Load workup bullet advice needed

I'm going to be starting load workup for my FCP-SR (20") with IMR 4064. I have a question that I don't know whether there's really an answer for but I'll try anyway. BTW, this is my first 308 load workup and my shooting is 100-300 yards.

My workup procedure is to first buy a box of commercial ammo loaded with each of the bullets that I'm considering using and to shoot a representative sample of all of them. After determining which bullet shoots "best" I determine the best charge using an ogive to base OAL in the middle of my range, in this case .030". After determining the charge I then vary the OAL by .010, in this case .010-.050, and load ten charges at each OAL to determine my final charge & OAL.

This procedure has always worked well for me in the past but I've never dealt with as many different bullet types and weights..which in this case are going to be SMK 168gr and 178gr, A-Max 155, 168 and 178gr and Hornady BTHP Match 155, 168 and 178gr.
Thats eight different bullets and if I fired two five shot groups of each to test, it makes 80 total test rounds. The issue that I have is that I live an hour from the range and because of a health issue I can't leave my wife for more than 4-5 hours max at a time. I get to the range about once every two weeks so I don't want the process to take three months. So that begs the question as to whether out of these eight bullet/weight combinations can anybody make a suggestion as to which ones might be less likely to be "successful" in this rifle and which I could probably eliminate from my tests? I'm aware that each rifle is different and what works well in one might not necessarily work well in another but I would think there might be some generalizations that can be made to streamline the process somewhat. From what I've read this rifle doesn't seem to like the 155s very much so maybe that's a start?

Any advice or personal experience that you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

--Terry

That's a lot to take in and process. I'm sorry to hear about your wife, I hope she improves quickly for both your 'sakes.

Primary use of the rifle,

Most important thing to keep in mind. You say 100-300 yards. That's fine. Shooting at what? Paper targets? Benchrest? Deer hunting? Squirrels? Chihuahua's? Bullet selection must take into account the desired task of the individual rifle.

My personal thoughts are to not waste money or time on factory ammo. Most of my rifles have never had a factory round fired down the barrel. That is just me though, not saying it's "wrong".

Handloads. You are using IMR 4064. That's fine. Do you also have access to other powders, or is this "it"? Are you starting off with a batch of clean, fresh, "virgin" brass? Or is part of your plan to use the brass from your fired factory "test" ammo? What about primers? Have several choices to try, or we just talking "one"?

My own thought preference is to run multiple bullet/powder/primer combinations first (changing only one thing at a time), and worry about bullet seating depth last. For a magazine fed hunting rifle, I'll start my OAL on initial loads at somewhere around .030"-ish, unless I have magazine length issues. For my target rifle loads, I'll usually start OAL at around .010"-ish, depending on magazine length issues (most of mine are either single shots, or have single shot followers installed). But I focus on the powder/bullet combos first. Once I have that, then I drop the charge lvl again so I can move the bullet OAL and run it up again.

For competition level target shooting, if you're shooting 300 yards and under, I would say 155 to 168 gr SMK's would be where I would start. Most of the time, it's been my experience that if those don't shoot in your gun, then your gun has problems. Not always, but they have been pretty consistent bullets for me. This may require you to drop your initial powder IMR 4064, and go with something else, but those bullets should shoot. I think there's also a couple of 135's out now that may work well for your shorter range needs.

If you're just plinking for fun and relaxation, then just about any commercial 150-ish weight bullet will put holes in paper. Sierra gamekings, Hornady sp's, Speer's (although the "new" Hotcor's don't seem to shoot as well for me as the old ones did-at least not in my 6x47(6x222Remmag)), or even the Remington Corlokt'd component bullets if you can find them. So if plinking, which is fine, can save some $ using standard grade bullets.

Hit or miss is never a good plan for finding an accurate load. Not knowing your experience level........

Use the OCW method on three different targets per projectile with at least 5 loads. .3 grains apart for the 308 Ie...41.4, 41.7, 42.0, 42.3 etc.... for the 178. There are higher accuracy nodes but you should find a sweet spot for the 178 in that range. 4064 is my choice of powders from 300 to 100 in the 308 with the 175 class projectile. All day every day.

Primer: WLR works fine with 4064. The unobtainium FGMM is the other primer to use.

