When to give up on rifle?

I am out of ideas and patience. I have a savage Model 11 .308 ( hog hunter). I have had the gun from about 3 years. If you not familiar the rifle has a 20” medium weight threaded barrel with 1-10 twist. It comes with savage’s plastic stock and has iron sights. The stock has been replaced and the iron sights removed. It has a Vortex Viper 4x12x40 for glass. Yesterday I reached my tipping point with it. I can’t for the life of life of me get it to shoot. At 105 yards it groups at 1.5-2.25 inches at 208 yards it jumps to the 6-8 inch groups, neither of which I feel is adequate. I have only gone out to 300 yards once with and it produced 12-15 inch group. I haven’t gone further out with due to the lack of accuracy. I have tired the following. The original bases and rings (Warne) have been removed and remounted x3 every time installed and torqued to spec. I have tried the following scopes Viper 4x12, Diamondback4x12, Leupold VXll 3x9, and a Primary arms1x6. I switched to a DNZ one piece mount and tried 3 out of 4 of the previous listed scopes.
As for ammo, It dislikes all 150 gr I have used. Which includes Remington cor-lockt, Hornady interlock, and Federal PSP. Moving up to the 165-168 gr. I have tired Hornady A-max and BTHP match, Federal Gold medal match, and BTHP match from Armscor. And finally 180gr hunting loads from Remington, Hornady, Federal, and Winchester. The heavier rounds group better but still not what I would consider good.
The stock has been replaced with one from Stockade gunstocks and torqued to their specs , trigger is set at 2.5 pounds. The barrel is free floated and Stockade doesn’t recommend bedding the action when using their stocks

My other .308 is a Remington 700 ADL 22inch barrel with the factory wood stock with a Vortex diamondback 4x12x40. The gun was bought new in 83/84 by my father. He is gone and it became mine. It is as factory as you can get. Even with the factory trigger set at around 6 pounds I can still shoot better with it by a considerable amount. Remington 150gr Cor-lockt produces three shot groups of at or below 1 inch at 100 yards, 2.5 at 200yds, 3.5-4.0 at 300yds, and 5.0-5.25 at 400yds. I am sure those could be improved if the trigger would be tuned or replaced, but I figure why mess with it. I know those numbers might not be that impressive to some but I am pleased with them especially using the Remington round. So I don’t think it’s me or maybe the Remington is that good.


Am I missing something obvious? I have been trying to think of something else to use, do, or try but I also starting to think I am might just have a money pit. At this point I want to sell\trade it away and move on. My Savage is like a bad girlfriend, I keep trying to make it work and she just keeps being a Bi*ch. Sorry for the long post.

After shooting that much I would get rid of the copper and carbon and start with some 175 match bullets. Your past time to send it back.

First I would put it back on the original stock and see if it shot worse, better, or the same. If the same or worse I would get rid of it or rebarrel.

I have compared targets that I kept from when it had the original plastic stock on it and I Cannot see any significant difference between from the starting point to where I'm at now. And yes I'm that guy who keeps paper targets in folders so I can go back and look at them. Lol.

I had the same problem with a ruger mark 2 in .308. You just don't expect that from a .308...
I had the trigger adjusted (massaged), the rifle then was bedded. Still not a shooter.
I hand load and tried all sorts of bullets from 150 gr 165gr and 180 gr. Still no go.
A beautiful rifle which I had bought NEW about 6 years ago. My ruger 300 win mag and 270 both shoot 3/4 inches at 100.
Finally sold it last fall and bought a 22-250 model 12.
Good luck with yours.

Regards,

Dan

Have you called Savage?

I did talk to savage about halfway through the three-year process. Not trying to knock savage but they weren't a whole bunch of help. They put the 2 inch group @ 100 onto the Remington cor-lockt ammunition and I was advised to try some of the federal ammunition. Federal gold medal match using a lead sled for the shooting platform was what the inch and a half group was achieved with. They also advised try to check bases,rings, and the scope

A list of thing I'd check, the crown, next pull the barrel, is the receiver square, are both locking lugs making good contact? Is the recoil lug and barrel nut in good shape?

I gotta think it's the barrel. If it were mine i would replace the barrel and, if it shoots, toss the original barrel. That might be more money than you wanna spend. If so, I would sell the whole rifle with a disclosure it doesn't shoot. (someone should buy it for the action) Problem is, there are so many good deals out there on new rifles you might not get much for it.

