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Picked up a savage NIB 111 270 win. Got if for practically free off of a trade that I did really well on. I was thinking 280ai cause I love tinkering around on the reloading bench. I was also thinking 338-06 or 35 whelen also kinda torn between the three. It will be primarily a whitetail gun the way im setting up. Any other ideas?????
Roughneck,
My dad is a man who has the "Bigger is always better" school of thought, so I can say that the 338-06 is one heck of a cannon for shooting whitetail. I do understand the enjoyment of tinkering on the loading bench however. I'm not sure if you are from that same school of thought, but maybe just think about staying with the 270 as that is a great deer cartridge, or perhaps think about a 6.5 Creedmoor or a .260 Remington. With the high BC of the 6.5 bullets you get plenty of penetration at normal hunting ranges. Hornady has even come out with a high BC 270 bullet (.536) at 145 grains... ELD-X
Just a couple other options for you to tinker with....
I have alot of the standard cals so thats why i was kinda thinking some "different" for this one. Im hearing so many good things about this 338-06
it is a really nice rifle. My dad uses his on everything from Deer to Elk.... His is a Kimber (spelling?) he's got 2 full sized safes full of rifles and he usually only pulls out the 338-06 for everything except prairie dogs.... And that's probably because it's just too expensive to shoot that many rounds in a day or two.... :)
Haha i hear ya on that...i think im gonna do little more research on that now...thanks alot for the input!!!
280 or 280 AI
robinhood the 280ai is very impressive and that is what I originally had planned. I wonder how a shorter barreled one would perform most of the data you see is for 26" barrel. Id like to keep it at 24 or even 22 wouldn't bother me.
Gotta think that 270 is a great round and versatile for most NA game. Maybe keep it at 270 and use some your funds for a better stock upgrade than planned and better glass than planned. If it still just doesn't work for you, you can always later change caliber.
Wv1951-i have a 700 and model 70 in 270 i killed lots of deer with with this being a more the less free action why i was looking for something different...love the 270 but just want something unique i guess you could say.
.280 Rem/AI isn't realistically offer anything dramatically different over a .270 for a hunting rifle. I've owned the standard .280 and the 7mm Rem Mag trying to find out if they were truly better than my .270 Win. There isn't a .284 caliber rifle in my safe and I own two .270 Win rifles.
I've owned my share of .338-06 and .35 Whelen rifles and I prefer the .338-06. Still have two rifles in that cartridge, but don't currently have any Whelens. I shattered my leg and was out of work for a full year between paychecks, the Whelen rifles were easier to sell when times got tough. I'll own a Whelen again someday, maybe send my extra .338-06 off for a JES rebore.
I know I'm not much help with my response but most of my big game including elk has been killed killed with a .243 or a .270. I'd probably add a larger bore, before I'd go with something similar in performance to what I already owned and am satisfied with. Plus I'd think in this day and age of the internet you'd be more unique to stay .270 Win.
So, I get the "be different" view. But seriously, a 338 that's larger than the Federal... For whitetail???!!
Confucius say no use cannon to kill fly.
If you like different, and since you have the parent case already; try the 6.5-06, or go over of the full sized Mausers.
I've used the .338-06 and .375 Ruger on pronghorn, 200 grain bullets in the .338 and 270 grains in the .375. They worked beautifully and I wouldn't hesitate to use them again. They didn't kill as dramatically as some smaller faster cartridges, but I didn't nearly have the blood shot meat either. Big entrances even bigger edits, no bullets recovered but all the animals were.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkker
I shoot an Edge at EVERYTHING. PDs, turtles, dragonflies, deer, rocks. A 300gr SMK going 2850 works on anything breathing or being a mineral. Rocks stand no chance.
Never claimed the monster cartridges wouldn't kill anything, I claim there is no deaderer. For a goal of whitetail, I don't understand the appeal.
Sure running around the frat house killing flies with a hammer is fun, but are you still going to use the hammer if the fly lands on your head?
Perhaps a cartridge that can be used for something else as well, and be enjoyed. Can a 300gr bullet be used for rock chucks? Yes. Can you kill flies with a hammer? Yes.
6.5x55, 7mm-08,6.5x47, 7x57
[QUOTE=darkker;391411]Never claimed the monster cartridges wouldn't kill anything, I claim there is no deaderer. For a goal of whitetail, I don't understand the appeal.
Its got nothing at all to do with appeal, or making things deaderer.
Next time you go out and shoot your favorite cartridge at a distance beyond say 1200 yards, try to find someone owning a large capacity 338 to go along.
One shot from each with you sitting behind watching is all it would take.
It isn't about making things deader, it's about using it because you have it. A .338-06 or Whelen is no where near a super sized cartridge, they're based off of a .30-06. Now recoil from both can be downright brutal depending on a lot of factors, but it can be as well out of smaller cartridges.
