Range trip #4....I can't shoot!

All 4 shot groups. You will see a pattern of 1 pulled shot to the left and high mostly, that otherwise ruins a decent group. What am I doing to cause this?
Picture 1 - 105 VLD jammed .010 Left side Varget, Right side Re15 (29.7 Varget was the best at .455")
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h270/dm2596/4_1.jpg
Target 2 - 107 SMK jumped .025 H4895 starting at 28g up to 29.5g. (Most 3 shots sub.5" plus a pulled shot left)
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...6/107H4895.jpg
Target 3 - 107 SMK jumped .025 Re15 starting at 29.4 up to 30.3 (107smk's seem to work best with Re15) again, pulling a shot left.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...96/107re15.jpg

What was the wind like.

Was it always the 1st shot, 4th shot pulled or just random.

How are you shooting ??
Still free recoil ??

I would say loose action screws or maybe scope screws. I would check that first if you haven't

There was a very light breeze every once in a while for targets 2 and 3, but I waited until the flags dropped before I shot. Target 1, no wind.

The flyers were random in nature. All screws are tight. Rifle is bedded. Tange floated. Front action screw just stops where it will not tighten anymore. Rear screw is a bit mushy, I figure it is because of the plastic trigger guard, but it is still tight.

Was there any mirage?

I don't mean to be unkind, but it is possible that your initial assessment was correct.

uj

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Originally Posted by Pa Hog

Was there any mirage?

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No Mirage. It was late evening and no sun on the range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uncle Jack

I don't mean to be unkind, but it is possible that your initial assessment was correct.

uj

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Absolutely. It has to be my technique. The gun shows signs of potential.

Let one of your buddies shoot it and see if the results are the same. If they are, then start with bedding and trigger work.

uj

I've followed your post from the beginning. Best shooting was from the 2nd trip. Stick with the Varget and different seating depth's, .005 - .010 will make a difference. I think you are trying too many variables at a time. I've proven it to myself before. Just my opinion.

Could the swivel studs in the forearm of the stock have ill effects when they are placed in the bags? There are two of them on this Medalist and they are riding in the front bag when I'm shooting. I tried moving the bag behind them, but the gun was just too nose heavy to shoot comfortably. I didn't realize I could remove them from the stock, I figured they were glued in. Turns out they are not, so I just removed them. I figure this may allow the gun to recoil more consistently now.

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Originally Posted by possum1

I've followed your post from the beginning. Best shooting was from the 2nd trip. Stick with the Varget and different seating depth's, .005 - .010 will make a difference. I think you are trying too many variables at a time. I've proven it to myself before. Just my opinion.

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+1 - have chased bug holes before, change only one thing at a time - even take x# of loads, all the same and concentrate on your shooting, check weld, how the rifle returns to battery, hold, trigger control, etc. I still have to work on all of these, each and every time I go out..but have had some nice groups as a result. In my case I know when it is all going right..can just feel it, same when it goes wrong, nothing feels quite right.

Bare with me here, and I may be reaching, but lets look more closely and let me know if my observations below hold any water.

These two groups were shot with Re15 and 107 smk's. The left is 30g, the right is 30.3g. Now, let's imagine, or move one target on top of the other, and throw out the pulled shot. There would be a 7 shot group just under .5". No other two groups have been this close. So I am going to work on the 30g Re15, 107's and seating depth.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...superRe107.jpg

Now let's do the same with these two groups, as they showed the most similarity of the loads tested with 105 vld's. Throw out the worst flyer and another .5" 7 shot group. This top group was the best of the night and I felt like I pulled the highest shot, which was the 4th shot. This combo really felt good. Top group is 29.7g Varget, bottom is 30g Varget with the 105 vld jammed .010. Again, let's move these two targets on top of each other. So I think I will do some testing at 29.7g Varget and the 105's and test seating depth.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...rvargetvld.jpg

After I test seating depth with these two bullet/powder combos, I'm just going to pick something and practice on out to 2-300yds.

If my research is correct, you are using a Weaver T-24. Good scope, but when I went from a 24x to 36x I began to realize why I was not getting .3's. I could not hold the rifle or see 0.3 of an inch with the 24x. You must take into account that I am an old guy.

I would let a GOOD benchrest shooter try your rifle. Are you using 4-5 flags in 100 yds? The wind is not my friend!

I would be happy with those groups, but I understand, those flyers will drive you crazy and , in my case, it is only a short walk.

Did you read the Houston Warehouse link I sent you?

Bill

The weaver was only temporary. I'm using a Vortex Viper set on about 18x. I was using it at 14x, but bumped it up to 18x the last trip. The end goal of this rifle will be to shoot in 200-550 yd steel matches and 500-1000yd steel if I'm capable. I'm taking a long range shooting class at a local 1000 yd range in a few weeks and I want to get the rifle shooting well enough. We will chrony loads and make drop charts. We will be learning how to shoot prone and will be engaging steel target out to 1000yds and even be shooting 1000yd paper for fun. I will be learning alot on this day.

MDM,
The rl15 groups in your last post actually look pretty good. Aside from the pulled shots, they have very little vertical dispersion, mostly lateral. In my shooting, lateral is caused by wind, trigger control and rear bag placement/management. I would focus on that best rl15 load and see if you can make it work. Make duplicates (2) sets 3 rounds .3g + and .3g lower than your current "best" load. This will tell you whether the load is repeatable at that seating depth. Once you get the powder charge doped out, then test seating .025, .020, .015, .010 off lands. You need to find the point at which bullet variability has an negilble effect on on-target performance.

Couple of "bench" things. Yes, remove the sling studs- it matters...... On your rear bag, put something under it - like kitchen drawer liners that keep your tableware rack from sliping around in the drawer. This will keep the bag in the same loaction every time. Make sure your rear bag is lined up with the rifle and not canted to one side or the other.

