This scope stuff is driving me crazy... Need scope advise for a 10T .308

Rifle in question: Savage 10T in .308.

Current scope: Old Bushnell Banner 3-9x? with crappy Warne rings

What am I doing with it: 100-600yds known distance currently, want to work out to 1000yds.

Budget: $1000'ish.

New to the Savage, learning how to shoot long distance. Obviously, the Bushnell isn't up to the task, once I get past 100yds it's over, at least with my eyes.

I'm confused about all the different reticles. If I'm shooting known distance, is all this MOA/MIL nonsense really necessary? Once I work up the dope for my load, it's largely a matter of cranking in some elevation and windage, right?

Is FFP necessary shooting at KD? Seems like I can save a few $ by going SFP... but I don't know the downsides. One of the scope reviews I read, with a FFP scope, he said at full magnification the reticle obscured the bull at distance.

As I understand it, Japanese glass is the best (minus the European makes in some respect) but I've not found a place where they tell you glass source. I don't like China and I don't want their crap, but I don't know how to tell unless it's spelled out in the specs.

Scope brand. I understand everyone has their favorites, here's what I've gathered, in general terms... Leupold is good but overpriced for what you get. Buddy of mine has one of the new SIG optics, but I haven't really read anything good or bad about them. Can't afford the high-dollar stuff... Swaro, NF, Trij, etc, and I don't want a Vortex (based on what I have read about constant warranty returns.) Here is what I'm considering...

Burris XTR II 4-20x50
Bushnell LRS 6-24x50

I've also seen Primary Arms and Sightron listed here a few times, and I acknowledge that I don't know anything about Nikon (except their camera stuff,) Redfield, and some of the others.

So... without being too brutal, let me know what you think and what I need to be looking for.

Since you referenced the Burris XTR 4-20x50 and the Bushnell 6-24x50, I'm going to suggest the Sightron SIII 6-24x50 as another option for you... The are available in FFP and SFP both. I went with the FFP version myself as I wanted to keep my subtensions the same no matter what magnification I am on. I have not found the floating center dot to be too large for "fine" work. The advantage of the SFP scope will be you'll most likely have more MOA or MIL available on your turrets... (FFP= 80 MOA SFP= 100 MOA) additionally you can dial your magnification down which will increase your subtensions which in turn gives you more room to shoot longer distances. The Sightron is Japanese glass and is on par with the Nightforce NXS as far as clarity. It does lack some of the features of the NXS (such as zero stop) but at half the price it's tough to beat.

AS far as MIL vs MOA get the reticle that you are familiar with using... I've always used MOA so I stayed with it. Do NOT get a scope that is both MIL and MOA (reticle and turrets need to be the same).

Lastly, the Primary Arms has had fantastic reviews and I've seen some demos It is a great place to "Start" if you don't want to break open the piggy bank just yet.

I have a Sightron 8-32×56 in Burris Xtreme rings on a 20moa rail on my model 10 FCP-K. Scope was <$700 dealer cost. I'm getting tired of swapping it back and forth between the model 10 and model 12FV.

A buddy bought one of the PA FFP scopes. When it arrived the number rings under the knobs were spinning free having never been glued down at the factory. He never got to give the scope a chance, just returned it for his money back and bought a Sightron like mine.

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Originally Posted by holescreek

I have a Sightron 8-32×56 in Burris Xtreme rings on a 20moa rail on my model 10 FCP-K. Scope was <$700 dealer cost. I'm getting tired of swapping it back and forth between the model 10 and model 12FV
.

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32x??? Good heavens. And clarity is decent even at full mag?

Leupold VX3i 6.5-20x50. Great glass, has turrets and reticles to choose from what other features do you need? Also well under the $1000 budget. My second choice would be the sightron.

Have you ever heard of anybody gathering up all their old 30 year old scopes and giving them away, so they could go buy some new ones?
No you haven't, and if you happen to know somebody owning them, they aren't even thinking about buying newer ones.
Not to say new ones aren't very good mind you, at least some of them.
If you look on Ebay you will find say a 6.5x20 Leupold for a fraction the cost of a new one, and it will be guaranteed forever.

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Originally Posted by Charlie98

Rifle in question: Savage 10T in .308.
What am I doing with it: 100-600yds known distance currently, want to work out to 1000yds.
Budget: $1000'ish.

1) I'm confused about all the different reticles. If I'm shooting known distance, is all this MOA/MIL nonsense really necessary?
2) Once I work up the dope for my load, it's largely a matter of cranking in some elevation and windage, right?
3) Is FFP necessary shooting at KD? Seems like I can save a few $ by going SFP... but I don't know the downsides.
4) One of the scope reviews I read, with a FFP scope, he said at full magnification the reticle obscured the bull at distance.
5) As I understand it, Japanese glass is the best (minus the European makes in some respect) but I've not found a place where they tell you glass source. I don't like China and I don't want their crap, but I don't know how to tell unless it's spelled out in the specs.

Burris XTR II 4-20x50
Bushnell LRS 6-24x50

I've also seen Primary Arms and Sightron listed here a few times, and I acknowledge that I don't know anything about Nikon (except their camera stuff,) Redfield, and some of the others.

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Originally Posted by SageRat Shooter

AS far as MIL vs MOA get the reticle that you are familiar with using... I've always used MOA so I stayed with it. Do NOT get a scope that is both MIL and MOA (reticle and turrets need to be the same).
Lastly, the Primary Arms has had fantastic reviews and I've seen some demos It is a great place to "Start" if you don't want to break open the piggy bank just yet.

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SageRat's advice is SPOT-ON.

