Head spacing a Shilen barrel with a 111 too deep bolt face.

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05-09-2015, 01:22 PM
FredN

Head spacing a defective Shilen barrel on a 111.

So I bought this older 111 in .300 win mag. I wouldn't shoot and I wanted to convert it to .308 Norma anyway so I bought a Shilen barrel and installed it. I couldn't get it to head space so I took it to my retired gunsmith friend with the barrel wrench and he discovered that the front of the bolt lugs are contacting the rear of the barrel before it headspaces. In other words (I think at least) the bolt face is too deep! Has anybody ever heard of this? We fired it with primer only and the primer backed out about .015ths. After I got home I looked at some of the Win mag brass I had fired and the cases do look a bit stretched. So I am going to order another bolt head and in the mean time stone off the front of this one. It is about .112 deep. Does anybody know what is the desired depth?

Has anybody ever heard of anything like this? What did you do?
05-09-2015, 02:28 PM
Robinhood

.112 is well within normal tolerances. Have you considered the possibility that the chamber in the barrel may be too deep. Check your chamber drawings against what the headspace gauge standoff measures.
05-09-2015, 04:50 PM
J.Baker

Yep, just measured my old magnum CRF bolt head and it's right at 0.114" deep so your bolt head is right where it should be. Drop a case in the end of the barrel and measure how much protrudes out of the barrel. Should be in the 0.120-0.130" range. If it's less than that then the chamber was cut to deep.
05-09-2015, 05:27 PM
Hotolds442

Since you mentioned it's an older 111, where does the bolt head retaining pin sit relative to the ejector/extractor line? With the bolt in the closed position, which way does that pin sit?
05-09-2015, 10:04 PM
FredN

The retaining pin is perpendicular to the lugs, looking at the front of the bolt the extractor is at about 1:00 o'clock.

The chamber being too deep occurred to my gunsmith this morning. I took the action and stock to the stock man yesterday after we gave up and he will have it about two weeks. When I get it back we will check the chamber depth and cut a bit off of the barrel if necessary. In the meantime I'm going to get a new bolt head from Brownell's.

Thanks for the responses, it has been helpful. I'll let you know how it all comes out.
05-11-2015, 07:07 AM
GaCop

Looking forward to reading an update on this dilemma.
05-12-2015, 08:26 AM
short round

May need bolt body to match new bolt head. Newer style bolt head retaining pin is vertical when bolt is open & horizontal when closed. Assuming this is right hand bolt.
06-04-2015, 04:29 PM
FredN

Update: When we couldn't get it to headspace I took it to the stock man to open up the channel to fit the barrel and in the meantime ordered a new bolt head. Monday I got the stock back and took it to my gunsmith, he miked the old barrel with .300 win mag and compared it to the new one, .003 difference. So he put it in his lathe and cut it off, now it head spaces.

Besides the new barrel, I had the front of the action trued and bought (Northland Shooters Supply) and installed a barrel nut and recoil lug. After fixing Shilen's defective barrel and installing it and the new parts it seems to shoot quite well. I will be trying it at 100 meters over the weekend I hope.

I called Shilen and asked if they were interested in the gunsmith bill to fix their barrel and they said you should have sent it back, tough. So beware.

Thanks for you help here.
06-04-2015, 05:09 PM
LongRange

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredN

Update: When we couldn't get it to headspace I took it to the stock man to open up the channel to fit the barrel and in the meantime ordered a new bolt head. Monday I got the stock back and took it to my gunsmith, he miked the old barrel with .300 win mag and compared it to the new one, .003 difference. So he put it in his lathe and cut it off, now it head spaces.

Besides the new barrel, I had the front of the action trued and bought (Northland Shooters Supply) and installed a barrel nut and recoil lug. After fixing Shilen's defective barrel and installing it and the new parts it seems to shoot quite well. I will be trying it at 100 meters over the weekend I hope.

I called Shilen and asked if they were interested in the gunsmith bill to fix their barrel and they said you should have sent it back, tough. So beware.

Thanks for you help here.

Beware of what?? If it was a new barrel you should of never had your smith touch it, it should of went back to shilen and i guarantee they would of took care of it!!
06-04-2015, 05:59 PM
FredN

Beware of the possibility that your new barrel may have problems. It just never occurred to stupid me to send it back, we knew what the problem was and had it fixed in about 30 minutes, about the same amount of time it would have taken me to call them. Then I have no idea how much time for them to decide what to do, then take it to UPS (I live out in the desert) then wait for them to make it like they should have in the first place (hopefully) and then send it back. Maybe you like going through all that crap, I don't.
06-04-2015, 09:35 PM
Robinhood

Fred, When I read long ranges post I felt he was more concerned with your rights if there are other issues with the barrel. Im like you, if I can fix it why go to all the extra B.S. Sometimes it seems like too much trouble but in the end contacting a vendor like Shilen can have paybacks. I know of at least two people that were thrilled with how Shilen took care of them, like over and above take care of you. Anyway, glad you got it worked out.
06-04-2015, 10:38 PM
LongRange

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredN

Beware of the possibility that your new barrel may have problems. It just never occurred to stupid me to send it back, we knew what the problem was and had it fixed in about 30 minutes, about the same amount of time it would have taken me to call them. Then I have no idea how much time for them to decide what to do, then take it to UPS (I live out in the desert) then wait for them to make it like they should have in the first place (hopefully) and then send it back. Maybe you like going through all that crap, I don't.