Scale: You will need a very accurate repeatable scale or powder drop to achieve this. Beam scales are fine if you know how to care for and tune if necessary.
Opinion: Electronic scales in my experience drift too much unless you get into a higher end scale. Gem Pro is hit or miss from my personal experience and is not worth the risk for most people. So unless you have a Prometheus you may be better off going beam. Check often.

Brass: New is preferable, quality is optimal. Weight sort them as best you can if you like that option. Do not mix brands.

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Originally Posted by Slowpoke Slim

That's a lot to take in and process. I'm sorry to hear about your wife, I hope she improves quickly for both your 'sakes.

Primary use of the rifle,

Most important thing to keep in mind. You say 100-300 yards. That's fine. Shooting at what? Paper targets? Benchrest? Deer hunting? Squirrels? Chihuahua's? Bullet selection must take into account the desired task of the individual rifle.

My personal thoughts are to not waste money or time on factory ammo. Most of my rifles have never had a factory round fired down the barrel. That is just me though, not saying it's "wrong".

Handloads. You are using IMR 4064. That's fine. Do you also have access to other powders, or is this "it"? Are you starting off with a batch of clean, fresh, "virgin" brass? Or is part of your plan to use the brass from your fired factory "test" ammo? What about primers? Have several choices to try, or we just talking "one"?

My own thought preference is to run multiple bullet/powder/primer combinations first (changing only one thing at a time), and worry about bullet seating depth last. For a magazine fed hunting rifle, I'll start my OAL on initial loads at somewhere around .030"-ish, unless I have magazine length issues. For my target rifle loads, I'll usually start OAL at around .010"-ish, depending on magazine length issues (most of mine are either single shots, or have single shot followers installed). But I focus on the powder/bullet combos first. Once I have that, then I drop the charge lvl again so I can move the bullet OAL and run it up again.

For competition level target shooting, if you're shooting 300 yards and under, I would say 155 to 168 gr SMK's would be where I would start. Most of the time, it's been my experience that if those don't shoot in your gun, then your gun has problems. Not always, but they have been pretty consistent bullets for me. This may require you to drop your initial powder IMR 4064, and go with something else, but those bullets should shoot. I think there's also a couple of 135's out now that may work well for your shorter range needs.

If you're just plinking for fun and relaxation, then just about any commercial 150-ish weight bullet will put holes in paper. Sierra gamekings, Hornady sp's, Speer's (although the "new" Hotcor's don't seem to shoot as well for me as the old ones did-at least not in my 6x47(6x222Remmag)), or even the Remington Corlokt'd component bullets if you can find them. So if plinking, which is fine, can save some $ using standard grade bullets.

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Primary use of the rifle is shooting paper targets and small steel plates at the longer distance.

I really want to stay with 4064. I know that it's fine for my needs and I have a lot on hand since I use it in my M1 Garand. For the brass I have some "once-fired" commercial cases and also plan to use the brass from the commecial ammo that I'm going to experiment with. Primers are CCI LR.

No competition shooting at this time although that may change in the future

I was originally planning to use basic Hornady 150gr FMJBT projectiles but after seeing how accurate the rifle was out of the box with inexpensive commercial ammo I decided to handload for even better accuracy using better bullets and more exacting load workup. Since you mentioned 150-ish weight commercial bullets, do you think I should just continue with my original plan based on my primary use?

Robinhood, I use an RCBS Chargemaster which I've verified against a beam scale to be plus/minus 0.1gr.

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Robinhood, I use an RCBS Chargemaster which I've verified against a beam scale to be plus/minus 0.1gr.

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Likewise, However randomly I get a gross over charge that is not shown on the scale and random short charges. I would say 6 or 7 out of ten are right on the money. I have tried a lot of the mods accept for the insert sold on Accurate shooter.

My Pampered Scott Parker tuned scale is the last word.

I guess it really depends on what level of accuracy you're shooting for? Again, no wrong answer here, depends on what you want it to do. The bulk FMJ's are fine for plinking, I run them in my M1A for "fun". I don't think that bullet will really perform to the rifle's full potential, but if 1 to 2 MOA is all you're after for recreational use, by all means have at them. Since you're going to be shooting mixed brass anyway, this may be a good enough combo to keep you entertained. Just stay away from top end loads with that mixed brass, and watch your trim lengths, some will grow faster than others.

If you start to think about chasing that elusive "one hole group" with the gun, then of course, everything changes. Including bullet recommendations.

I am sorry to hear about your wife.

You might pare down the bullet choices some and have fewer options or stretch them out over more than one shooting session.

