job of delivering the concept than I have done for sure.

As far as truing and machining things, how many trued actions and custom actions would you find in a hunters or casual competitors safe. I have seen a bunch of them. I know a lot of smiths moving custom stuff on a regular basis. I am certain there are a lot of rifles out there that are capable of much more that what the user can do with them. Some of us build things to perform way above what is required. I am kind of like that, just not to the point of buying a custom action. I like polishing turds.

At the end of the day there is a Stevens 200 with a 7mm08 Shaw barrel and a Sightron SII Big Sky 2.5x10 in the safe that shoots 3 shot groups better than anything I have seen. Total cost 700 including the very nice glass. I sold the factory barrel and got $75 for it so that's even better. I did grind the factory lug and honed the action face but that is it.

If all those issues were regular concern we wouldn't be putting together rifles in our garages with 0 training/education on the subject.... However, when you want to be a "Pro" then you start looking at what's working best for the Pros and why they choose to do it that way.

This is a savage forum right. For a moment I thought I was on the hide.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

This is a savage forum right. For a moment I thought I was on the hide.

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I just drop the knowledge and understanding in my head based on personal experience. I don't get into discussions over there, but they are usually quicker to buy Non-Savage related items over there :whistle:

I think most of us are perfectly content just being a "semi pro". lol
Im interpreting the answer to my question to be if you can fine, but if you cant don't worry about it.
Which by the way I never have.

My idea of moving towards the goal of being a Pro Competitive shooter is eliminating all other factors, so that performance is solely based on me as the shooter and true skill can shine through. Therefore at that point the only option is to start building as close to perfect precision rifles to compete with, shoot a round like the 6.5x47 that is extremely consistent and easy to load for which provides very little changes throughout it's barrel life span, and start a training regime that allows me to compete to the best of my ability all why managing "life" outside of this personal goal.

In this game a "semi-pro" can still be extremely competitive. They even sometimes out shoot the "Pro", but the Pro is normally more consistent. I am still trying to break the barrier of consistency at matches. 1 day events I'm rather solid. The 2 Day events take quite a bit more conditioning to shoot well on both days.

The biggest item I've learned whether shooting for fun or sport is that you must always have fun. If you're not having fun, you probably need a break, training from a 3rd party, or reputable instructor.

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

I just drop the knowledge and understanding in my head based on personal experience. I don't get into discussions over there, but they are usually quicker to buy Non-Savage related items over there :whistle:

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That's cool. My thoughts are this is a Savage specific forum. That would entail perspectives from guys like Fred, who has made the Savage action part of his lifes work, to the guys who have one rifle and it is an Axis or a b-mag and they shoot or hunt a few times a year. Not everyone has the perspective of buying or having a 10,000 dollar a year hobby where only the finest equipment will do. Some of us have access to tools to where we can make mods relatively cheap. Some have no tools at all.

Phil, You have outgrown the Savage. I appreciate your insight and have watched your commitment to your trade launch your knowledge of the shooting sport that gives you your finely tuned perspective. I even try to follow your competitive endeavors. However as a moderator, I can't really grasp how you are attempting to stifle anyone who wants to bring precision and accuracy improvements to their preference of rifles. Fred does it, John Weil, Stan Pate and Darrel Buell do it, and the many of the guys that are on this forum do it. Savage is my mount Everest. If improving the savage action is a pet peeve of yours I can live with that.

It's not a pet peeve at all. It's actually the foundation of my knowledge and also drove a lot of personal time spent on the research of what other options offer. I took the Savage action as far as I felt I personally could before I decided to upgrade.

Timing/Truing has a specific purpose and my understanding of it comes from speaking with a number of Smith's. I decided I'd rather put that service cost back into the funds for a higher end product that wouldn't require it from the start. What level of equipment someone uses doesn't bother me at all. If someone wanted to put $1k of work into a Savage action that's fine, but it is what it is in the end....

Mine points have only been as to why I have chosen this route and what I recommend to the OP in this post is based on me being in there position, but with current experience.

Well some types of competition require more raw talent than others, and that includes the shooting sports.
Id say the type your involved in would be one of them.
Trap shooting would be another. Ive known at least a handful of guys who got to the point they could break 100 straight occaissionaly with a gun like a plain old 870 Rem. But ive never known one who broke 200 straight, even though a few tried with very expensive guns.
They just weren't 200 hitters, and the gun quality didn't help much.
Now as for long range target shooting, the more experienced shooters get to know the days they might, from the days they wont.
It can come down to what relay you shot on making the difference, and not necessarily just skill level.
Some days you gits the bear, and some days the bear gonna git you.

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Originally Posted by yobuck

Well some types of competition require more raw talent than others, and that includes the shooting sports.
Id say the type your involved in would be one of them.
Trap shooting would be another. Ive known at least a handful of guys who got to the point they could break 100 straight occaissionaly with a gun like a plain old 870 Rem. But ive never known one who broke 200 straight, even though a few tried with very expensive guns.
They just weren't 200 hitters, and the gun quality didn't help much.
Now as for long range target shooting, the more experienced shooters get to know the days they might, from the days they wont.
It can come down to what relay you shot on making the difference, and not necessarily just skill level.
Some days you gits the bear, and some days the bear gonna git you.

