problem with ogive &oal with 223 bullets

been reloading for over 25 yrs but just got into bench shooting 2 yrs now. i picked up a mod 12 lrvp a few months back and just plain out love shooting it (neglecting my 308 tigershark ) but couldnt figure out why sometime the same load shoots great the next so so (.3" groups the .6" groups ) i have been looking at my shot targets to try and figure out why i have a flyer every now and them .so i went back to my reloading logs and loaded up some that i had marked as good reload and shoot again my reloading is as follows clean and inspect brass measure and trim if nedded.debur inside and out , neck size with lee collet die using the same pressure , prime,drop powder (i measure every load ) seat bullet off ogive (i use a lock-n-load comparitor for bullet i shoot so they all seat off lands the same) in the past i would set my seating die (lee) up measure a few and load them .but this time i started measuring every loaded case and found that they are not the same ( loaded them @1.953 which is .01 off the lands) most were dead on but some were as much as .004 different . i am thinking that this is the reason for a flyer i get from time to time (temp and humidity is close to the same down here in the summer and i check wind flags and wait for it to die down before i shoot . i also keep my barrel cool waiting between 5 shot strings and clean it after 25 rnds which is what a shoot at each target 5 5 shot groups . and it noticed that it does this with different heads ie 69gr smk and hornady 75 match .i dont have this problem with my rcbs dies(match comp.bushing set with micrometer seating die). could it be the lee seater die is the culprit? if so i'll pick up a rcbsor foster,redding micro seating die.

Are you segregating your bullets by ogive? If the bullets are off in ogive you are defeating the purpous of tring to make them all the same loaded length by ogive.

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Originally Posted by 82boy

Are you segregating your bullets by ogive? If the bullets are off in ogive you are defeating the purpous of tring to make them all the same loaded length by ogive.

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Yeah....Nail on the head here. Separate your bullets by measuring them 'afore you load 'em. Then you can load 'em, and adjust your super-duper-fancy micro adjustment gizmo (Hey....I got those too!! :) ) so that all of your bullets are seated the same length from the ogive. (Or is that O-give?)

Dave

I believe the word ogive began as a French architectual term referring to that spot on the wall where the vaulted ceiling started to curve in.

ogive = aah - geeve

If I'm wrong, I'm sure it will be noted.

uj

lal357, hi there! Recently acquired a mod.12 s/s in .223 and had same problem with Lee seater. I was buying some stuff from Dillon and decided to buy his .223 seater. The seater stem is quite thick and the threads machined to very tight tolerance so the seating depth is not effected when tightening the lock nut. This die consistently seated 69 smk's with zero or very near zero run-out and really consistent seating depth. It was necessary to use a letter drill on the stem to accomodate the 69grn & longer bullets. Dillon seater MUCH cheaper than micro-adjust seaters with results just as good! Anyone know how to get my money back from Lee on their money back gaurantee? :D Agree w/ 82boy on measuring ogive to base especially with less expensive bullets. Good shootin' to Ya'

see i knew the great minds on here would come up with a solution i do seperate the bullets by weight but never thought about sorting by ogive . i'll try that and see how it works out wont be today just got finished cutting down 3 trees and i'm pooped.

Good deal, but when you measure them eliminate the base in the measurement.
http://i43.tinypic.com/6nxn4n.jpg

One insert on the French curvy thingy (;D) and another on the heel. Don't measure off the base, most times they're as bad as the tips.

Do bullet vary at times?....naw!

http://i41.tinypic.com/2pywb9s.jpg

Bill

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Originally Posted by BillPa

Do bullet vary at times?....naw!

http://i41.tinypic.com/2pywb9s.jpg

Bill

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Now....Bill has given me excellent advice in the past on how to properly remove an attached Savage\Stevens magazine. But there was beer involved.

I was just wondering if there was any beer involved in the measuring of these bullets.....OR could there be? (Not the actual reloading part though!!)

started measuring last night broke them down into 2 groups then i'll break each group into more groups later its funny they both shoot great i just couldnt figure out why the flyer would come in when i felt really good about the shot and suspected it was something to do with the reloading proccess .i'm just trying to eliminate the variables as much as possible. it does suck when you are putting them in 1 ragged hole then bam one goes off and turns a .2 group into a .3 or .5 group.

I also tried the Lee seater but found that it gave me too much bullet runout so I switched to a Redding Competiton Seater thinking that it would eliminate the problem. Not so, it also introduced runout owing to the fact that the bullet seating stem wasn't a good fit for the 53gr SMK's that I was using. Now have one of their VLD seating stems on it's way to me that I hope will help. The Lee Collet Die by the way is great and usually gives less than one thou runout. It would probably be next to zero if I turned the necks.

