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With a well-maintained gun and proper ammo...
What has been the field failure rate of the Savage conventional push-feed extractor system ?
Would you trust it on a dangerous game rifle ?
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With a well-maintained gun and proper ammo...
What has been the field failure rate of the Savage conventional push-feed extractor system ?
Would you trust it on a dangerous game rifle ?
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Nope.My bolt head is cut too large.
MARK
Oh man, that is a loaded question... I am sure you will get a lot of different replies...
I don't think I have enough experience to give any sage advice, but I am gonna throw in my $.02
Any problems that I have ever had with my push feed rifles in a field situation have always been a result of human error. Especially when you stipulate well-maintained rifle/ proper ammo, the question is, do you trust yourself on a dangerous game hunt?
Extraction problems? Honestly, I can say that in my experience using proper reloads that have been tested thouroughly, I have never had an extraction failure. From the bench during testing, a different story, but in the field I am using proven reloads.
Short stroking the bolt resulting in a failure to feed has happened to me on a few (around 3-4) occasions when hunting not so dangerous game in my roughly 15 years of hunting. That rate of failure will obviously change with the shooter.
Do I hunt dangerous game? No. But I do take the utmost care when preparing/ testing my equipment. I am sure you will do the same. I would not hesitate to bring one of my savage rifles on a dangerous game hunt (after tons of practice)
With all that being said, I am interested to hear what others will post in this thread...
I have always read that dangerous game rifles were something that you just staked your life on. A rifle that just would not fail under any type of circumstance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer
That's why the African hunters used double's as their primary choice of rifle. There were no "actions" to fail. Only triggers and sears to go "click."
Today you have the $2,500 + Custom Weatherby's and the $5,000 + Blazer straight pull actions to rely on for shooting something that will eat you. There are also some custom shops that will re-work some big bore Marlin Lever's to some exact standards for shooting 500+gr. bullets at animals intent on stomping you into the ground. I believe these retro-fittings cost upwards of $3,000....not including the price of the Marlin.
So, IMHO, if your looking at an under $1,000 bolt action gun to save your life after misplacing your first shot, then I think you need to look at either taking up a safer sport, or shooting at something that won't look at you as a mid-day snack.
Dave
I haven't had a problem with extraction with good ammo in a reasonably clean rifle - but WAY too many problems with ejection on my Savage rifles to trust my life to them as a repeater.
Of course people have been known to hunt with single shots.
And even bow and arrow. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric in NC
I think if i were gonna hunt something that could ruin my day, using a bolt gun. I would want one with controlled round feed. I've never had extraction problems with any of my Savages, but, have had a few feeding probs. due to rifle movement or tilting while cycling the bolt. And i'm sure if i was trying to hurry up and chamber a second shot at something trying to kill me there may be more than a little rifle movement. ;D
Well i wish someone would have told me back 1964 that i shouldn't trust my life to a cheapo savage, cuz i have been using them to hunt bears and cats, (and everything else in between) since that time. Must not of had any problems or i wouldn't be here typing. blue
In general, my pushfeeds have been more reliable (feeding) than my CRFs. Only issues I've had with my cheaper Savage's are after incorrect reassembly. But ... I've had a tight case refuse to extract on a 223Rem. If that had of been a tight case that slipped through my QC and made it to a hunt, I'd have been out of commission.
Cheers...
Con
Yeah....well "Dangerous Game" is something you haven't defined. Pa. is full of Black bears that can be 600lbs+. But they usually run the other way when they see a human. And cats? We got those too. Bob-cats are usually downed pretty quick with the .17 Fireball. Not too dangerous either.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluealtered
Read this http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifles_dangerous_game.htm and tell me where you find the word "Savage" in the article. Also, Hawk (who is far from my hero) does define what a real bear is and is not.
Dave
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Not skilled or experienced enough to define dangerous game for others...
As my experience is in Africa.
In Africa, think dangerous game conversations center around cape buffalo, lion, leopard, rhino, elephant, and depending on which tracker you want to believe, bushbuck. Many will include hippo on land.
Wait, would include wild Texas hogs when taken at 3 am with a knife.
May also include wild Texas women at 3 am --- no knife and no experience.
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IF I was to have a bolt rifle for so -called dangerous game it would be a controled feed Mauser. I have had extraction problems with my Savages enough to not want to use them on anything with teeth, claws, large heads full of horns, etc. Every Savage I have has had to have trigger work to make it reasonable. Accurate they are, but super relaible they arnt unless Fred has worked them over.