Work with the ones you shot, then shoot another batch and see if there was anything better about them. If not stick with your first batch for working with.

One way I have found to deal with the seating issue is that I take a press with me (Junior so its fairly light) to the range with me and a seating die.

I pick where I want to start OGIVE length wise for the first 10, I deliberately set the rest out past a length they would engage in the lands.

I shoot the first 5 or 10, then make and adjustment. If I am close to the lands and results not so good, I move them back .005 at a time.

I don't start short, I don't do max loads, but you can reverse it and seat them longer if you are that far off.

I have found the bullet ogives can vary easily by .004 so minimum adjustment is .005 for me. .010 is fine as well but if you are closing in on the lands that could be too much.

My brother picked up a hand press recently to do the same thing.

I shoot a lot of 308 and always start my load .5 under mid range load to .5 over mid range seat at 0.018 -0.022 off the lands and save some $$$ and use Sierra 150gr. match kings, CCI lr primer and you will be good to go.
Also never change more than one thing at a time because you will not know what worked.
I don't bother with ladder groups or OCW I start with 3 shot groups at different loads and go from there, but when done always verify with 5 or 10 shot groups.

Robinhood, I had the same issue with over and under charges after doing the Accurate Shooter mods so I went back to the Chargemaster defaults except for B1 which I decreased slightly. The big improvement came when I added one of the inserts. Since then I've checked between 50 & 100 throws and not had a single one that doesn't match up exactly with the scale. The insert is a worthwhile addition.

Slowpoke, I'd be happy with 1 MOA groups and I think I'll try achieving that with the A-Max 155's and 168's. I was able to put 30 rounds of 150gr FMJ commercial ammo through it the only time I've had it out so far and six five round groups were all 1-1/2 to 2" using a Primary Arms 4-14x44 FFP optic. It was better than I expected with that ammo, especially seeing as how it was the first time I had ever touched a bolt gun.

Thanks for the kind thoughts about my wife. She has MS and improvement isn't likely but we just hope that her decline remains slow.

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Originally Posted by rjtfroggy

I shoot a lot of 308 and always start my load .5 under mid range load to .5 over mid range seat at 0.018 -0.022 off the lands and save some $$$ and use Sierra 150gr. match kings, CCI lr primer and you will be good to go.
Also never change more than one thing at a time because you will not know what worked.
I don't bother with ladder groups or OCW I start with 3 shot groups at different loads and go from there, but when done always verify with 5 or 10 shot groups.

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What are you shooting these in?

A model 10 LE 20" barrel for a factory gun and I have also shot them with a one I built using a few different barrels 24 & 26" length.
I also have a friend using them thru a 1:12 twist factory model 12 with very good results.
I am also working on a 13 twist 22" using 125gr.SMK but it is on pause until the new stock comes in, it will be for 200 yard score matches.

43.5 gr of 4064 under 168 smk.

This is a common load for many. Use this load with your different seating depths.

I've tested all those bullets you mentioned and the 168smk is always very consistent in different rifles. It's a no brainer for up to 300 yards. It just works.

I plan to ladder test 41.5 to 43.5 gr under Hornady 168gr BTHP Match bullets. If I'm not happy with them I'll try SMK and/or A-Max projectiles.

Do you have a chronograph? I shot commercial rounds until I found the one that worked for me. I chronograph-ed it. then I tried to mimic it. I was shooting Hornady superformace 178 A-Max. Worked great. Worked up loads for that. Then Hornady came out with ELD rounds. Switched over. Been happy since. Try to narrow down you commercial ammo and go from there. Take your time. Take care of the wife 1st and shoot when you can. Hope she gets better. Good luck. 4064 will work good for you. Its always on the shelf.

Unfortunately, the range where I shoot doesn't allow chronographs but I went out today and was very happy with both Hornady 168gr A-MAX and 168gr BTHP Match. I'll work up loads with both bullets and go from there. I use 4064 in my M1 Garand loads so I have quite a bit on hand but you're right, I've never had trouble finding it.

I believe the best groups out of my rifle have been with 175-178 grain projectiles. I have a 24" barrel with 1:11.25 twist, so not exactly the same as yours. But, it might hurt to try something a bit heavier. Oh, and IMR 4064 is what I primarily use in my .308. Good stuff and a versatile powder.

This one has come up before and I dismissed it as the recommend OCW loads were way to hot (up over maximum )

However, this seems to explain it better and what you are looking for.