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Originally Posted by davemuzz

I was just wondering if there was any beer involved in the measuring of these bullets.....OR could there be?

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David, David, David.......need you ask? ;D

...Keep an eye on brass neck tension also... ;)

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Originally Posted by BillPa

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Originally Posted by davemuzz

I was just wondering if there was any beer involved in the measuring of these bullets.....OR could there be?

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David, David, David.......need you ask? ;D

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Sorry Bill....it was late, I was tired.....I had to clean up several beer cans.....or something like that! ;)

so once you guys get the bullets seperated into different groups do you still load them all or just a certain length of them? i just ordered a comparator kit since i wanted to load some 68 grain vmaxs. looks like im going to have to get one more holder and .223 insert after reading this.

I load 'em all.....but I load 'em all to the same ogive OAL.

So...for example....if you take Bills separated .223 bullets, and begin loading the bullets that he has measured with the ogive at .436. Let's say I want to load each bullet to measure 1.945 from the ogive.

So, I load the first batch and once I set my seater die I load all of the bullets to this OAL.

Now, I have the next batch of bullets (.437) that are .001 longer at the ogive. So, on my Hornady seater die, I have a micro-meter adjustment. I will "turn" this adjustment down .001 so that it seats this next batch of bullets .001 deeper than the previous batch.

Now....by the time I get to the last group of bullets, I have adjusted my micro-meter to seat these last bullets (.443-.436) .007 deeper than the first group. However, all of the bullets will measure 1.945 OAL from the ogive.

Of course, you may be thinking there is some difference in pressure because of the seating differences. And you may\could be right. But....the issue is, does this effect the groupings of the two different bullets? (the ..443 bullet and the .436 bullet?)

The only way to find out is go to the range....hang some paper and shoot it. For my T\C .223 factory barrel, it hasn't made a difference. For your gun......load, shoot and let us know.

Dave

On my seater die the hole was so small that it was hard to seat to the same ogive depth. What I did was make a new on that has the hole opened up to .221. That way hopefully I am seating according to the ogive or at least that is my thinking. I tried some test runs this morning and it seems like it is going to work a lot more consistently than the original setup. The .221 is closer to the bullet diameter than .214, the diameter of the Hornady comparator, so it would stand to reason it would be a more accurate measurement.

A few test ones I did are staying within .001" and that is with the Hornady that measures at .214 on the ogive and not at .221. I suspect that they are all at the same oal length when measured at .221 of the ogive. It seems to be seating them all to the same ogive depth so now I just need to sort by bearing surface length, using teh method in the pictures above.

Hope what I said makes sense, if not please ask and I'll try to explain my thinking (which might be flawed).

Dolomite

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Originally Posted by davemuzz

I load 'em all.....but I load 'em all to the same ogive OAL.
So...for example....if you take Bills separated .223 bullets, and begin loading the bullets that he has measured with the ogive at .436. Let's say I want to load each bullet to measure 1.945 from the ogive.
Dave

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That is how it is done, you did right.

ok im new to the who ogive here. to figure out what set your ogive oal is do you have to figure out how far you want to seat off the lands and what the length is from the bolt face to the lands? im assuming their is no standard oal measurement when measuring to the ogive becase every rifle has a different measurment from the bolt face to the lands correct?

Every rifle is different and every brand of bullet has a different ogive as well. Two brands of bullets might weight the same but have totally different ogive profiles. Do not rely on OAL of a cartridge as a means to put the bullets at the lands either because there are variations within the same brand and bullets as well. I have seated bullets to the same OAL but when I measured to the ogive I had variations.

Once I settle on which type of bullet I am going to use I use it to take measurements of the chamber. For me I use the 69 SMK's in my 223's. I then measure the distance to the lands using this bullet in a case where the bullet is loose but still snug enough to stay in place once ejected. I measure the seatig depth to the ogive on that bullet and use use that measurement as my zero clearance measurement for that rifle. I recently installed a new barrel so I am still trying to determine what shoots well but my last barrel liked .030" off the lands.

