.223 53gr v-max distance from lands?

i've been working up loads for my .223 built from savage short action and while i had no problem finding a tack driver of a target load using 69gr nosler custom competitions, when i tried to come up with a varmint hunting load using 53gr vmax i wasnt able to get less than 1 moa. with the 69gr every load i tested was between .25 and .65 moa.

i used brand new winchester brass with full case prep including everything from full length sizing to primer pocket uniforming. i used bechmark with loads ranging from 24.5gr to 26.9gr. started experiencing preasure signs at 26.7 (cratering) and pierced primers at 26.9. i loaded to what i determinted to be 0.020" off the lands using hornady's comparator setup.

i've always started 0.020" off the lands and have nearly always been satisfied with the results, so im wondering if maybe this bullet just likes being closer to the lands or actually loaded the the length listed in the hornady manual (2.23" iirc)

at this point im not sure if i should continue or just stick to my heavier target loads. a varmint load for this rifle is definatly more of a want than a need since i also have a .22-250 that will see most of the varmint hunting anyway.

any tips or advice?

Don't be afraid to go farther off the lands. Mine shoots the best .070" off the lands with 52's.

That would make sense. I don't have my notes with me but I believe that would put me right around the book measurement. I've always just considered the book oals to be minimums with rifle rounds so usually skip right past them.

I run the 53g vmax at 2.285" COL in my savage rigs as that's about mag length before binding happens., max to lands is 2.333" so that's .048" off Id guess.
They print around .500"-.700", good enough for p-dogs/coyote.

My Model 12FV with 26 inch 9 twist prefers the 53 VM at .015 to .020 off and a moderate load of 3031 or 8208. I tried shooting at .005 off or touching, but that didn't work very well, so moved it back.

I'll seat some of the loaded rounds I have a little deeper and try that then

You might also try the 53 grain Sierra HP, p/n 1400. I find that it shoots into tiny groups too.

I've never seen group size change so much with such a small change in seating depth..


I had about 12rds left from each charge weight I put together for load development that were 0.020 off and seated 6 of each to 0.030 off and another 6 of each to 0.050 off. I just wanted to try once more before giving up on the 53gr vmax. I went from 1-1.75in groups from the ones 0.020 off to 0.35-0.65in groups from the ones 0.030 off.. just 0.010 difference... when I'm not on my phone I'll try to figure out how to post a photo

Couldn't find the link to the article, but one technique is to load in .040 intervals starting on the lands and see which group shoots best, then refine from there.

This link has a lot of information you might find interesting. http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com

Be sure to check out all the articles on the side bar.

AR comp is good with 53 v Max think I got 3300 or 3400 fps. and bughole @ 200 YDS

Mine would shoot in the high .2's, loaded .070" off the lands. Going .005", either way put it out to an inch.

i've loaded up a 10rds each 25.3 starting touching the lands and going out to 0.045" off the lands in 0.005" increments and will try going farther off the lands when i have more time.

here are a few pictures of the 0.030" off groups with the 25.3 load that used to be a 1.5moa load at 0.020 off. in the photo you'll see i called a flier from the bench and fired another to replace it i measured both the 5 shot group with out the flier and the 6 shot group that includes it

without
https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8163/2...37392a37_b.jpg

with

https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8113/2...bd1aee97_b.jpg

also while i've got your attention i just started another thread about this rifle and would love some input

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considering buying a ptg bolt head for my savage .223 because i've got cratering with just over book starting loads. it doesnt seem to effect performance and doesnt start piercing primers any sooner than i would expect from any other rifle. problem is i like using the first signs of cratering as a sign that i am reaching the upper levels of the safety window. at this point it seems to just be cosmetic but it bugs me.

i've never worked up a load for a rifle then changed things so im worried that if i change the bolt face, the loads i've worked up will need to be redone from the ground up. is that likeley?


i believe this photo will show what im talking about. the rows from top to bottom start from book starting to book mid loads in 0.3gr increments. the cratering stays looking this way untill just over book max where it starts piercing like would be expected

https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8388/2...06c59ebb_k.jpg

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I would suggest you disassemble the bolt, remove the firing pin and measure the pin diameter using a good micrometer, just behind the pin tip. Should measure .069 to .070. IF you can pin gauge the bolt head firing pin hole, your clearance should be around .003. I'm guessing yours is around .006 or more.