1) As was said, DO NOT, repeat that, DO NOT buy mixed turrets and reticles!! You will get lost in calculators and wheels, and stupidity. Pick a system, neither is better or worse. Is it necessary, unless you want to "guess" constantly, or just shoot a deer occasionally. People who use SFP ALWAYS get lost, and swear they missed by XX. A FFP scope in either system allows known adjustment at ANY distance.
2) No. IF: Powder lots, bullets, atmosphere, shooting location NEVER change, then your load never does. The instant something changes, so does your "drop" or windage. So if you are a 100 bullet guy with 1# of powder, you should be constantly re-working your loads; or accept that you will never be spot on.
3) The practicality is SFP is Cheaper to do, well. FFP allows your reticle and turrets to ALWAYS match exactly. Do you want that to be the case, or are you happy with "...ehhh, I think it was close. Maybe lug around a couple other gadgets and rangefinders to check"?
4) That's at best a poor review, if looking at the whole. For a given scope, fine. But I can find you a turd in a SFP also, so take it for what it is. A 32x scope at max, shooting to 200 yards is going to be an issue for reticle size. But unless you are a short-range bullseye shooter, that is a fabrication story to confuse you.
5) Swaro has had the Chinese making things for them, for a very long time. If you spec a turd, you get a turd; not exactly fair to claim it was the Chinese' fault when your favorite scope company asked for it. LOW which is "japanese" glass, has plants in the phillipeans and china, no one bats an eye at that.... Take a superstition for what it is.

Personally I have had several Pre-XTR-II Burris scopes and wasn't impressed. Can't tell you anything first hand about the SI scopes. I do have several of the Primary Arms 4-14x FFP mil/mil scopes, and have reviewed it here on this board. For the $230 they want for them, they flat embarased the SWFA 3-15 HD scope; not even close, and the SWFA is $750!!
So is the PA the second coming?? Of course not. A Weaver Tactical 3-15 (#800363) is notably better glass all around, and sells for about what the SWFA does. The trick with the PA is what you get for the money spent. MZ5, who posts little these days has shot a few of my PA's. He is cross-eyed and goofy to start off :p. But seriously, he doesn't like the quality of the image when we shoot at great distances. While I agree that it isn't stellar, it also isn't a hinderance to me. Yes I would like the quality of my Weaver, but it is acceptable to me, and cost a third as much. My first PA tracks consistently, but isn't exact; the second is. The minor amount that it is off, can easily be adjusted for, and isn't the only thing that would be the reason for a miss when you get to 1K or beyond. Unless you are the wind whisperer, the scope isn't the largest potential for error. My first PA has over 2,000 rounds of Creedmoor fired through it, a couple hundred rounds of 308, a tumble down a hill while strapped to a 4-wheeler, and several trips to AZ and back while rattling on the floorboards. Short of cosmetics, the scope is none the worse for wear.

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Originally Posted by Charlie98

32x??? Good heavens. And clarity is decent even at full mag?

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Absolutely. My other "best" scope is a pretty old Leupold 24x fixed power scope I bought at a gun show for $350. It had a couple issues so I sent it back to Leupold and they replaced several parts and gave it a tune up for free. I actually bought the Leupold first, then after getting a taste of what a good optic was supposed to look like bought the sightron.

With the exception of shooting to 300M with a peep sighted M-16 when I was 19 and had good eyes, I am SuperNoob as far as scopes and LR shooting; I've not shot over 100yds in almost 30 years. The Bushnell on the Savage at the moment is about 25 years old and has glass as clear as a Coke bottle (well, maybe...) Once I scope this Savage, that's probably it... I don't obsess with everything new and improved, I like what works, and I don't really have any other rifle to swap scopes around on.

Based on comments above...

I buy reloading components in bulk... so 1-2K bullets, 8-16lb powder at a time. My handloads I fired this past weekend shot better than the FGMM I use as my benchmark.

I don't hunt, at least I won't be with this rifle.

I'm not against Leupold scopes, and now that I know how to compare them to other equivalent scopes, I see they are right in there, price-wise. Interesting. 442, I see the VX3i you are talking about...

I assumed there was a downside to SFP, I see that is the case. Ok, Ok... I'll make sure the turrets and the reticle match.

The particular review I read was on the Burris XTR, so I was sort of curious about it. As far as Burris scopes, a friend of mine has a XTR 1-4x24... decent enough scope, if not the brightest, but I blame that on the small lens. It sucks at 100yds.

My eyes are not the best, I have a very hard time with visual focus looking through a dim scope (my Bushnell) at a dim target... that's why I'm trying to find the best glass I can afford. Magnification helps... I put 3 rounds into 1/2" at 100yds with my friend's RPR with the SIG 24x scope with ease (I think I had it set at about 18x.)

Off to go research what I've learned so far... :cool:

Would the (professor) mind explaining why the reticle and turrets always need to match?
So If a person prefers a fine cross hair, or a single dot reticle, does that still apply?
Learning to use a dial is the real issue and not the type dial or reticle it is.
I can see where there would be an advantage if you are a competitor in some type events, especially when time is an issue.
But for most casual shooters who just want to dial up so they can hit something it dosent really matter.

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Originally Posted by yobuck

Would the (professor) mind explaining why the reticle and turrets always need to match?
So If a person prefers a fine cross hair, or a single dot reticle, does that still apply?
Learning to use a dial is the real issue and not the type dial or reticle it is.
I can see where there would be an advantage if you are a competitor in some type events, especially when time is an issue.
But for most casual shooters who just want to dial up so they can hit something it dosent really matter.

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It will be easier even for the casual shooter to make adjustments especially with spotted misses if they have a reticle that matches the turrets. There's no guessing. You can quickly see if you missed by .5 Mils or 2 MOA etc. It makes zeroing the scope easier as well. The problem is that shooters don't understand the reticle and how many ways it can be used beyond milling targets etc. I don't care what type of shooting I'm doing I want something that matches my scope turrets. If fine crosshairs is your preference there's plenty of scopes out there now that offer a solid reticle with measurements on it, but with a point dot in the center like the Kahles K624i with SKMR3 or open crosshairs like the vortex EBR2C reticle. Once you learn how to use these type of reticles you'll never go back to fine crosshairs etc. To much information and instant feedback is provided to the shooter with these type of set ups.

Well apparently the one shot zero method like many other things has become obsolete.