Dolomite

Bullets will have different ogive's from lot# to lot# as well. I have measured Match grade handmade bullets that will have the same ogive measurement from bullet to bullet, and have noticed a big difference in ogive length going from one lot# to another.

so far i have been lucky with my 308 i measured some of them and they were good. but i'm going to sort all my bullets by ogive instead of weight first . rain has me boogered this weekend so i'm replanning for next weekend to see if /how much improvement i see

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Originally Posted by Uncle Jack

I believe the word ogive began as a French architectual term referring to that spot on the wall where the vaulted ceiling started to curve in.

ogive = aah - geeve

If I'm wrong, I'm sure it will be noted.

uj

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Actually, it is pronounced "Oh-jive" FWIW

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Originally Posted by 82boy

Bullets will have different ogive's from lot# to lot# as well. I have measured Match grade handmade bullets that will have the same ogive measurement from bullet to bullet, and have noticed a big difference in ogive length going from one lot# to another.

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you are correct i had some spare time on my hands last night so i separated my 308's 168gr amax heads when i went to the new box they jumped so i spent 1 hr separating them all in cups (now i have found something i hate more than trimming cases) looks like I'm gonna be busy next week since my midway order is sitting at ups waiting for delivery Monday . hoping to go to the range next Saturday (had to cancel today 60% chance of t'storms in the afternoon today with heavy rain)

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Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly

Every rifle is different and every brand of bullet has a different ogive as well. Two brands of bullets might weight the same but have totally different ogive profiles. Do not rely on OAL of a cartridge as a means to put the bullets at the lands either because there are variations within the same brand and bullets as well. I have seated bullets to the same OAL but when I measured to the ogive I had variations.

Once I settle on which type of bullet I am going to use I use it to take measurements of the chamber. For me I use the 69 SMK's in my 223's. I then measure the distance to the lands using this bullet in a case where the bullet is loose but still snug enough to stay in place once ejected. I measure the seatig depth to the ogive on that bullet and use use that measurement as my zero clearance measurement for that rifle. I recently installed a new barrel so I am still trying to determine what shoots well but my last barrel liked .030" off the lands.

Dolomite

you say you use a bullet in a loose but still snug case to measure to the lands. how do you obtain this? just curious I also shoot a .223 and was just wondering fpr I dont have to buy the spendy measuring equip.

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Originally Posted by theflatlander

you say you use a bullet in a loose but still snug case to measure to the lands. how do you obtain this? just curious I also shoot a .223 and was just wondering fpr I dont have to buy the spendy measuring equip.

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Decide which bullet you are going to use, brand and weight. Take that bullet and start it into a case that allows the bullet to move. It needs to be snug enough to keep the bullet in place after you extract it but not so tight otherwise the bullet may stick into the rifling. Some people take a case and split the neck and do the same thing. It is whatever you can do repeatedly.

You chamber the case with the bullet in the neck. As you chamber it the rifling pushes on the bullet's ogive forcing the bullet back into the case. You need to do it a few times to get an average to make sure the rifling isn't hanging onto the bullet. Also, if the case is too tight the bullet can be foreced into the rifling giving you an incorrect size.

Also, it depends on the ogive of that bullet. Bullets within the same box can and often do have different ogives. And different bullets, as in brand or weight, will definitely be different.

In order to get the best results you need to measure the distance to the ogive rather than OAL but OAL worked for me before I started measuring ogive. Before getting the stuff to measure the ogive I would seat mine far enough off the lands that a difference in ogive length wouldn't have caused a problem.

You need to do this each time you change the bullet's weight or brand or both. Never assume that bullets that are the same weight have the same exterior dimensions.

Dolomite

Decide which bullet you are going to use, brand and weight. Take that bullet and start it into a case that allows the bullet to move. It needs to be snug enough to keep the bullet in place after you extract it but not so tight otherwise the bullet may stick into the rifling. Some people take a case and split the neck and do the same thing. It is whatever you can do repeatedly.

You chamber the case with the bullet in the neck. As you chamber it the rifling pushes on the bullet's ogive forcing the bullet back into the case. You need to do it a few times to get an average to make sure the rifling isn't hanging onto the bullet. Also, if the case is too tight the bullet can be forced into the rifling giving you an incorrect size.

Also, it depends on the ogive of that bullet. Bullets within the same box can and often do have different ogives. And different bullets, as in brand or weight, will definitely be different.

In order to get the best results you need to measure the distance to the ogive rather than OAL but OAL worked for me before I started measuring ogive. Before getting the stuff to measure the ogive I would seat mine far enough off the lands that a difference in ogive length wouldn't have caused a problem.

You need to do this each time you change the bullet's weight or brand or both. Never assume that bullets that are the same weight have the same exterior dimensions.

Dolomite
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whats the best way to go about splitting the neck of the case? I dint have any case loose enough to allow the bullet to slide properly wo getting jammed into the rifling

hacksaw, small cutting disc on dremel etc....