Berger bullet question

I see Berger Hybrid advertised. And Berger Hybrid Target. I think Ive even seen Berger Hybrid Match and Match Target.

OMG whats the difference? Is it all just different listings for basically the same bullet?

Ive been using the Hybrid Target. I was always under the impression that they were just leaving the word target off the
listings that just said Hybrid. Im almost certain I saw a video a few years back that showed three, hybrid, hybrid target, and hybrid hunting. They just need to stop already.

Pretty sure the only differences are the target and hunting identifications. This is just standard company mislabeling practices. It can be confusing at times, but best place to look is on Berger's website. They list all the current configurations they are producing.

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

Pretty sure the only differences are the target and hunting identifications. This is just standard company mislabeling practices. It can be confusing at times, but best place to look is on Berger's website. They list all the current configurations they are producing.

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So its a fool some some of the time, and some all of the time situation? lol

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Originally Posted by yobuck

So its a fool some some of the time, and some all of the time situation? lol

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Well it's not Berger Mislabeling them, it's the knucklehead uploading them to the distributors sites that sell them. Probably just some kid who runs their site as a part time job or something.

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Originally Posted by doctnj

I see Berger Hybrid advertised. And Berger Hybrid Target. I think Ive even seen Berger Hybrid Match and Match Target.

OMG whats the difference? Is it all just different listings for basically the same bullet?

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So there has been an evolution, with perhaps some labeling issues, by distributors; but here is the rundown.

The original VLD's were a "match" bullet, according to Walt. Mostly because he had a notion about what a hunting bullet "Should be", and they weren't supposed to be HP's.... Well he changed his mind, after the results spoke for themselves.

So with the change-over, and to attempt to keep things straight, they now make the distinction of "Hunting" etc.

So the "Hunting VLD's" are the original VLD's, nothing changed. The "Target" version has a slightly thicker jacket. and the "Tactical" has a heavy jacket.
The Hybrids has to do with the Ogive. It's a "hybrid" because it has some of both, Tangent and Secant ogive on the bullet. This allows for less sensitivity to seating depth(tangent ogive), while keeping the bullet centered in the bore, yet enough of the Secant to keep the BC high.

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So the "Hunting VLD's" are the original VLD's, nothing changed.

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They sure are.

Several years ago there was a conversation between Walt Berger and another shooter, I think it was Dick Wright, in Precision Shooting Magazine. Walt said "I think we should develop a hunting bullet." The response was "you already have one"....the rest of the article dealt with how many guys were already using the VLD for hunting.

I know the early version 300 grain had a habit of coming apart after leaving the muzzle if driven fairly hard.
I also know that the 300 tacticles will land in the same place as a 300 smk at 1500 yds from the same gun at
about 3000 fps. So think and shoot whatever you like, but thems the facts. And by the way, the 285 Hornadys
are right there also. Essentually the same amount of clicks, for all of them shot from the same gun on the same day.

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Originally Posted by wbm

They sure are.

Several years ago there was a conversation between Walt Berger and another shooter, I think it was Dick Wright, in Precision Shooting Magazine. Walt said "I think we should develop a hunting bullet." The response was "you already have one"....the rest of the article dealt with how many guys were already using the VLD for hunting.

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There is a series of YouTube videos with Walt, IIRC it is from Sinclair Intl. Anyway they discuss this in depth. Or you can get this info from Bergers site, or perhaps it was in their newsletter.

yeah I was on Berger site earlier today looking up g7 bc's and they referenced them simply as berger hybrids and that was the confusing part because yes some sites will sell them as hybrid target, etc. So its good to clear up that the only two distinctions are hunting and target but they are both hybrid "shape". All this time I thought there was three for sure. Thats funny.

Yobuck, are you saying the LM 300 gr berger tacticals perform the same as 300 gr LM smk's?

I shoot the SMK's in my LM because "everybody else does" kind of thing. I have always shot them with out much question and have never tried anything else. Mostly because they have done quite well. I wouldnt mind trying a different projectile but dont really have a reason to. We shot a 12" steel plate at 550 last weekend just for kicks to see if my dope was still on after I got my gun back together. That 300 gr nearly knocked my whole stand down. After the 5th shot I decided Im going to have to re think the stand if I keep this up.

I started my daughter off on SMK's as well mostly because they had that 70 gr that had a pretty good bc and just moved up to the 107's .

I would like to hear argument either way as to whether the berger 105's are better than the 107 smk's or not. I dont see anything, so far, that would make me think they are necessarily. When I did some predictions on my calculator, I liked how they performed past 700 yrds. Or at least the predicted performance.

My daughter's goal is the 1000 yrd milk jug challange and we have only 7 months to get her dialed in so that is the load I have in mind when its all said and done. She saw another girl on Youtube that did it at 11 and that is now her goal.

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Originally Posted by doctnj

I would like to hear argument either way as to whether the berger 105's are better than the 107 smk's or not. I dont see anything, so far, that would make me think they are necessarily. When I did some predictions on my calculator, I liked how they performed past 700 yrds. Or at least the predicted performance.