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This I completely agree with that assessment, but it plays a bigger factor with static line events like F-Class, X-Course, and BR. If you get more wind on your relay etc. it definitely will skew the scores.

In PRS 2 day matches we typically shoot 20 completely different stages within the Course of Fire over 2 days. Yes you could have an unlucky run on a long range stage with the wind. My buddy had the wind flip 180* right before his first shot and go from 5-8mph to 21-22mph. However, if he had shot consistently well on the other 19 stages (typically 80% or better) he still would have placed very well. The winners keep on winning because they are willing to train for as many possibilities as possible. A mental mistake will typically cost us way more points than the wind. for instance I wrote down the wrong dope and zero'd a stage that I likely would have cleaned. It was a prone stage all under 600yds and I had been cleaning stages all morning. It dropped me from a tie for 3rd to 16th place. If we would have got to shoot the last 6 stages of the match that were thrown out due to a fog that wouldn't lift I probably would have made up a few more places...

But I come back to having fun and I actually had a blast at that match.

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

It's not a pet peeve at all. It's actually the foundation of my knowledge and also drove a lot of personal time spent on the research of what other options offer. I took the Savage action as far as I felt I personally could before I decided to upgrade.

Timing/Truing has a specific purpose and my understanding of it comes from speaking with a number of Smith's. I decided I'd rather put that service cost back into the funds for a higher end product that wouldn't require it from the start. What level of equipment someone uses doesn't bother me at all. If someone wanted to put $1k of work into a Savage action that's fine, but it is what it is in the end....

Mine points have only been as to why I have chosen this route and what I recommend to the OP in this post is based on me being in there position, but with current experience.

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The OP has already purchased his rifle, a trigger, a barrel and is working on the stock. Lets say $1600+ investment without the optics. Im going to work off this premise.

In F/class upsetting the rifle between rounds can be costly. Cocking a Savage will upset the rifle making target acquisition more time consuming and ultimately cause fatigue. One of the things that mitigates that is bolt lift improvement. For 175 Plus shipping Fred will do this work for you. The difference made in my scores was significant with the improved bolt lift. Well worth 2 or 3 hundred bucks.

I feel that to propose for him to sell all of his stuff and buy a $1300+ action, a $600 stock, a $250 trigger and a $350+ barrel($2500+) is not only moving out of the parameters of the OP's question but taking 700 out of his pocket for better glass. Savages do well in F/ class, one. Two, if you have the ability to do some stuff yourself lets do it. This forum has some guys that are willing to do things on there own to save money. DIY Lift Kits, barrel changes or even installing a SAVII on a bottom release in a chassis. On here we are Hacks and Savagesmiths as well as real smiths. Drop's mic..............

Ok. Not sure where exactly I suggested for him to drop everything and buy a new rifle, but sure. He could also pick up a Stiller Predator or Bighorn Origin for around $800-$900, throw the same prefit style barrel on it and be closer to the $1800-$2k mark.

I've been around here since 2013, not as long as some, but I've hacked up and modified a number of Savages. I still do for many friends who are just starting out or know that I have the tools to do barrel swaps and fix some of the known issues. So although I have moved on from running Savage actions the newer shooters find them handy to get started and I still stand behind that. Like I've always said Savages fill a Gap in the market and they do it very well. Whether that Gap fulfills your needs or not is up for the individual to decide.

To close my comments here, I'm not going to argue with someone who is creating an argument for the sake of having an argument. There's nothing to prove here on the forum and it doesn't help the OP or any other member for that matter. If you have further items of discussion you can PM me.

The three previous posters have all been around lomg enough to know I have taken my personal Savages to a higher level at a much higher cost.
I shoot short range BR and use a Model 12 single shot that has been timed and trued and a 3oz. trigger installed ground lug, with a 6 x 45 X caliber barrel all in a McMillan Edge LV toppep with Kelby base and rings and a Weaver T36. You don't want know the final cost.
Second one is a PTA timed and trued (can't feel or see a difference from before) it is also in a McMillan Edge with a 6BR X caliber with Leupold 45 comp. and all Leupold bases and rings. Another expensive rig. They both shoot under 1/4 at 100 but are both out classed in the score game but to be perfectly HONEST I am happy I did what I did but would have been better off dumping the cash into a Custom built rifle, and I am at this time pricing one out for Hunter class.
My opinion and take it for what it cost, save your money shoot what you have because you will change your needs once you find your way and the Savage will not hold it's value like a custom will.

The desire to win can cause people to do things that defy logic.
We could no doubt have similar discussions about bowling balls, and for sure golf clubs.
But at least the best golfers get paid very well. lol