Positioning - this is hard to describe, but I'll try. Get yourself set close to the bench, where both elbows rest on the bench. Left hand under the stock on the bag, controlling height with finger pressure on the bag. I use a cut off boot sock on my right arm to let elbow slide a little with recoil - otherwise I get a blister. You need to be planted that hard to the bench. Turn your body where your right hand/wrist is parralel with the rifle. When you grip the stock, don't wrap you hand around it like a tennis racket; just use your bottom three fingers to snug the rifle to your shoulder, with your thumb along the top strap behind the saftey. In that position, it's almost impossible to torque the stock with your trigger pull. Practice that grip by dry-firing while looking at the target (it's free). The x-hair shouldn't move when the trigger breaks.

Front rest. Get it placed about 3" from the fore-end. try to get it in the same position every time.

You have to really think through your setup before every shot. Consistency is THE KEY.

And the targets you are using can make a difference. I would try 2" round or square pasters of a different color(orange), preferably with some sort of small center dot or diamond. The ones you are using don't provide a very refined aiming point. Try different ones and see if it makes a difference - it does with my eyes.
Use or ignore any of this - I'm self taught and am still learning.
Elkbane

MDM,
Great comments from Elkbane. The shots that opened up your groups may or may not be true flyers, the change in impact point may be a reflection of something different at the bench, a swivel stud on the bag the rifle not going back into the same position, the rear bag no longer in alignment with the direction of recoil (or my worst enemy) not pulling the trigger at the same point in my breathing/heart beat cycle. I learned that last one when I put a 12-42 Night Force on my Savage F-Open rifle. Now it's exhale, feel 2 heartbeats, press trigger between beats 2 and 3. That alone was worth 0.3" on my groups, but I never saw it until I had the BRX cranked up to 42 power. At that power, I could see where the cross hair was when I broke the sear, and that was right where the 'flyer' hit. I moved the scope onto an AR and found the same thing with the heartbeat, so I'm a believer in that one.

Probably the best comment from Elkbane (at least as it applies to me) is his comment that you need to work on finding the rifle's natural point of aim by dry firing and watching the cross hair. If done right, it doesn't move through the trigger pull. I try to avoid even using finger pressure on the rear bag, if the rifle isn't pointing in the right place, adjust the bags/rest until it does, without any input from you, then move your body to the rifle.

Anyway, these are the lessons I tell myself every time, and it's starting to pay off.

oh, and x3 on only changing one variable at a time.

-warthog97

Thanks. The cross hairs seem to move under any method of trigger pull. The firing spring causes the rifle to move when it releases. The only way I can get no movement is a very tight hold and just pinch the trigger with my thumb and index finger. Are you all saying the crosshairs should move back to the original POA after the whole cycle?

Do you mark your brass that sends a flyer I do and load it up again and if it sends a flyer then throw that piece of brass away. I had this happen even with top quality brass

MDM,
If you are seing some vertical bounce in the cross-hairs, it's probably the stock flexing a little. I have one stock that I can see that in, and the quick fix is to move your front rest to the rear a little to minimze it. You need to have your rear bag really firm - I mean pound the butt down into it until it doesn't compress any more. Then adjust your front rest hieght to a comfortable height. You can always slide your rear bag forward and back once compressed to control elevation, but somewhere in that set-up will be a sweet spot where flex is minimized and the cross-hairs hold fairly constant. And adjust your trigger down as low a you can stand it and still be safe. A hard grip causes more problems than you'd think.

This was a medalist stock, right? Mine flexes a little. My customized BVSS is stiff as a board (which I guess it is, now that I think about it) and barely jiggles when I dry-fire it.
Elkbane

Elkbane said..."When you grip the stock, don't wrap you hand around it like a tennis racket; just use your bottom three fingers to snug the rifle to your shoulder, with your thumb along the top strap behind the saftey. In that position, it's almost impossible to torque the stock with your trigger pull. Practice that grip by dry-firing while looking at the target (it's free). The x-hair shouldn't move when the trigger breaks."

Just discovered this recently, and it really improved my groups. There are a lot of 'little' things to watch, and I plan to try a few more of Elkbane's tips (Thanks!!). The guys here are great, I had a LOT of questions last year and they all (Thanks 1shot and everyone else) were a BIG help. Still lots to learn, but each trip helps!

Take a deep breath and relax. This is supposed to be fun isn't it?

I looks like your RL15 loads are plenty good for this point in time. Now is the time to work on you. Use Elkbane and other's tips and improve your technique. Later, when your technique is refined, you can return to seeing if you can't knock off a few 1/100ths with loads.

The groups look very familiar.

Make it a point to assure your finger is always in the same spot when going on the trigger. I sometimes neglect to do just that and it will change the POI.

Follow through with each shot. After you fire don't release your trigger until you have the cross hairs back on your POA after you have slid the rifle back into its stop.

Do you focus on your cross hair or on the target. Don't shift you eye back and forth. I like to keep my eye on the cross (I use a Weaver T-24)

If you haven't taken the swivel off I'd get it off. It can't help being there at all. Do you have a stop on your front rest? Are all the nuts on the front rest TIGHT?

Also if you work on the follow through your x-hairs will stop that annoying jump unless maybe the spring is too heavy. Do you get much of a dimple in the primer?

Do you powder the front rest and rear bag and does the rifle slide with no drag? Does you bag stay put?

Are you shooting from a rigid bench...concrete? If not work on shooting prone. If its not a cement bench or a really solid bench you will measure it in your group. When you plant your upper body on the bench do you see motion at the cross hair? My agg is always better prone if I don't have a concrete bench available. The earth doesn't move as fast as a wobbly bench.

If I don't make it a point to exhale hold and squeeze I'll throw one.