I would take a hard look at the new Leupold vx-3i LRP (long range precision) line up. I have a few PA 4-14's and for the price they can not be beat. I would recommend FFP with matching turrets/reticle, for all the reasons listed above. In the long run you will be glad you went this route. I have experience with PA , Leupold, Vortex, Nikon, and NF. I was saving for an XTR II when Leupold dropped the new LRP line. It has everything you need. FFP, TMR ( mil reticle), you can get MOA if you like, target turrets with zero stop. Great glass for the money. And it comes in at 10-12 oz lighter and a hundred bucks cheaper than the XTR II. You also get leupolds outstanding warranty and customer service.

Go with a Sightron and don't look back. You won't be disappointed.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

At distance optics are everything. You can't hit what you can't see. Spend money on good quality optics and you'll never go wrong. Buy once. Cry once. Some of my scopes have sat on numerous rifles. Rifles have sold but the scopes remain.

As a F-Class shooter one of the more important things to me in a scope is elevation adjustment. If you run out of elevation at 1k all you have left is hold over which doesn't work well with me or go with a 20MOA base and forget shooting at 100.

Since my brain works best in inches I run MOA and SFP. It what I have always used and I really don't like the reticule to obscure my view at high magnifications.

I have a NF SHV 5-20x56 MOAR on my antelope rifle it has plenty of adjustment to run 1K. Also with the reticule hash marks I can easily do holdover or windage adjustment without dialing if the need arises. I like the zero set turret. Easy to dial down to 100yd zero without having to remember which hash mark to line up with.. The eye box is not as critical as the Benchrest models and easier to line up on. New they are at the high end of your budget. You can find them used on eBay in your budget.

For the money, I don't think you can beat the burris veracity. Ffp, zero stop, good glass, and built like a tank

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Originally Posted by yobuck

Would the (professor) mind explaining why the reticle and turrets always need to match?
So If a person prefers a fine cross hair, or a single dot reticle, does that still apply?
Learning to use a dial is the real issue and not the type dial or reticle it is.
I can see where there would be an advantage if you are a competitor in some type events, especially when time is an issue.
But for most casual shooters who just want to dial up so they can hit something it dosent really matter.

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Why, in God's holy name, would ANYONE purposely choose a scope whose reticle does not match the turrets? If that's all you have, and have come accustomed to a
n awkward, silly design, so be it. But why, pray tell, would you recommend someone purposely choose such a model?

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Originally Posted by foxx

Why, in God's holy name, would ANYONE purposely choose a scope whose reticle does not match the turrets? If that's all you have, and have come accustomed to a
n awkward, silly design, so be it. But why, pray tell, would you recommend someone purposely choose such a model?

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:amen:
Thinks it's a case of all he's ever known.
If someone here needs a reason to punch themselves in the face, I may have a few mis-matched dogs left. Been using them as targets in some videos and as a bullet test medium. Only fitting use for them I could find. :D

Well since the question is aimed directly at me, let me at least attempt to reply in a manner that can be understood, at least by those with unfixed curious minds.
Now that in and of itself is a tough call, due to so many who actually have never even used a scope to attain the results they talk about.
But this is the internet.
For example, on one of the post here it was said reaching 1000 yds might be an issue, but by using a 20 minit base on the gun, 100 yds might then also be an issue.
Meanwhile in the real world, my youngest son has a 40 minit base on a gun that is in fact zeroed for 100 yds.
Not saying that would always work, but without actually trying, you wont actually know, AND, that is the issue with much of this stuff.
Much of what is said and thought to be true, hasent been actually verified by those commenting.
Now I guess its best I repeat (AGAIN), that for certain type target shooting, it might be an advantage to have a reticle and turret match.
But the world of long range shooting, or any shooting, dosent just revolve around target shooters, much as some seem to think and attempt to convey that it does.
And frankly, that's always been the case with many target shooters, al least some of the very good ones ive spent time around.

First off, in some competition, it dosent matter where the bullets impact the target, so long as they hit the target.
Fact is the 1000 yd group record was held by the same guy for about 14 years with an old fixed power Leupold scope.
A big part of the issue today is that it is no longer good enough to just hit what your aiming at, where in past years that's all that mattered.
Its now become very important to have everything figured out (properly) before sending off a shot, and if by some off chance you might miss, with the proper equiptment setup the next shot will be a hit.
Does that sound about right?
QUESTION, Does anybody know what one shot zero means or is?
QUESTION, Does anybody know what to do with an older scope if by chance your shot hits 2' to the right at say 1200 yds?
I mean 2' is 2' wether you used a new model matching scope or an old one right?
For a shooter, it makes no freaking difference.
Got that? It makes no freaking difference.
Assuming you happen to be unfortunate enough to have an unmatching scope, and your just an average Joe, meaning not someone attempting to be the second coming of say David Tubbs, or maybe a Canadian sniper, while using your home brewed 260 Savage, there is at least some dim ray of hope.

True story from last fall deer season.
Due to some personal issues, I wasent at our camp for the first 3 days of the PA buck season last year. Only the second time in 69 seasons.
My oldest son now 54, with his 15 year old daughter was there however.
He has since age 12 only hunted long range, unless its a poor day for weather.
He cut his teeth so to speak, with a Unertle target scope because that's all there was at that time.