I am scratching my head a bit if you look at the target examples and maybe can't see the pictures that well, but one load looks good (41.6 though I can see its on the edge a throttling back just a bit probably better ) and another not as good but can't see where the 3rd bullet went either.


http://www.ocwreloading.com/

I buy factor ammo to throw down range at steel targets, a run and gun sort of thing. I'm not big on buying brass and paying as much for 25 rounds of new brass as a box of 20 rounds already loaded costs(in my case 338 Lapua). I buy Hornady mostly, shoot them out of the box at various unknown ranges on the range with some holdover, collect the brass and carry it home. Might as well have fun gathering the brass. I don't see the fun in spending money on empty brass only to have to wait to use it. I like to look at it as throw away bullets, not specific testing, details, recording.....blah, blah, blah. Just pure fun.

Once I have my brass I'll go thru the cleaning, measuring and all of that stuff. I worked up 100 rounds for my show queen. Measured the headspace and worked up 5 rounds each at my starting weight. I am working with a 308 Win, 28" Shilen heavy barrel contour, Savage 10 FCP-SR. New Sharpshooter Supply bolt, extractor, PTG bolt head. Measured to the lands 2.925".

I started at 39.6gr using N550 as recommended by Vihtavuori. I loaded 20 rounds(1 box) with Lot # and tag on front. 5 rounds each at the exact same amount of powder, hand measured each load as the supposed accuracy of the RCBS quick loading thing is anything but accurate. Anyhow, I set my O.A.C.L at, .005", .010", .015" and .020" off the rifling. This way I could test for the best distance and best powder combination at one time. Seemed an awful waste to test for the perfect powder load then retest for the other.

Don't know about the Hornady bullets, I'm using 175gr, Sierra tipped match kings, CCI lr 200 primers. The performance of the powder and Sierra's this weekend were outstanding. My testing so far is showing that the .005" to .010" off the rifling is working best so far. I only got up to 41.5gr of N550 and have quite a bit more to go. At this load my fps was 2400-2450. Last Lot# I shot was 41.5gr set off the rifling as stated above. Neither of the four groups were anything I'd complain about. The best group was .700", looked like a keyhole, all overlapping each other by half, 5 shots. This was off a cold bore, first shot cold and four consecutive after that.

Working without a chronograph is what I initially thought about doing. But when I fired those first 20 rounds of handloads and got to the loads that were .005" off the rifling I could tell a difference in the sound when fired and the fps was higher than the others, not amazingly higher but higher. The group also was the best 1"+/-.

Working the OACL I'd recommend measuring the distance with something like Sinclair offers. Bought it and works great. I tried the bullet seating thing you can find all over YouTube and I measured it 40 times to get a good average. Unfortunately the measurements were all over the place. 2.913 to 2.938 and everything in between. This was with my factory rifle barrel. Once I used the tool from Sinclair, measured it at 2.945" plus or minus a few thousandths each time I measured, not .020". I measured some factory ammo, Hornady, Remington CorLokt and was getting anywhere from 2.810" to 2.730" on the OACL.

I also checked the fit in the magazine on my 2.920" rounds. They all went into the magazine. I did not try to cycle them thru, I just load them one at a time, slows me down to concentrate on other things while shooting, breathing, trigger control, etc.

I like to keep it simple. Picked a powder, picked the bullets and primers. Then worked from there. I thought about some IMR4895 to test another powder and some other bullets. After testing this weekend with the N550 and Sierra's I'm not changing a thing.

Don't know if any of my ramblings will be beneficial to you, it's sure fun experimenting though.

Terry : IMR-4064 is well known in the 308 Winchester with the 168 & 175 Gr SMK BTHP's my recommendation is during your testing use just one brand of commercial brass at a time. Then if and when you decide to use another brand, reduce the load about 10% and work back up watching for any signs of high pressures. Keeping in mind as you go up in bullet weight the recoil will also go up in your 20 inch barrel, and the bullets may be longer, thus effecting your OAL. Good luck and may your wife be on the road to a speedy recovery.

