What's up with Brass?

Anyone else noticed that Remington and Winchester brass has all but disappeared from the market? No matter where I look Remington is unavailable for multiple cartridges (223, 22-250, 25-06, etc.) and Winchester is spotty at best. Midway doesn't even list either brand anymore for rifle brass and appears to have picked up PRVI Partizan brass to fill the void.

Anyone heard anything as to why this is? I know Remington started building a new ammo factory a couple years ago so they might be in the process of moving machinery, but that doesn't explain the Winchester side of the equation unless they were also making Winchester's brass for them. Inquiring minds wanna know!

We have lots of Winchester pistol brass around here, I don't pay much attention to their rifle brass though. I do, however, notice it is next to impossible to get Remington brass for my 25-06. Hornady is usually available, but rem brass has been a ghost for 25-06 and I would much prefer it over the Hornady stuff.

I'd noticed a distinct shortage when i tried to buy some new Winchester brass in 22-250. After searching the internet high and low, all ll I could find was used brass on eBay and most of that was going for a buck each. So I just bit the bullet and bought Lapua. Plenty of that, Nosler, and Hornaday, at least in 22-250.

i noticed the same thing. at first i thought it was because those brands are the least expensive and first to be bought but dang, can't find any of it in rifle calibers at all.

maybe Rem and Win are behind on everything.

Bruce

Remington has not been putting out bullets either, like PSP's. Just says "unavailable". :-((

I found a fair amount of Winchester 243 lately.
I'm curious if it's as good as the older brass.

^ Just got some Winchester brass in 308, and My openion is no. ^

Winchester used to be my go to for hunting rifles, such as 308 and 223. Lapua for the precision stuff. Have since switched to Lapua for all due to the fact I can't find the Winchester and Hornady is just as much per round at midway as Lapua. At least it was for 308 last I looked

Just ordered 6.5 creedmoor. 72 bucks for 100 of Hornady. Seems descent brass is getting harder to find and more expensive. Midwest south seems to have an ok stock. Midway was empty.

Frankly I am not surprised. Given all the ammo (rimfire) shortages, I cannot help but feel something is amiss at VERY high levels of our "leaders". Sorry to sound like a conspirist but the left has often said if they cannot get our guns they will make them useless.

California has aleady started with ammo laws.

I got very concerned when so many gun malers were all being bought up by one company. Waaaay too easy to control by someone with an ultimate alterior motive.

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Originally Posted by MrFurious

, but that doesn't explain the Winchester side of the equation unless they were also making Winchester's brass for them. Inquiring minds wanna know!

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With as fast as time seems to be going, I'm a bit vague at the moment, so let's just call it an even decade ago. That's when Olin had to sell off their cartridge manufacturing business. Since then "Winchester" brass has all been least-cost bid, by whomever. I know fairly recently Some rifle brass with their head stamp had been coming out of Israel.

Can say about Remy, but from some conversations I with them something like 6-7 years ago, I got the impression that a portion of "their" brass was also outsourced. That was never said, but the feel I got on the phone. Perhaps it's because of the split within ATK, and Speer(among others) leaving that defense contractor mess.

Yea and the poor relationship this administration has with Isreal, we may never see it again, sadly.

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Originally Posted by handirifle

Frankly I am not surprised. Given all the ammo (rimfire) shortages, I cannot help but feel something is amiss at VERY high levels of our "leaders". Sorry to sound like a conspirist but the left has often said if they cannot get our guns they will make them useless.

California has aleady started with ammo laws.

I got very concerned when so many gun malers were all being bought up by one company. Waaaay too easy to control by someone with an ultimate alterior motive.

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A conspiracy doesn't have to be theory. It takes the actions of group to do something harmful, or the action of plotting/conspiring. If after everything we see in social media and the news and we do not believe it happens it might be time for us to take a second look.

It could be something as simple as manufacturers and distributors holding out for price increases. This is how capitalism works. Right?

If we study the history of Banking from 1750 until the present, it is obvious we have been living a conspiracy since then :-((.

As far as the Capitalism issue, I think Remington and Winchester can sell all the "loaded ammo" they can make, so why support the "reload market" by selling cases.

edit: I just checked Midway: They have 106 listings of Remington rifle ammo, most of them are "available". ???

Cabelas has some Winchester brass, about $30/100 for some small caliber and larger calibers for a bit more. Recent comments about winchester brass have not been all that good, I'd like to get some 204 brass but not willing to pay close to $1/case.

Anyone got opinions on Fiocchi ammo and the brass. I'm thinking buy it to test and break in a new 204 and then reload the brass going forward.

Don't hold me to this as my memory isn't the best, but wasn't Fiocci the one that was notorious for having off-center flash holes?


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Originally Posted by FW Conch

I just checked Midway: They have 106 listings of Remington rifle ammo, most of them are "available". ???

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Not ammo, brass. I just checked and they only have two listings for Remington brass and only one is "available".

^ Lincoln4, please carefully read my post again ^

As far as off center flash holes, Fiocci is not the only culprit.

Out of the last 50 Remington; 260Rem; cases I was able to get, 18 had way off center flash holes.