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well this might change your mind....look at ALL the numbers NOT just elevation...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1469874943.png

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1469874939.png

[QUOTE=doctnj;374198]Yobuck, are you saying the LM 300 gr berger tacticals perform the same as 300 gr LM smk's


Well performance can mean different things, as in how they shoot, and how they kill as a hunting bullet.
The idea people have that a target bullet isn't a good hunting bullet is simply hogwash.
As for our testing, we never shoot at 100 yds after initial load development with our long range hunting guns.
We also don't shoot the 338s under 1000 yds. We do compare various bullets for accuracy at the longer distances.
Wether one may take a few more clicks dosent matter to us as much as how they shoot for accuracy and consistency.
My sons 338x378 will put the 3 bullets I mentioned very close at 100 yds when zeroed. And at 1500 yds the same amount of
elevation/clicks on the scope shows the same results. The same thing happens with my 338 chey tac with the Berger and smk at 1500.
But the group size on mine with the 2 bullets is larger than his. With all 3 bullets and no scope changes he has a basketball size group at 1500.
In his gun. Individually the Bergers do shoot slightly better than the others so he does use them in that gun.
On another note, the 250 gr would be a better choice in 338s under 3000 fps than the 300 gr. Reason being velocity, which will trump the
higher b c to a distance further than most people will ever shoot them. And the same argument could be applied to all of them.

Those are certainly interesting numbers to think about for sure. Right now they both look better than where we are "actually" at. I have her heavier bullet loaded up but a semi gentle powder load. It is/was a mental game for her to experience the larger bullet not yielding a noticeable increase in recoil. Now over the next month Ill be working on the side for a maximum load. Not necessarily max powder but absolute best performer and that is why I have so much interest in the numbers beyond where we are.

The drop doesnt look near as bad as the drift numbers. Because that is where we will fail more than likely.

Just curious and I may not get an answer here but.... Why are the 105's out performing the 107's all else being equal. Well almost equal. I would like to see those numbers with the exact MV but thats close enough I guess.

I just changed the MV in my program to match the 107 above and it is close but still worse but then again my atmospherics are worse as well. We shoot through some very heavy air. Maybe later this weekend Ill change out the atmospherics and see if it matches up to what you show. Would be interesting to see if my calculator is anywhere close anyhow. Right now about to pack up and go see what the heck is wrong with T's scope.

Ill report back. Man I hope its just a crappy zero.

here is a great read that will explain why the hybrid design is superior....

http://www.accurateshooter.com/balli...ogive-bullets/

cant get my photo bucket up ill post the adjusted MV of the 107s later....

Ok still would like to see the chart on 107's but it all of a sudden is quite as important. I just ordered 500 105 berger hybrids. I drank the koolaid once again lol. I spent quite a good amount of time comparing charts and numbers and I think I can change over pretty painlessly. Its hard to walk away from a load with SD of 7.4. If I had a little more time to dedicate to testing and seating depths, I am sure I could lower that number but Im pretty sure I can lower the number with very few attempts with the hybrids.

Now I have to have a pulling party for sure for all the 70 grainers. Ill try the going real tight thing and see if it works.

good decision...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1469961627.png

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1469961624.png

and im only posting the next 3 because they just look cool...and to clutter up your thread LOL...

a 105g berger hybrid at 3072fps VS 3/8" mild steel at 330yds...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1469903675.jpg

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1469903677.jpg

heres some load development tips for the 6mms...it worked out very well for me and is faster than shooting an OCW...another tip....ive had the best luck between .025 and .035 off the lands with all the berger hybrids ive shot...start at .030 off....

http://www.texasprc.club/preidloaddev/

Thanks on the load info. I was doing some research last night to try and make as smooth a transition as possible.

We are headed back out. and I have my allen wrenches this time.

MIDWAY USA IS HAVING A CLEARANCE ON BERGER HYBRID 105GR IN 500 CT.

.030 is about where my die is set right now. Of course Ill have to recheck everything with new bullet.

Heard Berger's tech guy that the hybrid was developed to decrease the sensitivity in seating bullets for the "jump". He said anywhere between 15 and 60 thous. because the bullets just aren't affected that much. Can't remember his name but he has lots of books published on ballistics.

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Originally Posted by captcliff

Heard Berger's tech guy that the hybrid was developed to decrease the sensitivity in seating bullets for the "jump". He said anywhere between 15 and 60 thous. because the bullets just aren't affected that much. Can't remember his name but he has lots of books published on ballistics.

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That's Brian Litz and yes the hybrid was created because of the jump sensitivity of the VLD's.

Well from my limited experience that is absolutely true. I initially measured the lands in all my rifles and worked up loads just off the lands. They were extremely accurate. Next, reality set in and I seated them deep enough to feed in the mag so they wound up being where ever they needed to be to feed regardless of the lands and shot just as accurately. So Im sold. Last week when I switch my daughters 243 over to hybrid, I didnt even bother with looking up the lands measurement. I seated them just short of the front strap and its a laser for sure.

I cant, however seem to make the jump to berger with the 338LM yet. I still have a pile of 300 gr smk's to shoot, both bullets and previously loaded. I guess I understand the hybrid tacticals are really the only choice there anyhow.