El Lobo
Thanks El Lobo.....for awhile there I thought I was the only one who would encourage more Savage shooters to go to Africa and be eaten.Quote:
Originally Posted by ellobo
Dave
Dangerous game to me is very simple, it is anything that you hunt that can and will kill you if you make a mistake while trying to kill it. Doesn't matter if it weighs 900 pounds or a 1 pound rattlesnake. The bears in this area average about 350+ pounds, not the biggest by any means, but will kill you just the same if you get between her cubs and her or between them and their food in the fall.
The mountain lions here run about 150-200+ pounds, there are getting to be larger cats taken every year because they are eating really well on the deer and elk. Are they the size of the dangerous game in africa, no of course not. However dead is dead. Hammer i'm sorry for wandering off subject on your post. I simply wanted to point out that in the 40+ years i have been hunting with savages that they haven't felled me if i did my job before going out with them. If i were going to africa i would research what has had the most kills and use that. blue
Sound and thoughtful advice. I'm willing to bet none of those dangerous game rifles are Savage's.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluealtered
Dave
my push feed always works on 3am wild game
I have yet to have an extraction problem with any Savage. I have hunted with single shot break opens since they came out and have taken my share of black and Brown bear. In my book a 1500 pound brown bear is as formidable as it gets.
[img width=600 height=394]http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk460/emeraldislandlover/Tonsofbears3bbc1.jpg[/img]
However,varmint hunting some 40 odd brown bear in one spot feeding on a dead whale (white), I can see where ejection could be a priority.
Neal
I have had zero extraction problems with "proper ammo". I have only one instance of extraction problems, and that was with a 22-250 and a load that was teetering on the edge of "warm". With proven loads or factory ammo, I have had zero malfunctions on extraction in any of my Savages. On feeding however, 2 out of 3 of my staggerfeed (can't actually speak for the third because I haven't found time to fire it yet) are kind of particular on the angle that they are held when you work the bolt. Held at a wrong angle they will try to turn the cartridge sideways. My three centerfeeds, that I have used quite a bit in the field, have fed 100%. As far as dangerous game, I will say that I am not afraid to use any of them against the most dangerous game that Iowa has to offer ;D . As far as anything more dangerous I would have to say that I wouldn't be scared of the centerfeeds that I have, but I am just not really into the "dangerous" game.
For a board dedicated to Savage rifles there seems to be a lot of negative feelings toward them. My 110 has never had ejection problems but it has occasionally had feed problems. Would I use it on the dangerous animals that populate my yard? You bet. You should be making the first shot count and that first shot should be already in the chamber before being charged by the black bear that hang around outside. I can see where I could be stalked by either a bear or a mountain lion (both of which are in my area although the mountain lions are very rare). So I do prefer my trusty 12 ga. with K.O. slugs for instant stopping power. But I have carried my .30-06 110 for protection against those black furry critters. My main concern is that I live in a populated area and I don't want my neighbors ending up on the wrong end of a bullet. Slugs don't travel nearly as far.
I didn't buy my 110 for dangerous game. It just sort of was adopted for that purpose because the bear showed up. Believe me it's the safety that I will be worried about when facing a bear because I will have a round in the chamber. Second shots aren't really likely to be available anyway unless I'm using my pump shotgun. And that I trust very much to work at all times. still getting off a second shot even with a pump isn't a likely scenario. If I'm being charged I'm going to be trying very hard to make that first shot count. And I can do that with my 110.
Would I like to own a much more expensive weapon for dealing with dangerous critters? Actually I do. It's a S&W .44 magnum and it's enough of a gun to deal with the dangerous game around my area. And that I have no doubts about working every time. And I might actually get off a second shot with it.
No negativity here. I just realize that certain designs of the magazines and I do not always "agree". I will say that I love every one of my Savages, and wouldn't wanna part with any of them, unless it is to of course replace it with another Savage ;D.
I love my savages to the point that there only are savages and ar's in the safe, and one 870 20 gauge. blue
Negative? I was attempting to answer the question. I absolutely love my Savages. They will be handed down to my Son when I pass from this earth!!
And I will acquire more!!!
However, should I be in a position to ever hunt a dangerous African game animal, I can assure you that my weapon of choice will not be a Savage. Unless Savage comes out with a control round feed and factory trued & timed actions....or factory built doubles.