A few months ago, I bought 100 Winchester cases in 308Win. 40 were good(as they should be), 32 were acceptable (useable), 28 had to have the holes uniformed so the depriming pin would line up.

Based on looking for Rem or Win brass over the last several years, my assumption is they can get more for loaded brass and are currently selling all the loaded ammo they can produce. Industry consolidation has reduced price competition allowing for somewhat of a monopoly among fewer players. If they have any excess brass manufacturing capacity, they are most likely selling a slightly lower quality version to their generic/rebranded brass and ammo competitors. Consumers know when they are being gouged and that usually leads to opportunities for new players to entering the market. Best current example are Gillette razor blades vs. internet shave clubs and competition in the US scope marke

^^ ;-)) ^^

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Originally Posted by jpdown

Based on looking for Rem or Win brass over the last several years, my guess is they can get more for loaded brass and are able to currently sell all the loaded ammo they can produce. Industry consolidation also allows for less pricing competition among the players and better control of the supply and demand curve. Marketing and Capitalism 101.

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Yes. That was exactly ATK's ploy with Speer. That's why we haven't seen anything for new data or innovation from them in a very long time. They were told that they needed to make bullets for Federal loaded ammo, and be happy about it.
Now that they have gotten away from that mess, they are in the process of a complete "re-shoot" and pressure testing everything. Said they are also working on several new bullets. Last time I spoke with them, we should see the new data sometime next year. I politely laughed and told them to HURRY!! :p

An investor group (ex. ATK) and industry consolidation is about making money, which is OK! Selling brass as loaded ammo under the Winchester or Remington brand name is more profitable than selling high quality, reusable brass in a generic market. Based on current prices for Hornady, Lapua and Norma brass, the marketing folks at Remington or Winchester are betting/hoping that you will remain brand loyal and buy loaded ammo in order to get your Remington or Winchester brass. I don't see Remington or Winchester off-the-shelf rifle brass being any more available in the near future.

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Originally Posted by hafejd30

Winchester used to be my go to for hunting rifles, such as 308 and 223. Lapua for the precision stuff. Have since switched to Lapua for all due to the fact I can't find the Winchester and Hornady is just as much per round at midway as Lapua. At least it was for 308 last I looked

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I was brass agnostic, but Winchester and FC are off my list (I will use them if once fired and pick up but I don't anneal them, just use them till they crak and dump the whole batch.

Yea PPU seems to have replaced RP locally, Winchester readily available.

PPU I like but it has some aspect that first load does not work, it chambers fine empty, put a bullet in it and no. Hmmm. I'll figure it out. Maybe a pre-trim.

I really like RP for mainline but as noted not available and I can't find once fired like I used to.

ergo also moving to Lapua as its both good and the cost benefit for its longevity makes it worth it. On sale it approaches RP and I never see RP on sale.

I did just fine once fire RP in 308 from Diamond K brass for a reasonably price (24 per hundred)

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PPU I like but it has some aspect that first load does not work, it chambers fine empty, put a bullet in it and no. Hmmm. I'll figure it out. Maybe a pre-trim.

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Odd

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Originally Posted by jpdown

An investor group (ex. ATK) and industry consolidation is about making money,.

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It's always about money, the question is at what "Cost", and calling ATK an "Investor group" is woefully kind. They are a defense contractor, which is part of the "Military /industrial Complex" that Isenhower warned about.

PMC is the brass that I've found to have a ridiculous number of off-center flashholes. I've experienced it in both .308 and .223. It is used as "throw down" ammo now-no attempt made to collect the brass...

I don't buy that stuff but my shootin' buddy bought a bunch on sale for blastin' ammo. If you want a show, shoot PMC rifle ammo when it's starting to get dark-AWESOME-HUGE fireballs!!!! Can't begin to imagine what kind of powder they use.

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Originally Posted by MrFurious

Don't hold me to this as my memory isn't the best, but wasn't Fiocci the one that was notorious for having off-center flash holes?


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I bought a box of Remingtion 55 gr. to break in my model 12fv in 22-250 with the expectation of reloading the brass. Unfortunately, half the flash holes were way off center, and all the primer pockets were cut .008 to .010 too deep. Seating the primer fully caused many FTF's so I pitched them all and bought Laupua brass.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

A conspiracy doesn't have to be theory. It takes the actions of group to do something harmful, or the action of plotting/conspiring. If after everything we see in social media and the news and we do not believe it happens it might be time for us to take a second look.

It could be something as simple as manufacturers and distributors holding out for price increases. This is how capitalism works. Right?

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I wish it were something that simple. In my mind the same applies to rimfire ammo.

Could also be that hunting season is coming up and Mfg's are preparing by producing ammo instead of producing brass for hand loaders. As for rimfire, retailers responded to excess demand and hoarding by raising prices until ammo stayed on the shelf for more than a few seconds. There was never any "shortage", but simply excessive demand, and the market responded as it could under free market rules.

Then there's the Corporate raiders who respond to a big up tic in demand by buying out other companies and taking the profits until demand falls again, then strip the company of all its value and sell off the shell. A great example of how the Free Enterprise model doesn't work, or shouldn't work. Remember the Junk bond market in the 80's? Or the home mortgage market of the mid 2000's?