I will change the powder for next shooting season. I choose Varget.
Do you have any good results with this powder. What is your recipe?
I will use it with Lapua Scenar 167gr.
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I will change the powder for next shooting season. I choose Varget.
Do you have any good results with this powder. What is your recipe?
I will use it with Lapua Scenar 167gr.
A few things for you to mull over.
The default response needs to be: All rifles are like women, while potentially similar they are all different. Find out what yours likes, don't expect others to have this answer for you.
Your question about that powder. If you are choosing that because of the touted "Extreme" properties, you may be setting yourself up for a let-down. Powder insensitivity is NOT a universal property, it is such only under specific conditions. As an example: With 55gr bullets in the 223, Varget affords some fine accuracy. However compared to the very old ball powder H335, it is very temp sensitive; Dr. Bramwell has done many tests showing this.
Varget was designed for standard ball ammo in the 308(145-149gr). Personally, using 175 SMK's I didn't care for the results with Varget in my rifle. For me Win 748 or CFE provides the accuracy I desired.
Cheers
Could be me ,but I never had lots of good results with Varget. No doubt I just didn't try it long enough. What has given me some great groups in my old 110FP in .308 is Benchmark. W748 works well too. H335 has worked well in just about everything I've loaded it in. My best group was with a 155 gr Hornady match bullet over 39.3 gr of Benchmark powder. Not a screamer, but they all were cutting the previous bullet's holes at 100 meters.
You don't see this much but this is one thing Darkker and I agree on. Varget is over praised. It might work great for one person and the next one can't get it to work worth a hoot. It tends to have a large swing between lots which means starting over with every lot change. Sometimes you get lucky but don't count on it. If it works for you great if not....... I use BLC-2 with 175's and 155's.
I had good luck with 168gr SMKs and 44.0gr IMR 4064 seated to the lands or just off (.001). Average velocity was around 2,620 fps, ES was in the 30s. Shooting around 3/4 MOA @ 100 yards and had good luck with that load out to 600 yards. I'd recommend starting at 42.0 grains and working your way up, but the longer bullets like to be seated pretty close to the lands.
43 gr IMR 4064
Hornady 168 BTHP Match
CCI 200
LC 15 brass
2730 FPS
.011" jump shoots lights out in my rifle.
ETA: This is a model 10FCP-SR with 1:10 twist, 20" barrel.
I am with the 4064, Reloder 15 and BLC2 camp. Do a ladder or OCW test or even a combination and you will learn much about your rifle and how to find a load for it.
The load I like, although not the only one I use, was a duplication of the Military Match load, using the 168 BTHP and 42 grs. IMR 4895.
Using this load in a Savage Model 10 FLCP I shot some nice groups at 100 yards. The brass I used was Federal Match and probably Winchester primers.
When I worked up the load I went passed the 42 grs. and sure enough the groups opened up.
Except IMR4895 is a canister grade, and only sold to the reloaders not what is used in factory produced ammo. And no factory loads powder by its weight (grains) they load a volume of powder.
So what speed were you attempting to duplicate?
Darkker, You are more knowledgeable than most and for sure more so than myself. I always read your posts on this and other forums closely. You have opened my eyes to many things . However people have been very successful duplicating factory loads for some time now. All one has two do is look at the FGMM 308 loads. Both 168 and 175. The cases all weigh within a grain and a half or maybe two. I have seen within the same lot 500 cases within 1 grain. Powder pulled from 25 random cartridges weigh within .1 grain most less than .05. These loads duplicated with brass primer and 4064 in most rifles shoot nice groups. With minor tuning for the specific rifle shooting excellent. The weakness more than likely the individual, loading process or the bullet. Is this a testimonial for OCW I can't say but in this specific example, it at the least challenges and may even refute the canister grade and the powder by volume/weight argument.
Regards
Very kind of you to say Robinhood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
There is still a disconnect to many, that the handloader is a waste market.
1) By velocity, then yes. That is why I asked what velocity he was trying to duplicate. The handloader hasn't actually "duplicated" the ammo, merely copied the speed. My wife is endowed with D's. So if I find another women who has D's, have I duplicated her? Of course not.
Factories Pressure test each lot of powder. They know the exact burning curve and pressures. 4064 is sold by a company who won't even provide basic VMD, BR, BD numbers; you can't "duplicate" anything with that little info.
2&3) Case weight only means something relative to the same production run. There is a whole circus worth of metallurgy that can make cases. As one example read here:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...rtridge-brass/
The only factory of any size that uses canister powder is Nosler. But even they Pressure test each lot, and don't load weights of powder. Whether or not the BD is tight enough to coincidentally match a fixed weight, is only that and dependant on the BD. You don't pump out 40 billion rounds a month from Lake City, by weighing each charge.
Over on the Hide some time ago, the newest 308 sniper ammo; the mk 316 variant; it was decided that the powder looked like and was therefore RL-15 with a coating for stability.... So I provided some Naval warefare center testing of approved powders. There isn't "A" powder used, there are several approved for that application. Most of them being ball powder that is more stable than whatever extruded is used. As you may imagine, the factual evidence wasn't well received because after all, what they had "looked" like RL-15. Apparently going for the notion of: Don't confuse me with the facts, I know what I think.
Here are some Traces that may blow your skirt-up.
They are a bit "noisey" so ignore that they don't all line-up. Focus on the burning curve. Same components, merely a difference in starting Pressure. Look how that little change can alter the burning curve, not change the Pressure, yet also move velocity.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...ps0aeacd6x.png
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...ps0ktikfds.png
So duplicate? No. Match velocity? Certainly!
Of course the factory loads by volume, but in order to achieve the desired volume the powder would have had to have been weighed at one time, or they would not know what the volume would be. Once the reloader sets his powder measure he too is loading by volume because the powder charges do not weight the same, and I've chronographed enough rounds to believe the same is true for factory loads.
Now as for my so-called Match Duplication load, that is speculation on my part because the only thing a reloader can duplicate is the velocity because everything else is a variable, even within the different lots of the same components. Now add the differences in firearms even in firearms of the same model, caliber, and barrel length, and what is this in one, is something different in another.
The load I mentioned using 42 grains of IMR 4895 was derived from data on US Military Ammunition in Cartridges of The World; 9th Edition; Chapter 17, U.S. Military Ammunition; Cartridge, 7.62, Match, M852...
Then they list all the specs with propellent listed IMR 4894, weight 42 grs.
Now I looked at some of my saved chronograph data and I did not Chrony this load, and if I did I do not have any record of it as I had the basic Chrony and had to write the fps down and then do the match at home. But I will say this, and I was wrong I shot the load at 200 yards not 100, and while I have no measurement of the groups I was impressed. One group was nice and tight, the other a more laid back group was still all in the black but a bit opened up.
I cross referenced this load with my loading manuals and it was certainly within all safety margins for the powder charge and bullet weight and type.
This is incorrect, and what trips most people up about volume.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenhwind
They weigh it for a VMD calculation, which is a reference point only and not a goal of the load. Volume is measured in CC's, mL's or another volume measurement. They pressure test each lot, take a VMD calculation and load. Extruded powder has a very tight BR to BD control. A consistent case fill is what they are after. If the BD changes there is a corresponding inverse relationship with the BR. So if there is more nitro(power) then the burn rate slows down; with the inverse also being true. In this way the powder will always produce a consistent pressure. The weight may or may not change much, but the case fill is always the same.
I've had great luck with Accurate 4064, and IMR 4895.
With 168SMK, the load I went with IMR4895 at 43.4g
With 168TMK, I went with Accurate 4064 at 41.5g.
Iam using imr 4064 and 178 amax pills. Good groups from a Savage 10fcp .
Today testing
Varget 42,5 and 42,8 and 43,1
Best is 42,8 with speed 843m/s (2765ft/s) I think it is too fast. Lapua case 51mm, CCI BR 2, OAL 71,2mm, Lapua Scenar 167gr.
Savage 10, 1:10, 24", 308
Sunny, 3C, 1030,265m.n.m
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12...de209e1ce9.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12...c223f9eac3.jpg
If you like 4064 then you will love 4320. It is very easy to use in that it flows thru the powder measure very evenly giving very consistant loads.
Just dump it in, seat the bullet and go shoot very nice groups. But you can still weigh your loads if thats your bag lol.
Excellent. 42.8 looks good to me. That load isn't too fast and I doubt it shows any over pressure signs.
I've been using Varget for years and love it. Couldn't get any so I went the way of 4064.
I recently found a 8lb can and will start load development again with 150gr smks. That combo has always done well in my 5r 11.25 24" fcp
I have had good luck with varget and 178 gr A-Max and match. Settle with 43.7 grains and lapua brass. Shooting with a Savage 10T. Getting 2665 fps readings from my chrono. Got lucky ordering 200 and 208 XLD bullets from midway so this summer will be interesting.