His gun is a 7x300 Weatherby on a 700 action, with a 9 twist 30" varmit weight Hart barrel, and a nice laminated thumbhole stock.
A 6.5X20 80s era Leupold scope still having shims under the rear base is on that gun.
First day one of our old lookouts produced nothing. Second day they were supposed to leave by late afternoon in order to have her home early enough to make school on Wed.
So that meant hunting at the camp, or at least close by.
About 2 hours at the camp glassing from the yard showed nothing.
So he decided to go to a nearby lookout a few miles away, but when he arrived there the lookout was occupied, so he continued up the road further and found another one unoccupied.
Problem was we had never hunted or fired a shot from that location.
But he carried the gun, the portable bench, and the 2 sets of large tripod glasses about 150' down the steep hill to the location.
About that time, he realized he hadn't brought a rangefinder from the camp.
But chances are we wont see anything to shoot at anyway, so lets just finish out the last day hunting for his daughter for that year.
BUT, after about 10 minits glassing, he found a legal buck laying alone on the farthest point away from their position.
Not a good, but also not a bad spot for a shot. So he got the gun set up on the bench, and GUESSED the yardage to the deer.
He figured it best to be wrong high, than wrong low, due to where the buck was laying. In other words there might not be a follow up shot if she splashed dirt on the deer.
He watched the bullet fly over the deer by a decent amount which caused it to jump to its feet, but not run off.
He got off his glasses, went to the gun and held on the deer and just spun the dial to about where he felt it should be, got back on his glasses and told her to shoot.
Second shot hit the deer high in the front leg just below the body, and he moved about 50' closer to them, then stopped.
He told her where to hold for the 3rd shot, and that was all it took.
Three shots, no rangefinder, 15 year old not very experienced shooter, who listened to what she was told to do, by a guy who knew what to do, because that's how he was taught.
And there my friends is the real issue here.
It turned out to be about an 850 yd shot, determined by counting the clicks when he went back to zero.
And no, she didn't make it home for school the next day. lol
In fact they were almost all of the next day getting the deer to the vehicle.
While I'm at it, there is one more little issue for all the chest thumpers who bristle when they hear the word bench being used.
Think whatever you wish, but you or no one else could have killed that buck from that location or most others we shoot from, without one.
Anytime anybody wants to challenge what I'm saying, you would be more than welcome to come make a liar out of me, or possibly even learn something.
There is a major difference between actual hunting long range, and taking pot shots at animals standing in a field and hoping one falls over.
In summation, I say buy whatever you like, but be ready for it to become obsolete before you get home.

^^^ You did not answer my question, Yobuck.

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Originally Posted by foxx

^^^ You did not answer my question, Yobuck.

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Actually I did, but since you don't understand due to your limited knowledge of the subject, you didn't realize it.
I don't mean that as a put down in any way, but it is non the less a fact and you know it.
Reread the part where I said it (makes no freaking difference), because for somebody (knowing) how to use
a scope it actually dosent.
(PREFERENCE) is an entirely different thing than (must have), and preference by the way is perfectly fine with me.
But the fact is many have chosen their (Preference) by reading about somebody elses (preference) on the internet, and then become convinced that if mine is different than theirs its because ive fallen short somewhere.
Weve got guys here who talk about shooting 308s with a cheap scope out to a mile on a regular bases and it dosent raise an eyebrow.
You know why? because he knows where he can and where he cant get away with saying things like that, and he dosent go to places he knows he cant.

Not having a scope with matching turret/reticle isn't even a slight obstacle for an experienced shooter for most situations he might encounter.
I don't know how else I can answer that in a way to satisfy you.

You STILL have not answered my question. LOL

I will rephrase it...

What ADVANTAGE does a scope with mismatched turrets have over one whose turrets match the reticle?

The fact your friends and relatives can just spin the turrets and find it's proper elevation by "feel" does not demonstrate that mismatching turrets are better, especially when there are so few hunters and shooters out there with your superior experience and keen sense of marksmanship.

BTW, I found your story and the hunter's willingness to attempt such a shot reprehensible.

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Originally Posted by foxx

You STILL have not answered my question. LOL

I will rephrase it...

What ADVANTAGE does a scope with mismatched turrets have over one whose turrets match the reticle?

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I don't recall saying there was an advantage of owning one without over one with.
But I did say it dosent matter assuming you know what your doing.
And ill say again, that's the major problem here.
But I will furnish names of 25 guys you can ask that question to.
Be prepared that some might still be killing with Unertles. lol

You ridiculed someone who advised against buying a scope with mismatched reticles. Given the fact scopes with matching reticles are a common place today, I have to agree with him. Scoffing the idea as a sign of poor shooting skills is childish and boorish. Just another opportunity to flex your muscles, pump up yourself up and say "a REAL man, like me, can shoot well without such conveniences. "

What a JOKE!

Don't make me pull this forum over and come back there!

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Originally Posted by MrFurious

Don't make me pull this forum over and come back there!

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Thank you Sensei for reminding me that in the world of the internet there are many keyboard snipers...… Almost as many as there are Navy SEALS…

At this point......"What Difference does it make"

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

At this point......"What Difference does it make"

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Actually, it does make a difference. I'm not an Operator or Sniper, and I don't play one on TV, but I want to learn to shoot my nice, new Savage .308 at distance with a proper scope. I have zero experience with not only shooting at distances beyond 300M, but with any scope at all beyond 100M.

Math isn't my strong point. Having matching reticles and turrets seems to make sense, and why wouldn't you if you have the opportunity? I'm still confused about the whole MIL vs MOA difference, but from what I've seen, it doesn't really make a difference once you learn one system or another... i.e. 1/4" vs .10" (assuming I have that correct.)

Yes, I understand I'm at a disadvantage shooting this olllllld .308 round over the new-fangled 6.5CM or other, particularly at ranges past 600M, but that is what I have and what I'm committed to.

Best thing you can do is read, read, and read some more to educate yourself. Lots of good YouTube videos out there as well to help you learn. The MOA v. MIL debate has been debated ad nauseam on every gun forum on the internet, so it's just a matter of doing your homework and determining which is the best fit for you or which makes the most sense/is easiest to understand to you. Everybody has their own preference, and asking on a forum such as this will just get you a bunch of biased opinions.

While I'm no fan of the .308 for long-range shooting it's capable and can get the job done as is proven every year at Camp Perry and other such events.

FYI: MIL scopes don't have .10" clicks, they are 1/10th of a MIL clicks. 1 MIL = 3.6", so 1/10th of that would be 0.36".

The 308 is plenty capable if loaded for correctly. If you're shooting factory ammo buy quality match anmo. 175 FGMM or Black Hills etc.