You have a good action and a great stock. A barrel from one of the prefit barrel makers out there and you are in business. Lots of chamberings go with that bolthead.

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Originally Posted by rmauch

The stock has been replaced with one from Stockade gunstocks and torqued to their specs , trigger is set at 2.5 pounds. The barrel is free floated and Stockade doesn’t recommend bedding the action when using their stocks.

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I don't care what the manufacturer says if I spent money on a new custom stock, I'm going to bed it. I want everything to have a custom fit, it just makes me feel better about things. However, I don't think this is you issue.

I'd replace the barrel, since you're already in so deep with the rifle. I might sell, but only if if youwant could put it back to original. A barrel is really all you have left that you can do easily.

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Originally Posted by rmauch

Am I missing something obvious? I have been trying to think of something else to use, do, or try but I also starting to think I am might just have a money pit. At this point I want to sell\trade it away and move on. My Savage is like a bad girlfriend, I keep trying to make it work and she just keeps being a Bi*ch. Sorry for the long post.

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Life is too short to tollerate a bad girlfriend, or spend 3 years with a crap barrel. The obvious thing I would have done long ago was to re-crown it, but at this point I think Foxx has you steered in the correct direction. IF you want this rifle, throw the barrel in the fire pit and move on, otherwise sell it and go to plan B.

I went over it again last night and double checked the things that were recommended here and on another form. I guess it's at best a 1.5 inch rifle with the current barrel. As you guys are stated that's really the only thing left to replace. At this point I think I'm just going to part ways with it. I know I'm going to take a loss on it, probably a considerable one, I'm just kind of done with it.

Been there too. Frustrating.

What sort of accuracy would be acceptable out of your 20" Hammer with factory ammo?

As far as you've gone with it I wouldn't part with it before trying a different barrel. Barrel swaps are easy. You could probably buy a used or new take off .308 barrel here in the classifieds cheap if you don't want to throw down the $300+ on a new custom tube.

You're almost all the way to having a nice semi custom rifle you just need to close the deal and get rid of the crap barrel.

Before trying anything else, I would contact Savage again and tell them it will not shoot any better than 3" at 100y. Let them swap the barrel for free.

Don't let them tell you to "try this try that blah blah blah" like they already did the first time you called them.

Just to eliminate everything, try using a different scope. I've sent more than my fair share of Vortex's back for free replacement. If another scope doesn't help at least you can cross it off the list.

What bothers me is not the poor shooting at 100, that can be a barrel or other factors.

Its the non linear opening up of the groups at 200-300. At worst that should be 5 inches at 200 and 8 at 300.

That gets into the shooter and you seem to be able to shoot another gun fine.

For a non linear result like that if it is not the shooter something is moving.

Have you checked the nut?

You have done more than due diligence on the scope and bases.

Even a bad barrel should stay linear. Once its off 2.5 inches at 100 it should be 5 at 200.

I would check the crown. There may be a burr or something inside the barrel from the rifling process, when you clean the gun does the patch go through the barrel smoothly? I've had barrels that open up enough to notice while cleaning. If after that I'd say throw a new barrel on it. I'd try to get Savage to do it before pulling money out of my own pocket, since you have had this problem previously.

Thanks for the responses. The Stockade stock is going to a new home here soon. I plan on keeping the scope and DNZ rings. The barrel and action should be on their way out shortly.

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Originally Posted by RC20

What bothers me is not the poor shooting at 100, that can be a barrel or other factors.

Its the non linear opening up of the groups at 200-300. At worst that should be 5 inches at 200 and 8 at 300.

That gets into the shooter and you seem to be able to shoot another gun fine.

For a non linear result like that if it is not the shooter something is moving.

Have you checked the nut?

You have done more than due diligence on the scope and bases.

Even a bad barrel should stay linear. Once its off 2.5 inches at 100 it should be 5 at 200.

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I'm not sure I can agree with you here. If a bad barrel is causing an unstable flight with a wobbly bullet, the wobble will increase as the bullet slows down and the innacuracy will get worst over distance. I don't think it would be a linear thing.

To OP, how do your bullets print? Are they keyholing on the paper or printing a nice round hole?