White tail deer aren't extremely hard to kill, but then again most animals aren't. A well placed bullet with adequate construction and enough penetration into vitals tends to work well regardless of animal size. I'm not a minimalist either, though I've killed white tail with .223 and 6- 222 RM rifles. I tend to hunt with the rifles I own, and sometimes that means that I use them on smaller game than I imagined I ever would.
Some places still require use of shotguns only, others only .35 caliber and up and funky length requirements, or a .35 Wheels in a single shot rifle with exposed hammer is the choice for primitive hunting seasons in some states. However, I can tell you most of the time someone uses a certain cartridge on an animal for hunting is because they one because they can, and two because owning something and not using it is boring. Using most modern rifle cartridges on white tail is overkill these days, when most die very easily to a patched round ball at subsonic speeds, or a or a pointy stick launched from a bow.
If it has nothing to do with deadener or appeal, then what is the business about 1200 yards; and how does that relate to hunting whitetail?? Watching that shot will change my mind without appealing to me?Quote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
You know I already shoot farther than that with several cartridges. I don't need to find a large capacity 338, I have one. Or I can grab the Barrett in the safe.
I don't know any small cartridges that provide "brutal" recoil, but that only furthers my point.
As I originally stated for the OP: I get the wanting to be different part, I don't get the appeal of a cannon for a whitetail. Build something different if you like, build several of them! Build something different, that you can take hunting whitetails. But building a monster FOR hunting whitetails, I don't get.
Ever shoot a whitetail with a 338-378? Turns them inside out, and you aren't eating anything.
Recoil is far more dependant on stock fit and shape than cartridge size. I'll take shooting multiple rounds with either of the Whelen rifles I used to own with 225 grain bullets over shooting a box of 170 grain bullets out of my old M94 .30- 30. I've been behind lightning fast kicking light weight rifles that were no fun to sight in as well most based off of a .308 case. There is a lot more to felt recoil than cartridge size and bullet diameter.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkker
No it doesn't, and if it does then you used way to fragile of a bullet for the cartridge. Just like all bullets arent created equal, neither are all white tail deer there is a wide variety in sizes they come in. If you properly pair a bullet to your cartridge capabilities then you'll rarely ever have an issue with any size of game you use it on. My buddy has used his .375 H&H to shoot Duiker in Africa and it didn't turn anything inside out and it made a nice full body mount that sits on a ledge in his house.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkker
Sorry but I need to ask some questions now. What are you shooting from a .308 case that is so bad recoiling? I will admit the win 70 featherweight in .270 is not for the faint of heart, but it has nothing on a 7 RUM in a Rem 700 sendero. And a win model 94 in 30-30? Now a marlin guide gun in 45-70? That will kick your butt but it is still way bigger than any .308 Based case I have ever seen.
375 h&h is a totally different animal than a 338-378 wby. The 338-378 is a high energy, fast moving cartridge. The 375 h&h is heavy deep penetrating, slower moving cartridge. 338-378 shooting a 225-250 g bullet is designed to dump energy on impact. The h&h is made to push that heavy (300g) bullet as deep as it can, boring a big hole through bone, muscle and hide. Hence the missing backside of a deer when hit with a 338-378. I have never seen the 338 version, but I have experience with a 30-378 wby and it absolutely wrecked a mulie buck at 400 yards, close to a 6" exit on the far shoulder. No good meat on the right side ahead or the ribcage. That rifle now has a different owner.
Load testing sub 6lb custom rifles in .308 and 7mm-08 with heavy bullets 160+ in 7mm and 180+ in .308. Even a superlight .243 Win with 105+ grain bullets while not brutal, is quite a bit more than most people would expect. The rifles weren't so bad to shoot with the brakes installed, but they weren't exactly fun to shoot from a bench to develop loads without a brake. The .30-30 is okay to shoot as long as you're standing up shooting off hand, but the stock doesn't lend itself to bench work for load workup and sighting in a new aperture sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by schnyd112
A .375 H&H pushing a 235 grain bullet at 3000 fps isn't exactly a slow moving cartridge. Just because the H&H is over 100 years old doesn't mean that new bullets and powders don't allow you to change things up a little from launching 270+ grain bullets at moderate speeds. I've never used a .338-378 either but I've shot some other large capacity .338 & .375 cartridges.Quote:
Originally Posted by schnyd112
Like I said if you're destroying a lot of meat with a big magnum cartridge you are using the wrong bullet. I've seen the whole offside of a deer ruined by a 168 grain Berger VLD out of a .280 at 400 yards as well and there wasn't an exit. From the front shoulder to the last rib on the off side was bloodshot and full of bullet fragments. I've also used successfully a 70 grain Nosler BT to take deer and pronghorn, it's a varmint bullet but slowed down it acts like a normal cup-n-core hunting bullet. Understanding how your bullet choice works on game is very important.
However, we aren't discussing supersized magnum cartridges. We are talking about the .338-06 and .35 Whelen! These aren't common cartridges so the OP will be better off reloading for these instead of relying on factory ammunition. So since the OP will more than likely be reloading for either of these if he chooses one, he can load them from mild to wild and I'm guessing he'll wind up somewhere in between. I'm betting he'll find a load that'll work just fine on a white tail and it won't damage the animal as badly as some smaller cartridges can.