If reloading for it it's hard to beat the Berger 185 Juggernaut. Or the 208 ELD. They'll take a little longer to get to their destination and require a little more elevation, but the high BC pills will match the 6.5 in the wind. The biggest downside to the 308 is recoil in comparison to the 6.5 or 6. I started with 308 and was quite successful, but due to competition went to the 6. Now I'm giving 6.5 a try due to the benefits of barrel life.

As far as scopes go it's based on your budget. Get the best you can and ensure everything is properly mounted nice and straight.

You don't need a high magnification optic. That only comes into play as a nice to have option, but not necessary to be successful. Everyone is going to have a different opinion especially when you start comparing the old guys to the young guys. Those that generally shoot in the woods or on a range. Those that shoot from a bench or prone etc.

While a lot of scopes out there will get the job done there's a number of features that make it easier. And the current top shooters in the world will agree.

1. Clear Glass
2. Repeatable accurate tracking
3. FFP
4. Matching Reticle/Turrets
5. Reticle with built in measurements

The latest PRS ELR match was won with a Khales K624i on a 300Norma Mag shooting factory Lapua Naturalis ammunition. Point is even a match where most targets are beyond 1200yds these are features the top shooters want. The King of 2 Miles competition is coming up this weekend. You will see the same. Top shooters in the PRS look to the Gen2 Razor, NF ATACR F1, S&B's, And Khales. There's a few others out there and lots of lower budget optics, but the ones that are successful all have the 5 features I mentioned above. A good quality scope should be like putting on glasses for the first time when you look through it!

Now going back to budget. I started with an SWFA fixed 12x with mil turrets and the mil-quad reticle. For $300 it was plenty clear and tracked accurately as far as I shot it with good dope it was plenty accurate for a new shooter.

When I upgraded to the Gen1 Vortex Razor low and behold my scores improved and my consistency went up. It was the same when I upgraded to the Gen2 Razor I still run today.

Point being is that a better optic makes shooting more fun and much easier simply because you can see better.

So get the best you can and look for those features. I've shot enough different venues and have seen the improvement of hundreds of shooters and what works best. Every time this topic gets asked there's an argument.

The best thing you can do is try to find a reputable match venue within driving distance and go check out what shooters are topping their rifles with!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^^^There you go, along with what Mr. Furious said.

I am sorry I let an old braggart get under my skin.

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Originally Posted by Charlie98

Actually, it does make a difference. I'm not an Operator or Sniper, and I don't play one on TV, but I want to learn to shoot my nice, new Savage .308 at distance with a proper scope. I have zero experience with not only shooting at distances beyond 300M, but with any scope at all beyond 100M.

Math isn't my strong point. Having matching reticles and turrets seems to make sense, and why wouldn't you if you have the opportunity? I'm still confused about the whole MIL vs MOA difference, but from what I've seen, it doesn't really make a difference once you learn one system or another... i.e. 1/4" vs .10" (assuming I have that correct.)

Yes, I understand I'm at a disadvantage shooting this olllllld .308 round over the new-fangled 6.5CM or other, particularly at ranges past 600M, but that is what I have and what I'm committed to.

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My advice is to find a F-Class match at a club close to you. You will see the 308 in action. There will also be the fancy calibers there too. Attend either as a spectator or if you feel comfortable bring your scoped rifle, a bipod, rear rest, something to lay on. and compete. Talk to competitors. Ask questions. You will find that most competitors are very friendly and willing to share a wealth of information. There is a lot you can learn and observe at a match.

PS.
My comment on internet snipers was certainly not directed at youCharlie98. We are here to learn and share real life experiences.
I was about to engage in internet stupidity from a previous comment that referenced something I said. MrFurious' comment reminded that I should not engage. I too am neither an operator, sniper, or SEAL....

As for .308 factory match ammo, Buffalo Bore makes a good one also. Their marketing propaganda claims it as a "sniper" round (which I think is silly and ignorant, but whatever). I have not shot any for a few years, since I started handloading, but I can tell you that it shot as good if not better than Federal Ultra Match (175 gr.) in a couple of my rifles. Of, course, someone else's experience with it may vary. Just sharing this info for others who may want to try it out.

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OOPS..... I meant Federal Gold Medal Match, not Ultra. Ultra is the small bore ammo I shoot in my benchrest H&R Model 12. WHICH by the way is topped with a 32X SII Sightron.....

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charlie98

Actually, it does make a difference. I'm not an Operator or Sniper, and I don't play one on TV, but I want to learn to shoot my nice, new Savage .308 at distance with a proper scope. I have zero experience with not only shooting at distances beyond 300M, but with any scope at all beyond 100M.

Math isn't my strong point. Having matching reticles and turrets seems to make sense, and why wouldn't you if you have the opportunity? I'm still confused about the whole MIL vs MOA difference, but from what I've seen, it doesn't really make a difference once you learn one system or another... i.e. 1/4" vs .10" (assuming I have that correct.)

Yes, I understand I'm at a disadvantage shooting this olllllld .308 round over the new-fangled 6.5CM or other, particularly at ranges past 600M, but that is what I have and what I'm committed to.

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Since your post, there has been some good advice, and MrFurious gave you the technical part of the difference. Here is the practical bit, this assumes you would match your turrets and reticles.
MOA - The distance between your dots, or hashes in the reticle is 1 moa. Your turrets would likely be 1/4 moa, meaning you have 4 clicks of adjustment between the dots.
MIL - The distance between dots is 1 Mil. Most turrets are 1/10 mil, so you have 10 clicks of adjustment between the dots.

The part everyone screws up, is the simplicity, at least of a FFP. On a matched reticle/turret FFP scope, the reticle is ALWAYS the same size relative to the target. Turn the magnification up and the target and reticle both grow at the same rate. So the specific linear distance on target you missed by is irrelevant. Focus on how far off you were in the reticle, then adjust accordingly with whatever system you use.
The problem with the whole rant of "2" is 2"", that ASSumes you can accurately discern what 2" looks like at 300 yards, or 1,000 yards. If using the reticle all you need to do is look at how many mils, or moa you missed by and adjust. The reticle is your measuring stick, not a linear measurement that you can't do without going to the target.