No key holeing. No vertical or Horizontal stringing. I don't have a target handy but basically the group look like an upside down triangle the rounds are hitting on the points.

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Originally Posted by PepeLapiu

I'm not sure I can agree with you here. If a bad barrel is causing an unstable flight with a wobbly bullet, the wobble will increase as the bullet slows down and the innacuracy will get worst over distance. I don't think it would be a linear thing.

To OP, how do your bullets print? Are they keyholing on the paper or printing a nice round hole?

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Thank you, I am not sure I agree either! Good point and good questions.

I have only one experience with a barrel so bad it was key-holing. I don't think that's possible short of a severe abused one (and that one was)

I did see the report on a deliberately wreaked crown (drills, hammered etc) , while it had some affect not nearly as much as has been reported and still linear.

Have you checked to make sure you have the proper 10 twist?

What's the best way to handle selling a rifle that doesn't perform well? I mean from a moral/ethical standpoint. Do you treat it as a buyer beware thing? If they ask why you are selling it, do you sugar coat the truth or do you tell them that accuracy sucks?

Well, I would not sell it. I would throw away the barrel and keep the action and trigger. So, if I were to sell it, I would say accuracy sucked. If the price was right, and it was offered for sale, I would buy it with the intention of replacing the barrel. In my opinion, anything short of that is flat-out dishonest and essentially theft. Full disclosure is called for.

I can't believe you're even asking this. If you were the buyer would you want the seller to be up front and honest?

I would stay the course and swap the barrel, however if you're determined to wash your hands of it I would sell it as a barreled action with an accuracy problem, presumably the barrel.

It's only "buyer beware" with honest disclosure!

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Originally Posted by 6.5savageguy

I can't believe you're even asking this. If you were the buyer would you want the seller to be up front and honest?

I would stay the course and swap the barrel, however if you're determined to wash your hands of it I would sell it as a barreled action with an accuracy problem, presumably the barrel.

It's only "buyer beware" with honest disclosure!

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Well I ask because I often see people post about unloading a poor shooter. I know it's always full disclosure for me when I sell anything. Given what I have read on various forums, I suspect all too often duds are being unloaded without full disclosure.

^^^^I assumed that was what you were thinking. I see that too often, too. My belief is, maybe, the seller has higher expectations then the general public. On the other hand, I also know of times I have had guns people said would not shoot and I get them shooting just fine. Depends on the circumstances. If I ever had one I knew would not shoot, I would definately say so, as I am sure you would.

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Originally Posted by dranrab

What's the best way to handle selling a rifle that doesn't perform well? I mean from a moral/ethical standpoint. Do you treat it as a buyer beware thing? If they ask why you are selling it, do you sugar coat the truth or do you tell them that accuracy sucks?

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Tell the truth. You don't want to be That Guy.

My experience: My father handed down a Frankenstein Remington 1100 to me that wouldn't function consistently. I tried/fixed everything, including opening up the gas ports. Like you, I finally got fed up with it and sold it.

I posted it on GunBroker, with a link to the long thread on ShotgunWorld where I discussed how to fix it (or not), and it sold for double what my father had bought it for...

Nevermind Foxx: Dump this thing and move on. You'll be happier when it's gone.

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Originally Posted by Bimmer

Tell the truth. You don't want to be That Guy.

My experience: My father handed down a Frankenstein Remington 1100 to me that wouldn't function consistently. I tried/fixed everything, including opening up the gas ports. Like you, I finally got fed up with it and sold it.

I posted it on GunBroker, with a link to the long thread on ShotgunWorld where I discussed how to fix it (or not), and it sold for double what my father had bought it for...

Nevermind Foxx: Dump this thing and move on. You'll be happier when it's gone.

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I agree. I never said "DON"T SELL IT". I said I would not sell it. I am different. I am the guy that would buy it. I said it would be tough to sell right now for a decent price because there are real low prices on new Savages out there.