But I think if that happens, the words "Savage, Accuracy, and Affordable" will no longer appear in the same sentence.
Dave
Not negativity just an honest answer. I like my Savage's. That doesn't mean it's the right choice in every situation...I would'nt choose it as a CQB rifle either.
That's the crux of it ... if selecting factory rifles you don't have the option of trued/timed components. If you converted a Stevens 200 from 300WinMag to 458WinMag using an A&B barrel ... I bet you it'd function better than an out of the box CZ550 in 458WinMag ... unless the CZ was fed solids exclusively.Quote:
Originally Posted by davemuzz
On the balance of experience ... I've had more 'factory' CRFs have trouble feeding then PFs. Extraction has been near faultless, the only issue being a tight 223Rem case in a Savage 110. My stuff up due to not FL sizing. I did have a Stevens 200 fail to feed ... but I'd replaced the magazine follower in backwards. ;D
Cheers...
Con
This isn't the only criticism I've seen of Savages on this board. I've seen criticism of the Accutriggers also. Again I've only rarely had feed issues with my 110 and they aren't really enough to prevent me from trusting this rifle for the dangerous critters that populate my yard. I don't need to go to Africa to confront them. I have to worry about confronting them every time I open my front door. I've never had a problem with either of my Savages with AT's either.
After I posted last night I worked the action on my 110 just to see if it would have problems feeding and I couldn't get it to have a single feeding issue or an extraction issue. I will admit that my 12 does have extraction issues but that's almost entirely due to me working the bolt slow. I get it in my head not to work the bolt hard when pushing a round because of the light trigger pull and I find myself pulling rounds out slowly too and that doesn't work very well. Still my target AT has never failed to work perfectly and I keep it set to the lowest pull setting.
I know there are Savage fans here. I just seem to trust them more than some here I think from what I've read. I could probably count on one hand the number of times my 110 has had a feed issue and I've shot a lot of rounds through it. And I bought it used. It's an early 90's model too. I can say I'm not sure I'd like having an AT on a gun that I would use to face a dangerous animal. I could see slamming the bolt hard in a panic causing the sear block to engage. But again my 110 doesn't have the AT.
I understand that a gun designed to work every time no matter what is a better choice. I just happen to think my 110 is good enough. It's been very rare for it to have a problem. So I see no reason not to trust it. I understand and appreciate people wanting to be truthful. That's what I'm doing too. I don't mean to insult anyone. It's just a little odd because most boards dedicated to a brand don't have a lot of critics on the board. Having the 110 is largely a matter of defense against bear for me. I wouldn't want it if I didn't trust it. It's a heck of a lot of rifle IMO and it's worthy of my trust.
Mine are a little weak on ejection and could probably use a stronger spring under the plunger but other than that no problems. However, I have not had the same experiences with CRF's that you guys have but have never owned a CZ either. All of my Rugers and Winchesters are CRF and have never failed in any way shape or form. They have been utterly reliable and I would trust them. Can't say the same for the Remingtons that I no longer own.
Savages account for 90 percent of my bolt guns. They are my number one choice for big game, varmint and target shooting out to 2000 yards.
That being said, I would not consider for one second taking a Savage bolt gun after dangerous game, two legged or four.
Two legged, it is going to be one of my semi autos that simply have never jammed - Colt AR15 M4 style, a Springfield / Imbel FAL and an Armscorp M14 built on GI parts.
African type dangerous game, it is going to be a proven gun of some type like a pre 64 winchester type action or a mauser, or a double gun.
I'll tell you what. If you lived with dangerous game in the yard like I do I'm betting you would be willing to use something - anything for protection even if you couldn't spend the thousands it takes to get a double gun. Maybe if I had come across a Mauser or a pre-64 Winchester when I had the money I might own one now. But I have chosen my guns for different reasons I suppose and I have no problem trusting my 110 in .30-06 on the dangerous game I encounter on a regular basis.Quote:
That being said, I would not consider for one second taking a Savage bolt gun after dangerous game
As I said before I usually choose something that isn't quite as likely to kill my neighbors half a mile down the road or more but if I had a perfect shot down in the gulley where I do my target shooting and I wanted to take out a dangerous bear I'd pick up the Savage first time every time. Maybe I haven't owned as many as some but I know my 110 is almost certainly going to work because it was worked a very high percentage of the time.