Whether the Creed, 308 or something else, get yourself a GOOD ballistic calculator; it will help you learn quickly. Personally I like Shooter, but use what you wish. You will learn that it really isn't that hard to get bullets where you want, and most of the time you don't need a canted base rail. Most folks don't really know how much drop it takes to get somewhere, how much the atmosphere plays with that number, or how little adjustment many scopes actually offer. The PA scopes have as much adjustment as some of the best Nightforce scopes.

If you want to get REALLY far, then bullet choice becomes important; but not just sexy BC. Many bullets use a steep tail angle to get a sexy BC, which assures that they can never safely cross Trans-sonic. When the atmosphere changed at Camp Perry, that's when everyone realized that the sexy BC 168gr Sierra wouldn't cross trans-sonic. That is also the specific reason why the military gave Sierra free-range with their doppler system to create the 175 SMK. Hornady can caim they have a new super awesome magic system, but that stuff has been used for many many decades.
Do a little digging and you'll see some of my posts where I shoot the 308 to a mile, The bullets are going slower than snot, but will easily get there pointy side forward.

Just my opinion

You aren't planning to be a PRS competitor right? You just want an optic you can learn to shoot your 308 at 600 yrds and eventually to 1000?

Age old arguments on all the shooting forums.. mil vs moa front focal plane vs second focal plane

Lets look at who uses what

Mil-FFP the military, the tactical crowd and competitor's who need rapid range estimates

MOA-SFP target shooters and most hunters

I say pick the one you are most comfortable with. Both work just fine. Lots of.strong opinions out there. Don't let them decide for you

Lots of.good scopes out there. Lots of junk too. And a few exceptional ones. I am old and need all the.magnification i can get. When i was 20 a 10X was all i needed. Now my target scopes top magnification is in the 40 to 60 power. All depends on what you pocketbook can stand. I would not pick something with less than a top magnification of 24X.

Low end vortex PRS or Luepold 3i and up from there

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foxx

You ridiculed someone who advised against buying a scope with mismatched reticles. Given the fact scopes with matching reticles are a common place today, I have to agree with him. Scoffing the idea as a sign of poor shooting skills is childish and boorish. Just another opportunity to flex your muscles, pump up yourself up and say "a REAL man, like me, can shoot well without such conveniences. "

What a JOKE!

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Well weve both been around here long enough that you should know better than to make those comments.
I have never on a single occaision attempted to call attention to my personal shooting ability, or any other ability I might or might not have.
Never posted pics of groups ive shot, guns I own or built, or animals ive shot, so I will simply let what you said speak for itself.
By and large ive attempted to encourage (average Joe) into believing he can do it if he tries, because I know for a fact he can, and the story of my 15 year old grand daughter was an attempt to illustrate that.

As for the purchase of a (new) scope, I haven't as I recall, attempted to encourage one brand over another, other than to mention the problem with the (one) Vortex) we have.
I have not said a good quality scope with matching turret and reticle is a bad idea, ive simply attempted to convey they aren't necessary at least for everybody, and especially if you understand how to use the dial.
I also firmly believe a good used scope is a good idea for most shooters, many of my own have been just that.
I have a 5 year old Nightforce NXS 8x32 on one of my guns, and it dosent have matching turrets/reticle.
I also have a 8.5x25 Leupold with 1/4 min clicks and a varmit hunter reticle on another gun.
(For what we do), which is strictly hunt, and casual long range rock/target shooting, I personaly see no real advantage of one scope over the other.
In fact, I had a vintage 6x24 Bausch&Lomb Balvar target scope with a Kuharsky micrometer rear mount on the gun now having the Nightforce, and I'm not totally convinced changing scopes was a worthwhile idea for me.
Has anybody here compared (clean) 50s and 60s era Bausch&Lomb optics to modern stuff ?
Probably not, but again stop around the camp, and ill let you do that.

Lone Wolf has just posted very good information, and coming from an experienced target shooter it would be wise to listen to what he said.
Visiting sanctioned matches of any type is an excellent thing to do.
Realize one thing when you do however, and I say this with tongue in cheek.
You wont be finding many there, who are just there for a fun day shooting and hanging out with friends.
Its about winning, truth be told, its all about winning, at least with most of them.
They will be doing whatever it takes to win if they can afford to, and some will even if they cant.
So naturaly the very latest and the very best optics will be a high priority.
Read what he said and it proves my point, that being that scopes have improved his shooting score, and that's a good thing, (for him).

Five or six years ago we bought a Savage I believe FCP or something like that for my grandson.
It was listed as a police model, fairly heavy with a detachable mag, fluted barrel, and a muzzle brake.
It came in 308 and 338 Lapua, and we got him the 308.
This was not intended as a carrying around gun for him, simply a rock shooting gun .
I picked the gun up and asked what mount and scope they had they could put right on it.
The guy recommended a DNZ mount, and after looking at it I agreed so he put it on the gun.
I picked out a Nikon Buckmaster varieable scope, which as I recall goes to about 16 power.
When I got back to camp I cleaned the gun and loaded up a few rounds for it.
First group of 5 shots could have been covered by a nickle, which for me is better than good.
One of the best groups I ever shot with any gun.
The mountain straight across from our camp offers ranges from 400 to just over 900 yds.
We can get to 1450 off to the left, and out to over 3400 off to the right, which weve never attempted to do.
That kid has sent 100s of rounds thru that gun at rocks up to 900 over there with no issues at all with the scope.
He came very close to taking a porcupine off a tree branch at just about max distance, and if the wind wasent blowing as hard he no doubt would have.
But he did make porkey back up and get behind the tree.
A 308 can teach you an awfull lot about shooting within its limits, and most of our practice shooting is done with 308s.
I personaly have a 700 Rem with a varmit weight 26" barrel with a Leupold 3.5x10 VX3 scope on it, but it dosent shoot like that Savage.