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Originally Posted by rmauch

I am out of ideas and patience. I have a savage Model 11 .308 ( hog hunter). I have had the gun from about 3 years. If you not familiar the rifle has a 20” medium weight threaded barrel with 1-10 twist. It comes with savage’s plastic stock and has iron sights. The stock has been replaced and the iron sights removed. It has a Vortex Viper 4x12x40 for glass. Yesterday I reached my tipping point with it. I can’t for the life of life of me get it to shoot. At 105 yards it groups at 1.5-2.25 inches at 208 yards it jumps to the 6-8 inch groups, neither of which I feel is adequate. I have only gone out to 300 yards once with and it produced 12-15 inch group. I haven’t gone further out with due to the lack of accuracy. I have tired the following. The original bases and rings (Warne) have been removed and remounted x3 every time installed and torqued to spec. I have tried the following scopes Viper 4x12, Diamondback4x12, Leupold VXll 3x9, and a Primary arms1x6. I switched to a DNZ one piece mount and tried 3 out of 4 of the previous listed scopes.
As for ammo, It dislikes all 150 gr I have used. Which includes Remington cor-lockt, Hornady interlock, and Federal PSP. Moving up to the 165-168 gr. I have tired Hornady A-max and BTHP match, Federal Gold medal match, and BTHP match from Armscor. And finally 180gr hunting loads from Remington, Hornady, Federal, and Winchester. The heavier rounds group better but still not what I would consider good.
The stock has been replaced with one from Stockade gunstocks and torqued to their specs , trigger is set at 2.5 pounds. The barrel is free floated and Stockade doesn’t recommend bedding the action when using their stocks

My other .308 is a Remington 700 ADL 22inch barrel with the factory wood stock with a Vortex diamondback 4x12x40. The gun was bought new in 83/84 by my father. He is gone and it became mine. It is as factory as you can get. Even with the factory trigger set at around 6 pounds I can still shoot better with it by a considerable amount. Remington 150gr Cor-lockt produces three shot groups of at or below 1 inch at 100 yards, 2.5 at 200yds, 3.5-4.0 at 300yds, and 5.0-5.25 at 400yds. I am sure those could be improved if the trigger would be tuned or replaced, but I figure why mess with it. I know those numbers might not be that impressive to some but I am pleased with them especially using the Remington round. So I don’t think it’s me or maybe the Remington is that good.


Am I missing something obvious? I have been trying to think of something else to use, do, or try but I also starting to think I am might just have a money pit. At this point I want to sell\trade it away and move on. My Savage is like a bad girlfriend, I keep trying to make it work and she just keeps being a Bi*ch. Sorry for the long post.

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I've tried a lot of Savage barrels, and almost all will shoot < 1.5" 5 shot 100 yard groups with handloads right out of the reloading book. After checking the obvious things, loose screws and bad scope etc, if a gun/barrel won't shoot < 1.5; I'd switch barrels. I've sold a lot of 22" sporter barrels here that WOULD shoot < 1.5".
joe b.

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Originally Posted by rmauch

Thanks for the responses. The Stockade stock is going to a new home here soon. I plan on keeping the scope and DNZ rings. The barrel and action should be on their way out shortly.

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Did you find a new home for your action? I'd be interested in buying the action from you. Contact me via PM if interested.

My 10T shot like a POS in the Tupperware stock. I bedded it into a Boyd's tacticool.... still didn't get that great of reliable groups. Finally I cracked that Boyds when trying to play with the action screw tension to determine if that was a contributing factor. That was also the first DIY bedding job I've done and I've since sworn to never do one again so I bought an HS Precision stock with the aluminum bedding block and now she touches five holes reliably. Savages seem to be finicky about the stocks they're in.

This was a long and frustrating process especially since I did a whole new load ladder every time I changed something except for the few times I bought a box of Hornady match here and there.

Also, someone above mentioned getting a take-off barrel. I once had a 270 that needed the barrel replaced and I wanted to swap to a 30-06 for hunting elk. I called Jim at Northland Shooter's and he hooked me up with a 30-06 take-off barrel for very cheap. This was the standard plain jane pencil profile hunting barrel but he might have some heavy take-off barrels. It's worth giving him a call. You could upgrade the lug and barrel nut while you're at it. Don't forget the go/no-go gauges. I got by just threading the barrel down onto the go-gauge to save having to buy both, but there's probably a better way of doing this for a precision gun that you want to load long bullets seated out a ways.

It looks like the stock and the barrelled action have been sold according to the OP.

Had a Winchester coyote in 270 wsm same deal no matter what I tried I could not get it to shoot. Lapped the scope. bedded the action you name it I tried finally traded it for an ar10