Thanks for the clarification. I asked because we used to take kids, new to hunting and without much guidance, out for mulies. Most we met while helping out with hunter safety. We had a .243 but it was too small for some of the bigger kids to shoot so we had them use a 7-08 with 140's. It probably weighs closer to 9lbs ready to hunt though.
I have never shot an h&h, but my experience with them is from when I was a kid and grandpa had one. He shot big bullets and never hunted with it. He always hunted with a .264 wm that we called the terminator.
You have a valid point. Of course as dense as I am a hammer to the head would be no big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkker
I run an Edge on everything for the following reasons.
1. I like it.
2. I am very familiar with it(Beware the man with just one gun he probably knows how to use it)
3. I have thousands of 300 SMKs.
4. Sh1t happens.
5 Deer MOVE while bullet is in flight. Dense people calc shots wrong. Wind switches. Rangefinders hit 64 yds in front or behind the deer. I forget to enter temp or air density or don't read the wind as well as I could.
6. Deer just decide they don't wanna die until they say so.
7. Scopes track WRONG that 1 time.
8. The planets aren't aligned.
9. I just plain mess up.
10. Scope is knocked off, action screw gets loose, I get excited and jerk trigger or about 3 million other things.
Reasons shooting a 338 will fix these issues.
1. Wind resistance.
2. POWER
3. LOTS OF POWER
4. Easier to load for than smaller higher velocity rigs.
5. CONFIDENCE
I hunt on the plains. We get over 100 tags a yr. Our average shot distance is a ludicrous number. Like 743 for the last 3 yrs. Yeah I can stalk and kill a deer on the ground in 6" grass with a bow, but I enjoy LR hunting and where I hunt it is very effective and less disruptive to the herd than walking around spreading scent everywhere.
A 338 FIXES errors, bad luck and deer being deer.
When we shoot a deer with a 338 we listen for the pop and if we hear it we KNOW its uhhhhh DEAD. Deer are pretty easy to recover here as there is nowhere for them to hide and we very rarely lose one....ohhhh and we shoot them with 338 300gr SMKs.
Yeah it may be ludicrous but I have seen too many OOOOPS issues arise out past 500 yds. I want to KNOW that a solid body hit will result in a dead critter. Does it bloodshot some meat. Yep. Do you know how much meat comes off of 100 deer? A BUNCH. I don't like wounded critters suffering and until a good cup and core, higher BC bullet is built in the 375 in large quantities by Berger, Sierra or Hornady, I will continue to smash flies with a hammer.
I had 2 deer this yr take a step during TOF. Shooting a 6.5 Creed both required a quick follow up, thank God I was on an AR. Though both outcomes were OK I have gone back to the 338 and will retire the Creed to coyotes, porcupines and such.
You can't kill a deer TOO DEAD, you can wound them all day long at long range no matter how good you and your equipment is. Deer move, wind blows, stuff happens. I don't mind missing but If I hit I want it to be as destructive as humanely possible.
On a side note I have found the 338 to kill better than the 50BMG unless you can hit really solid bone, even then the 338 will hang in there.
Sigh...to all of the people arguing about the 338, you all are morons! There is no perfect round that can do everything. When there is a perfect round, ill be sure to post it here so the keyboard commandos can shut up.
Now for the OP.
IMO the 280ai is a fun round, just having to fireform is a slight drawback.
The 338-06, I call it the Poormans lapua. Though I've never seen one that can't shoot well.
The Whelen. I have very little experience with, so I can give no input onto it.
Now between the 3 rounds listed, I would go with the 338-06 just for sheer ease of reloading (not having to fireform)
Unfortunatly, conversations gradually get sidetracked from the original question as they have here.Quote:
Originally Posted by h. dumpty
Fact is I doubt there are any real morons here, and beyond that I think everybody realizes it dosent take a magnum cartridge to kill a deer.
As for why people choose to hunt in the manner in which they do would be easy to answer.
That would be because they can, and further more one way might have more appeal to them than another way.
A person wouldn't have to venture miles out into the Atlantic ocean to catch a fish either.
But if you had the opportunity to do that, you just might find you like it better than sitting on a bucket next to a canal or stream someplace watching a bobber. So we tend to do whats available for us to do, and adjust around that with the equiptment we use.
So if you happen to have very steep mountainous terrain available, with wide valleys with another steep mountain on the other side, it would only be a natural thing for someone to want to shoot way over there at targets on that mountain.
And in the process of doing that, one would soon learn that larger cartridges are much better for doing that than smaller ones are.
Whats the (remaining) energy of a given cartridge at that distance is what becomes important, as well as how accurately can we get it there.
Darkker can in fact shoot his 308 across those valleys. But he also knows full well his chances of doing that (accurately) aren't very good.
It would be sorta like taking that cane pole you use while sitting on the bucket, out into the ocean.
6.5-06