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Originally Posted by tcoz

1) My workup procedure is to first buy a box of commercial ammo loaded with each of the bullets that I'm considering using and to shoot a representative sample of all of them.
2) After determining which bullet shoots "best" I determine the best charge using an ogive to base OAL in the middle of my range, in this case .030". After determining the charge I then vary the OAL by .010, in this case .010-.050, and load ten charges at each OAL to determine my final charge & OAL.
3) This procedure has always worked well for me in the past but I've never dealt with as many different bullet types and weights..which in this case are going to be SMK 168gr and 178gr, A-Max 155, 168 and 178gr and Hornady BTHP Match 155, 168 and 178gr.
4) So that begs the question as to whether out of these eight bullet/weight combinations can anybody make a suggestion as to which ones might be less likely to be "successful" in this rifle... From what I've read this rifle doesn't seem to like the 155s very much so maybe that's a start?

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1) Sounds fine enough, but doing that won't tell you whether or not the rifle "likes" a particular bullet; it will only tell you whether or not it likes that ammo.
2) I have never owned a rifle that cared much about jump to lands, and have "fixed" a few loads for people who's rifle was "sensitive" to seating depth. They weren't sensitive, they had poor load work done. So I think far too much importance is placed upon jump, unless you are after the last drop of potential accuracy. With the nature of the question and limited info, I don't know if we can say that you are capable of all possible accuracy from a rifle; just too many unknowns.
3) If it works then great, you don't really need us to tell you how to do it. Personally for that short distance, I wouldn't waste time or money on long heavy match bullets. Find a good flat base bullet and go, will be much easier to make them shoot well. Concentric bullets are easier to make in a FB design, and the BC won't matter at that distance.
4) I read the boogie-man lived in closets.... I don't believe that either, unless he hands me a shirt in the morning.

Powder and primer talk is always interesting to me, and is a bit limited in the grand scheme of things. IMR 4064 isn't what it was. The 1# bottles are still produced by General Dynamics in Quebec, but the plant was totally rebuilt last year. So is it still "the same"? Perhaps. The 8# bottles are currently being produced by Rhinemetal over in IIRC Sweden, so I know it isn't the same as the rest. Find what is available to you and start testing.

As the OP, here's what little I've had the time to determine so far.
I nixed the use of the heavy bullets so my unscientific trial consisted of shooting a box of five shot groups with Federal GMM SMK 168s, Hornady Match loaded with A-Max 155s and 168s and Hornady Match BTHP 155s and 168s.
I'm not the greatest shooter in the world but I felt pretty good on that day and with my PA FFP 4-14x44 cranked up I think I shot just about as well as I'm capable of. The 155s gave me consistent 1.5 to 2" groups and the 168s gave me consistent sub 1 to 1.5" groups with negligible difference between them.
I decided for the time being at least to go with the Hornady BTHP Match 168s being the least expensive of the three.

I now have 80 Hornady cases that I'll load with 41.5, 42.0, 42.5, 43.0 and 43.5 grains of IMR 4064 using the same ogive to base OAL used in the commercial ammo as a starting point. Using the OCW method I'll determine the load that I like best then I'll fine tune the OAL using a couple of .005" increment changes.

For my very limjted purposes I'm pretty satisfied that this method will give me a load I can be happy with.

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Originally Posted by rjtfroggy

I shoot a lot of 308 and always start my load .5 under mid range load to .5 over mid range seat at 0.018 -0.022 off the lands and save some $$$ and use Sierra 150gr. match kings, CCI lr primer and you will be good to go.
Also never change more than one thing at a time because you will not know what worked.
I don't bother with ladder groups or OCW I start with 3 shot groups at different loads and go from there, but when done always verify with 5 or 10 shot groups.

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This is similar to what I do also. Usually start mid weight and work up. You may not call it OCW, but in a way that's what you're doing. Shooting groups in .x increments until you find a nice group then repeat to confirm. Most of the time col doesn't have to be messed with unless you really want to fine tune.

OP - pick a bullet you like, load some up and shoot them. Unless your rifle is really picky you should not have to change bullet types at 300 yards. For that range the 150's will work fine and have slightly less recoil too.

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Originally Posted by tcoz

Unfortunately, the range where I shoot doesn't allow chronographs but I went out today and was very happy with both Hornady 168gr A-MAX and 168gr BTHP Match. I'll work up loads with both bullets and go from there. I use 4064 in my M1 Garand loads so I have quite a bit on hand but you're right, I've never had trouble finding it.

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Here is a chronograph that your local range might not object to. The Magnetospeed is barrel mounted so you don't ever go in front of the firing line to set it up. Very accurate and easy to use. http://ads.midwayusa.com/s?userSearc...ospeed+sporter