I agree it should of been right in the first place and no i dont like going through any crap with defective products....but i did....the first barrel i bought from shilen would not thread into the action....9 days later i had a new barrel and have shot out 4 other shilen barrels since with no issues.....everyone was a tac driver.
I guess i look at things different than most ppl do....because i got a bad barrel from shilen there was no reason to beware....they make thousands of barrels a year one bad one got by quality control and i got it....thats just my charlie brown luck not a bad product.
06-04-2015, 11:46 PM
Hotolds442

If it was only .003" off, I would have left it alone, adjusted my dies up, and headspaced that belted mag on the shoulder where it belongs.
06-05-2015, 12:15 AM
FredN

It was .030, not .003 like I mistakenly said. It was too deep, with the barrel tightened against the bolt lugs it pushed primers out. (Fired primer only, no powder, no bullet) In any case I neck size, so it is headspacing on the neck. This is my second .308 Norma, so now I guess I should keep the brass separate. They both have tight chambers so I might play around.

I did not mean to imply that Shilen ships a lot of bad barrels, but this one was and a procedure that should have been done would have easily caught it. What bothered me was their attitude when I called and asked if I could send them the bill, it was "we don't do that" end of discussion. It was their severe screw up and they feel no responsibility for it. That sort of bothers me. I have one other, in .257 Ackley, and it is fine.
06-05-2015, 12:47 AM
limige

hmm, weird. on the bright side, it takes just a few minutes on a lathe to fix it. not really even worth shipping it back.
06-05-2015, 12:53 AM
Hotolds442

At .030" off, that's a whole nother ballgame.
06-05-2015, 08:45 AM
LongRange

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredN

What bothered me was their attitude when I called and asked if I could send them the bill, it was "we don't do that" end of discussion. It was their severe screw up and they feel no responsibility for it. That sort of bothers me. I have one other, in .257 Ackley, and it is fine.

and this is exactly why i said what i did....you really cant expect shilen(or any other barrel maker)(or anyone for that matter)to warranty a product that you had someone else work on....i agree it was their screw up but when it comes down to it...its not their responsibility....the second you or your smith put a tool to their barrel the warranty was void.

you said you didnt want to go through all the crap to return the barrel...i didnt either...but id rather send the barrel back(pre paid by shilen)than spend more money outta my pocket on a $480 dollar barrel.
06-05-2015, 09:32 AM
FredN

Quote:

Originally Posted by limige

hmm, weird. on the bright side, it takes just a few minutes on a lathe to fix it. not really even worth shipping it back.

My point exactly. Thank you.

Well I just had a long talk with Wade Hull, president of Shilen, and we are all good. He's going to call my gunsmith, Roy Buckley, and talk to him directly. He sees my point, I see his, etc.

In any case the rifle together and so far seem to shoot quite well. In the net few days when I have time I'm going to really wring it out.
06-05-2015, 02:51 PM
LongRange

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredN

My point exactly. Thank you.

Well I just had a long talk with Wade Hull, president of Shilen, and we are all good. He's going to call my gunsmith, Roy Buckley, and talk to him directly. He sees my point, I see his, etc.

In any case the rifle together and so far seem to shoot quite well. In the net few days when I have time I'm going to really wring it out.

so im guessing Wade is going to pay your smiths bill?
06-05-2015, 11:37 PM
FredN

All I know is that he wants to talk to him. There was no bill, Roy won't take money from me. But I think he is due something and I also wanted to know if Shilen cover it.

They (Shilen) told me for the first five rounds shoot it, then clean it. Well that took a lot of cleaning but it's getting better. Today I shot the last three and at 65 yards they where all touching. Sunday I'm going to see what it can do at 100 meters.
06-06-2015, 06:57 AM
LongRange

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredN

All I know is that he wants to talk to him. There was no bill, Roy won't take money from me. But I think he is due something and I also wanted to know if Shilen cover it.

They (Shilen) told me for the first five rounds shoot it, then clean it. Well that took a lot of cleaning but it's getting better. Today I shot the last three and at 65 yards they where all touching. Sunday I'm going to see what it can do at 100 meters.

i bet you shilen would cover it(but there is no bill)and i bet Wade wants to talk to your smith to find out exactly what was wrong and what was done to fix it...i also bet someone will be reprimanded over this.

what products are you using to clean?