To the OP, just put a scope on the gun and go shoot it.
If you don't have access to a chronagraph, just pick a close number for velocity and go to a site like JBM and make up just a basic click chart.
You will be shocked how well you will do right from the get go, and you can upgrade the chart as you go by shooting, which is the best information anyway.
Its so easy even kids can do it. lol

^^^That's all good, Yobuck, But, if a guy is going to go out and buy a scope with mil dots or MOA dots, it only makes good sense to get one that has turrets to match. Being new, he might not know enough to look for that detail and end up getting one that's crossed-up. I've done it, and it was a mistake. Bought it on line thinking it was a good deal and returned itr as soon as I saw what it was. Having turrets and reticles that did not match made it not such a good deal anymore.

Of course, encouraging someone to just go out and shoot without getting too bogged down trying to decide exactly what equipment to buy (and therefore never actually get out and shoot) is always a good thing. Discouraging someone from asking good questions to get an idea of what to look for and what to avoid is not a good thing. That said, if you're gonna confound good advice offered when it's asked for, please have a reason other than "if you know how to use the tools you're given, you don't need anything different that what you have, 'cuz in the old days, when men were men, you learned how to make do."

THat's all I have to say on this topic.

Just to restate... I already have a scope on it... a 3-9x? Bushnell, and I've got about 300rds through the rifle so far. I'm not a noob to shooting, but I am to LR shooting, and to optics. Because I am older, and my eyes suck, I do really need good glass and decent magnification. I do not intend to compete. As far as ammo... my handloads outshot the 168grn FGMM I use as a barometer in my .30 rifles, I've been reloading for almost 30 years. I didn't realize the Sierra 175 had a different design, I'll have to give them a try. I've never gone above 168grn because neither my M1 or M1a are really designed for it; the thought of a 208grn bullet is Fantasy Land to me... but I might give them a test-drive, too.

Blackthorn, no offense taken. I use that term a lot because it seems like everyone is trying to be someone; last week at the 100yd rifle range, there were 3 guys running around with assault vests on, shooting AR's that looked like they weighed 20# with all the crap on them. I just want to poke holes in paper at longer distances than I'm used to, but I want to learn to do it well... and correctly.

Reading on the internet and watching YouTube... and you think there's a difference of opinion here? :D So far I've gotten some really good info here at SS, and now I know what I need to be researching and looking for.

As it turns out, I have dibbs on a used Burris 4x20 scope that I think will fit the bill.

Depends on the twist rate of your barrel. In my somewhat limited experience, the 175 grain SMK's seem to do best in a 1 in 10" twist or tighter. If I remember correctly, the M1A has a 1 in 12".

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charlie98

Just to restate... I already have a scope on it... a 3-9x? Bushnell, and I've got about 300rds through the rifle so far. I'm not a noob to shooting, but I am to LR shooting, and to optics. Because I am older, and my eyes suck, I do really need good glass and decent magnification. I do not intend to compete. As far as ammo... my handloads outshot the 168grn FGMM I use as a barometer in my .30 rifles, I've been reloading for almost 30 years. I didn't realize the Sierra 175 had a different design, I'll have to give them a try. I've never gone above 168grn because neither my M1 or M1a are really designed for it; the thought of a 208grn bullet is Fantasy Land to me... but I might give them a test-drive, too.

Blackthorn, no offense taken. I use that term a lot because it seems like everyone is trying to be someone; last week at the 100yd rifle range, there were 3 guys running around with assault vests on, shooting AR's that looked like they weighed 20# with all the crap on them. I just want to poke holes in paper at longer distances than I'm used to, but I want to learn to do it well... and correctly.

Reading on the internet and watching YouTube... and you think there's a difference of opinion here? :D So far I've gotten some really good info here at SS, and now I know what I need to be researching and looking for.

As it turns out, I have dibbs on a used Burris 4x20 scope that I think will fit the bill.

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Just my opinion

You aren't planning to be a PRS competitor right? You just want an optic you can learn to shoot your 308 at 600 yrds and eventually to 1000?

Age old arguments on all the shooting forums.. mil vs moa front focal plane vs second focal plane

Lets look at who uses what

Mil-FFP the military, the tactical crowd and competitor's who need rapid range estimates

MOA-SFP target shooters and most hunters

I say pick the one you are most comfortable with. Both work just fine. Lots of.strong opinions out there. Don't let them decide for you

Lots of.good scopes out there. Lots of junk too. And a few exceptional ones. I am old and need all the.magnification i can get. When i was 20 a 10X was all i needed. Now my target scopes top magnification is in the 40 to 60 power. All depends on what you pocketbook can stand. I would not pick something with less than a top magnification of 24X.

Low end vortex PRS or Luepold 3i and up from there

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Banana Juice

Depends on the twist rate of your barrel. In my somewhat limited experience, the 175 grain SMK's seem to do best in a 1 in 10" twist or tighter. If I remember correctly, the M1A has a 1 in 12".

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My Savage has a 1:10, IIRC. The M1a is more limited by the gas system with heavy bullets, not necessarily the barrel twist. People shoot 175's, but running them long-term requires some adjustments to the gas system, or just running them at lower velocity. Trying to hotrod 175's in an M1a will usually result in broken stuff.

I started with 168's because I already have a good stock of them, and some known load data for them. The Savage does NOT like ~150grn bullets...

Yes sir, same here. My Savage has a 1 in 10" twist and loves the 175 SMK's. Bergers have shot well out of it also, but I have te tweak the loading just a bit. I have not tried anything heavier yet, but I do plan to experiment with my handloads and heavier bullets in the near future.....

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Originally Posted by foxx

^^^There you go, along with what Mr. Furious said.

I am sorry I let an old braggart get under my skin.

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Well what can I say, other than that was just another uncalled for cheap shot, and hopefully others will recognize it as that also.

I hope the OP got enough information to help him make a choice on his scope purchase, because that is the main issue here.