But as I said I trust my 12 ga. with K.O. slugs for all the dangerous game in my area. Maybe they should have stipulated African game because I don't think I have an elephant gun and I don't believe Savage makes one. But we certainly have dangerous game here including bear, cougar and bobcat. I would trust my 110 .30-06 on any of those animals. But when I take the garbage down the hill after dark I carry my trusty Pardner Pump Protector loaded with 7 K.O. slugs. Still if I had the perfect safe shot at a dangerous bear I would probably pick up the Savage.
Having the safety of your house to return to should you wound something that is going to come back and eat you, vs having the safety of returning to a tent is a whole lot different.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Ghidora
I'll take the rifle that is specifically made for dangerous game. Thanks.
Dave
Yeah but my house is not exactly close to where I put the garbage cans. A bear would have plenty of time to catch me if it wanted. Plus I have a sliding glass door and I'm pretty sure it isn't bear proof. Plus I also have a farm that's 20 miles away and there are bears there too. But I can't take the Pardner there loaded to the gills so I either take my 870 with the same slugs or I take the Savage but mostly I take my Smith 629 .44 magnum.
I realize that this is an old post but WOW!... I NEVER thought I'd read a sentence like that. Please understand I'm not questioning your experience and I'm now incredibly curious and I must know more. Please expound on that statement; what CRF rifles have fed less reliably than a push feed Savage? Were they commercial sporting rifles or military rifles converted to other calibers. I'm a huge CRF fan but you may have me questioning my loyalty. I've just never had good luck with push feed rifles no matter the make...always seems to be either some feeding problem, extracting problem, ejecting problem ,or any combination of the prior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Con
It seems this posting has rambled all over the place. Even Fred Moreo is sceptical of the Savage extractor or ejector as he stated in a recent post reply. Dangerous game. This thread was supposed to cover that dangerous game that are hunted on purpose, not accidently. In which I will reiterate, I wouldnt use a Savage push feed. The only truly dangerous game here in New Hampshire are wild /Russian boars or large black bear. 20 yrs ago or therabouts a guy shot a Russian boar that weighed dressed 568 lbs. It took 8 .308 slugs to down it. On the other hand, last year over in Maine, a 14 yr old girl killed a 500+ lb boar with one shot from a .243. Go figure. Those boars will charge you if they see or wind you, but they are few and far between here. And, dont get between a 1000 male bull moose and his harem. I had one step towards me and tear up some shrubbery as a warning. I vacated the area.
El Lobo
I thought we were on a family forum!!?? ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by drybean
I have had failure to extract just a couple times in my life.Now if you want to throw stones,my remingtons have failed to eject more than the 6 savages I have.As a matter of fact I have had no failure to extract using reasonable loads since going savage several years ago. The savages eject more positively than any of my remmys. I wouldnt think twice about using any of my six savage 100 series rifles om anything that walks.IMHO , I love the savage's for ease of repair and accuracy.
For those who don't remember, some yrs back, more than five for sure, there was a big rash of extractor problems that seemed to stem from the extractors being cast from silicon bronze. Evidently the casting process let excess metal under the lip of the extractor keeping it from grabbing the rim. Many extractors were changed to steel ones at that time. Occasionaly that problem seems to rear it ugly head.
El Lobo
Isn't your PH supposed to be standing next to you steely eyed and ready to step in and take care of things if his hunter has equipment or bowel malfunctions at the moment of truth?
That being said, nothing mechanical is fool proof, but with proper feeding and care, it can be made as close to 100% reliable as anything mechanical can be.
The big question is, can you chamber your 110 in a suitable caliber to be hunting ol black death?
Have 2 that I use quite a bit. The small bolt face has been a piece of junk and am tired of replacing parts. The last ones from SSS with the enlarged button head ejector and oversizer detent ball and extractor have been working good. The other is 06 size head and has worked fine. I have replaced some for others. Would I trust them with with a high priced hunt or my neck on them - NO!. I have never had any trouble with the Winchesters I have. Some are over 1,500 rds. Savage last year at the shot show commented that they were way too busy selling edges to wory with with this problem. They stated there were four vendors making bolt heads for them - of which are way out on tolerences. With the machines they are made on it would be easy to tighten them up...... my 2cents worth
I have one currently chambered in 458 Win. Mag., I would think that would do it. If not there are other choices that can be done like 375 H&H and I don't know if you couldnt fit a 460 Weatherby in there, but not sure on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncbob