Bottom metal not level with gun.

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08-27-2015, 01:28 AM
lrshooting

Bottom metal not level with gun.

Ive been in the process of making pillars for my gun and Im using the bottom metal from PTG and action with experimentation to get the right length. Ive been using a empty piece of brass to do this with, but its also partly because an empty brass feeds harder due to there being no bullet to transition rough points smoothly and will magnify everything that could be off. Primarily, it will affect the feed ramp itself. In order to make the mag work so that it will feed an empty case, the bottom metal has to be pretty far up, or at least the front of it does.

The rear does not need to be so far up towards the action, but if I go to far, it affects the trigger group and basically locks down the sear and trigger.

So I guess what Im trying to figure out is does it matter if I can feed a empty case or not? Or do I need to modify the bottom metal to make it level with the action. What I mean by level is the rear end of the bottom metal is further away from the action then the front. If i dont need to make it so that the ramp could feed an empty case, then I could lower the entire assembly and it would mean that the bullet would be the only thing that would have to clear the lip which would theoretically give me an extra .15 inches considering its 30 caliber.

Edit: So I tried using a case with a bullet in it and even though the cases themselves wont feed without the bottom metal real close to the action, the complete cartridge will feed flawlessly. The main reason I worry is if they are suppose to be able to feed regardless. My remmy 700 will feed empty or loaded cases, but the feed ramp is quite a bit different too so really, this is more precationary than anything. Once I get the pillars figured out, I can finish inletting my McMillian and start the bedding process!! In case I forgot to mention, this is using AICS magazines. I figured out how to do pictures so here it is...

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/s...psad141t7f.jpg
08-27-2015, 02:38 AM
J.Baker

I've yet to find a gun that will feed an empty case well, nor have I ever come across anyone trying to get one to before this. I'm assuming you reload, and as such why not just seat a bullet into said empty case to solve the empty case problem?
08-27-2015, 06:27 AM
lrshooting

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. Baker

I've yet to find a gun that will feed an empty case well, nor have I ever come across anyone trying to get one to before this. I'm assuming you reload, and as such why not just seat a bullet into said empty case to solve the empty case problem?

Well that's what I did, but ive never had to set magazine distance before and ptg had terrible cs and won't give me any specs so I was lost as to how it "should be." I did as you said tho and put a bullet in a case and it worked fine. Im refusing to deal with ptg again tho. Maybe for tools and reamers but I doubt it
08-27-2015, 06:57 AM
J.Baker

Nobody at PT&G would likely have a clue as they're a machine shop full of machinists, not gunsmiths or shooters.
08-27-2015, 08:26 AM
lrshooting

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. Baker

Nobody at PT&G would likely have a clue as they're a machine shop full of machinists, not gunsmiths or shooters.

So they must just make it so that itll fit and nothing more...they make an awful lot of reamers and performance parts to be ignorant of at least minor details. I guess I should be glad Im willing to be patient and do the experimenting required! Thanks for your help
08-27-2015, 11:53 AM
Roach_68

I went through the same ordeal you did but my rifle was already pillar bedded so I had to fit it together in the stock. I haven't measured the pillar length but my bottom metal ended below the line of the stock. What mag is that?
08-27-2015, 04:26 PM
lrshooting

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roach_68

I went through the same ordeal you did but my rifle was already pillar bedded so I had to fit it together in the stock. I haven't measured the pillar length but my bottom metal ended below the line of the stock. What mag is that?

AICS mag. The sent me an AW mag first which is wrong since they are stagger feed. My gun is the new center feed style so I had to send it back and have them give the AICS which I ordered. Still gave me the wrong mag since it's 5 instead of 10 rds like I payed for. Wasn't worth dealing with them over 20$ tho. I would have been able to make more working then I would have got back by the time I got them to comply >:-(
08-28-2015, 08:23 AM
Roach_68

Must be a .308 mag, I was thinking .223 for some reason
08-28-2015, 01:31 PM
lrshooting

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roach_68

Must be a .308 mag, I was thinking .223 for some reason

Yea it is 308

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08-28-2015, 04:23 PM
J.Baker

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrshooting

So they must just make it so that itll fit and nothing more...they make an awful lot of reamers and performance parts to be ignorant of at least minor details. I guess I should be glad Im willing to be patient and do the experimenting required! Thanks for your help

Dave Kiff is a heck of a machinist and tool maker, there's no question about that. Give him a blueprint or tell him the spec's you want on a reamer and he'll hit it every time.

That said, making precision parts to fit mass production guns is a totally different ball game as mass production pieces have a wide range of tolerances and more often than not when you try to add something with very tight tolerances (i.e. their oversized bolt body) to a product with pretty loose tolerances (factory action) you're going to have a lot of fitment issues. This is why so many have had issues with PT&G bolt bodies and bolt heads. Kiff simply doesn't have the knowledge or experience with Savage firearms and the plethora of changes that have been made over the years to design a product that will work with everything. In most cases he's using measurements he took off one or two factory parts which could have fallen anywhere in Savage's tolerance range, or he's using a blueprint form Savage that hasn't has many critical dimensions updated since the 1960's or 70's (Savage doesn't even adhere to the measurements and tolerances specified on their blueprints these days).

So how can you make a properly fitting aftermarket part that will fit over 50 years of production rifles when the tolerances are all over the place on the factory parts? Simple answer is you can't - and that's what Kiff is starting to learn now that he's jumped head first into the Savage parts market.