I also think that due to the rather recent influx of people becoming interested in the various aspects of long range shooting, it would be a good thing for a topic on scopes be started.
Not just a what scope do I need or should i buy type topic as this one was, but an in depth discussion on how they actually work, along with the various reticle and adjustment options, and the advantages each might have for certain type applications.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yobuck

I also think that due to the rather recent influx of people becoming interested in the various aspects of long range shooting, it would be a good thing for a topic on scopes be started.
Not just a what scope do I need or should i buy type topic as this one was, but an in depth discussion on how they actually work, along with the various reticle and adjustment options, and the advantages each might have for certain type applications.

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I was looking for a sticky of some sort before I posted, I think it would be a good idea. On one of the computer forums I frequent, they have a set of questions you copy/paste/answer as part of a post on a new system build... even something like 5 or 6 questions to get the basic info from the OP would probably help a lot and cut down on 'we need more info' posts, and it's why I structured my OP in that manner.

I go back to basic features. I am only a few years into shooting at distances past 100 yards. Do yourself a favor.

1. FFP
2. Matching turrets/reticle.
3. Target style turrets.
4. Zero stop if you can get it.
5. The best glass you can afford.

I think although there are many opinions, most will agree with the above list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleeper99

I go back to basic features. I am only a few years into shooting at distances past 100 yards. Do yourself a favor.

1. FFP
2. Matching turrets/reticle.
3. Target style turrets.
4. Zero stop if you can get it.
5. The best glass you can afford.

I think although there are many opinions, most will agree with the above list.

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For what he's looking to do I agree with everything but #1.

Everybody seems to think they need a FFP reticle all the sudden. Unless you're using your reticle to range and determine distance, the only thing a FFP does for you is drain more money from your wallet. It's also a hindrance if you're a precision target shooter (F-clas, benchrest, etc) as it makes the reticle larger/thicker as the magnification goes up, and depending on the reticle type and brand of scope it may be completely useless when set to the lowest magnification because it gets so small in the field of view. Doesn't make a lick of difference when a hit's a hit anywhere on a 12x12" steel plate, but if you're shooting paper for group or score it makes a world of difference. The OP said he's shooting at known distances which usually means a range, so no need to be able to range (he can still range with a SFP reticle at the specified ranging magnification when needed). Usually known distances also means he could be shooting at paper or steel targets.

FFP's are just the current fad, and much like bull barrels for AR's it will likely start to fade after a few more years. They have their place, but far too many think they need one when they would really be better served by a SFP scope for what they're doing.

Of course, if you want to avoid 3/4 of the scope stuff that's driving you crazy and instantly narrow down your options, choose to go with a fixed 10-16x scope. Military snipers have used them for decades, they're more robust and reliable as they have fewer moving parts, being fixed power they completely eliminate the need to choose between a FFP or SFP reticle, and IMO learning to shoot at distance with less magnification makes you a much better shooter in the long run. You can also often get much higher quality glass for the same money in a fixed power scope verses a similarly priced variable power, and you will find that with higher quality glass you don't need as much magnification.

Can't recall if you stated a budget price in an earlier post, so I will assume $1,000 for the sake of this post. I would recommend you seriously take a look at fixed power scopes from the SWFA SS line, the IOR Valdada Tactical models, or the Sightron SIII 10x42mm. All of these options are top quality scopes that have been around for years and are well proven.

Just something to consider...

I have a Sightron SIII 10x42 as mentioned above. I think this is one of the best scopes out there, period. For what it's worth, if I had to pick only one scope to use on any given rifle of known accuracy for a SHTF type situation, this is definitely it.

Also worth mentioning here..... I had a 10x Super Sniper. It was a good scope, but I sold it with a rifle as a package deal a couple years back. The 10x Sightron is better in every category across the board. It's also almost twice the price, but absolutely worth it. You definitely get what you pay for.....

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@Mr. Furious.
I would respectfully disagree that FFP scopes are a fad.

I frequently shoot alone, as I enjoy my range time as my quiet time. A FFP scope allows me to shoot at a lower magnification level (which you support) spot my own hits/misses and use my reticle to make easy adjustments. This would not be possible with s SFP scope unless used at maximum magnification with a limited field of view.

I believe that one of the reasons the military has used fixed power scopes for so long is for their increased durability and to allow the reticle sub tensions to always be correct. (Like a FFP variable scope)

I rarely shoot past 3-500 yards but I have not problem shooting paper for groups at those distances with FFP scopes and have only shoot steel at distances beyond 500.

I would agree that if you desire to shoot paper for groupings at 600-1000 the thickness of the reticle may be more of a factor.

I would agree with the fixed power scope, and also with Mr Mc Furious opinion on the FFP/SFP situation.
I have a fixed 10 power Bushnell tacticle scope on my 223 Savage model 12 and couldn't be happier with it.
Current price would be under $300 new and it has a mil dot reticle.
Also have a Sightron varieable on a 22/250 Ackley model 12 that never moves off 10 power.
I bought that used for $250 from a guy who needed a new Nightforce.
It has 1/8 minit clicks, but who cares, I don't count clicks anyway just minits, and the large numbers or a full rev on the dial produces the same as a 1/4 minit scope.
But, an 1/8 minit dial could be very important for a small bore competitor.
Zero stop, good idea, (But), you still gotta remember to dial back, its not automatic, and they can be pricey.
There are several little tiny allen head screws holding the turret cap on most scopes.
On some you just pick up the cap and rotate it.
You need to loosen those and place the dial on zero, then retighten them after your initial sighting in at 100 yds.
On at least a Leupold, and possibly others as well, you can cut a thin slice from a 12 gauge shotgun shell case
and install that on the turret for a zero stop.
Nightforce charges close to $300 for a zero stop, Bruce Baer who is a stocking dealer, charges $35.
But you gotta remember to dial back with his also lol, and sooner or later everybody forgets.
Best to do as little dialing as possible, especially when hunting.
I would suggest looking up, and reading up, on a (Horus reticle) and form a picture of that in your mind.
Remember, that same principle applies to any scope, regardless of type reticle, type of dial, or focal plane.
Hold on the target where the last bullet hit for your follow up shot, and forget the dial.
Unless of coarse your a precision target shooter.