Write back when you have the results. Or....just order a new firing pin from Savage. IIRC, they're less than ten bucks. You'll need to sign a liability release to buy it. Probably fix the issue, unless we're talking about a well worn bolt head.

My 12FV in 223 exhibited this exact same behavior new from the factory. Long story short, I bought several new firing pins and cherry picked one to install. Problem fixed!

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Originally Posted by Texas10

I would suggest you disassemble the bolt, remove the firing pin and measure the pin diameter using a good micrometer, just behind the pin tip. Should measure .069 to .070. IF you can pin gauge the bolt head firing pin hole, your clearance should be around .003. I'm guessing yours is around .006 or more.

Write back when you have the results. Or....just order a new firing pin from Savage. IIRC, they're less than ten bucks. You'll need to sign a liability release to buy it. Probably fix the issue, unless we're talking about a well worn bolt head.

My 12FV in 223 exhibited this exact same behavior new from the factory. Long story short, I bought several new firing pins and cherry picked one to install. Problem fixed!

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I like the way you think.... that would fix my problem without screwing with my load work up. This was a brand new bolthead so it isn't well worn. I don't have pin gauges or a micrometer so I think I'll order up a few new firing pins to try out

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Originally Posted by Texas10

Or....just order a new firing pin from Savage. IIRC, they're less than ten bucks. You'll need to sign a liability release to buy it. Probably fix the issue, unless we're talking about a well worn bolt head.

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http://www.midwayusa.com/product/198...ster-m10-12-16

This is the one I'd assume? Rifle is a sav 12 4.4" CF.

Primer piercing-

What primers are you using for near max loads? There are some to avoid. Use thick cup primers such as Rem 7 1/2, CCI 450's.

Verify headspace and case sizing. This is critical.

Set firing pin protrusion to .035"-.045" not .060". Use light oil, NOT grease on pin otherwise light strikes and misfires can occur in colder weather.

Any bolt head work is a last resort.

Shouldn't be piercing primers without an ejector wipe and a heavy bolt lift.

Piercing isn't the problem. Cratering even at starting loads is. Was using regular Cci 400 small rifle primers.

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Originally Posted by Wide Glide

Piercing isn't the problem. Cratering even at starting loads is. Was using regular Cci 400 small rifle primers.

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400's are thinner cup and not really suitable for high pressure loads.

Cratering is not necessarily a problem in need of a solution, nor a sign of imminent disaster.

The same symptoms can come from UNDER min book loads as an excessive pressure event, especially when combined with excessive headspace (or undersized in length brass) or in the case of a wildcat fireforming load that is too mild complete case head separation can occur.

LR primers flatten, SR primers crater.

Verify headspace and case to shoulder shoulder length. Verify pin protrusion. With thick cup primers (Wolf/Tula, 7 1/2's, 450's) shouldn't see cratering until mid book loads, but you're still going to see some, powder/bullet dependent. Powders can have a large influence, some are 'peaky' pressure, some have a gentler pressure curve but higher avg pressure/more velocity.

I can load some hot ones that loosen the primer pockets (223 based case) in two firings, and back off a bit to ten plus reloads, and the cratering will look exactly the same.

Piercing is a definite solve it quick issue.

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Originally Posted by Wide Glide

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/198...ster-m10-12-16

This is the one I'd assume? Rifle is a sav 12 4.4" CF.

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Yep, that's the one. Found my invoice from Savage, two bucks each. Bought 6.

I also polished the flat area and the last thread before the flat, knocking the edge off which hangs up on the rear spring washer.

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Originally Posted by Texas10

Yep, that's the one. Found my invoice from Savage, two bucks each. Bought 6.

I also polished the flat area and the last thread before the flat, knocking the edge off which hangs up on the rear spring washer.

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I wish that was right. I came to the realization that the one in this rifle. Is the other style like in this photo I stole from ebay

http://www.savageshooters.com/asset....6&d=1472271442