Head spacing a 338 WM problem.

I have swapped a lot of barrel but this one has me stumped.
Never done a win mag before.

This is a used 338 WM barrel and I am beginning to think the chamber might be bad but I dont know.
Like the edge of the shelf where the band sits is rounded off.

I can not get it to headspace using forester go and no go gages.
The go gage is marked .220 the no go marked .223.
I put a caliper on them and that is correct so the gages are good.

The outside of the band of the go and no go gage is .532-.533
The outside of a new piece of brass is .529

If I get it where it will barely I mean barely close on the go gage the bolt will not close on the no go gage but the go gage is way too tight.
If I set the go gage so that the closing the bolt is a little looser but still slightly stiff, the bolt will close on the no go gage.

If I remove the barrel and insert each and measure from the face of the barrel to the back of the go gage, no go gage and a piece of new brass.

This is what I get.

Go gage - .116

No go - .111

New brass - .124 so the brass is actually sitting deper in the chamber than the go gage.

Why the face of the brass is actually farther into the chamber than the go gage is, is beyond me unless the chamber is bad ??

Any help appreciated.

Thanks

Set the headspace using a case.

Right but doesn't that sound a bit odd that a go and no-go gage would not work ??
Don't want to end up with a problem, and this barrel is not that nice.

It is not odd, brass is smaller than the gauge and its supposed to be. Remember, the go gauge ensures the brass will fit and the no-go ensures there isn't too much gap.
Set it up using the gauges. If its tight with the go and the no go won't work, your good.

Well thanks but not quite there.

I set the headspace with the go gage.
Its tight but it will close.

The no go gage will also close btu very very tight.

It does not come to a dead stop like when headspacing a normal cartridge.
A new piece of brass is very tight. Too tight.

If I tighten the headspace up a bit the bolt will almost close on the go gage, wont close at all on the no go which is good, but it wont close on a piece of brass either.

In other words I don't think I can set the headspace with these gages and use this win brass.

I could headspace off the new brass and use the 2 pieces of scotch tape method, but I just dont like headspacing off of brass since a brass case is not exactly a
tight tolerance machined part.

I spaced my 300 WM with a case, and it seemed ok at first, used 1 piece of scotch tape for a no-go gage, worked ok for a few rounds, then I tried to chamber a round and the bolt was very tight, tried another round and it was ok, when I got back home I went through all 75 pieces of brass I have, and found 20 or so that were very hard to close the bolt on, evidently I had picked a piece of brass with a low belt to head space with, now I have to tear it down and respace it with one of the pieces that were tight.
I wish I had a good way to accurately measure the belt height, then I would just find the thickest one and use it as a gage.

Later
Mike

Remove You ejector and Extractor and Reheadspace . Hope This Helps You DD

Well that is what a go gage is for but mine aint working, or I have an odd batch of brass.

That said I cant even get my go and no go gage to work together the way my other ones do so
I am just baffeld.

One thing about head space is you dont want zero, but then again the WM dont headspace on the shoulders anyway.

I am not sure what less than designed space on the belt to bolt would do. Not much I suppose since it shouldn't be expanding much
at the base anyway.

As long as there is room at the front end of the cartridge for the case to expend and let the bullet go.

No ejector, its a control feed and I have been feeding in the shells and gages.

Okay now I am going nuts.

Also this is not a factory barrel, so I am starting to wonder if it might be a custom short chamber or something..

I have changed and swapped different caliber barrels at least 50 times.

I always use a go and no go gage. I have a method and it works,
and I nail it the first time almost every time.

Now I am into about 30-40 tries on this 338 WM barrel and I just cant get it.

I have new brass and selected 2 that measure the same at the band/rim.
I made a go gage of new brass plus 1 layer of scotch tape.
Made a no go with 3 layers.
Plus I have my factory forester go and no go gages.

I set the barrel on the go gage and whack the nut.

One scenario...

The bolt will close on the go gage but barely.
The bolt will close on the no go gage with a bit more force but it does not stop.
The bolt will close on the brass go gage and also the brass no go gage.
It will chamber a piece of brass freely and feels like it should.

The problem is when I have the barrel set where the no go gage feels about right, and the bolt wont close on the brass no go or the forester no go gage,
a piece of new brass chambers way to tight, so now I am wondering if maybe its a custom short chamber and when the no go
gage is set right the factory new brass is bottoming out on the shoulder.

If I had some plastiguage I could probably figure out if that was the case.

I am really pulling my hair out with this one. I have had multiple barrels on this action including a 375 ruger, and
had no problems.

Either I'm confused or you are. The go gauge should protrude from the chamber .125"-.130". The no go should be .004-.006" more.(.130-.135"). If your brass is actually protruding more than the gauges, it's headspacing on the shoulder, which is CORRECT, let me explain.
The original .300 H&H magnum uses a belt to headspace from because the shoulder angle is very minimal (8.5 degrees) which is almost like having no shoulder.The belt was also a sales gimmick, leading consumers to believe a "belted Magnum" was the ultimate. The word "magnum was added to sound catchy. Actually "magnum" is a word to describe a large bottle of wine and champaign, and in this instance the larger cartridge case fit the description.
In the advent of improved cases such as the .300 WM and all the others that have been derived from the H&H case, the shouders have been sharpened up to 25 degrees in your case of .338. Because of the vast differences in brass and chambers and dies, it is virtually impossible to get a belted case to headspace on the belt and on the shoulder at the same time. If the case actually headspaced on the belt, and the case was short to the shouder, it would result in a ruptured case after a few firings. If you study a SAAMI print for the .338 WM, there is a dimension for a headspace from the shoulder. There is also dimensions for a belt, but the tolerance is so wide that the total accumulation is .015". These dimensions are for clearance only. The correct way to set the headspace is from the shoulder, as the belt needs no support.
It is possible to get a combination of brass, dies and a chamber that are totally incompatible. Once in a while this happens, and I will request the customers dies and some brass to correct things. Typically, I will chamber to a depth that is correct for a shoulder headspace, and then check it with a belt gauge. In all instances, the belt gauge will protrude more than the shoulder gauge and in that case the belt part of the chamber is cut to the proper depth with a boring bar. By cutting belt depth correct will insure that the case will headspace on the shoulder and not be held back by the belt if it's at it's longest tolerance.
Long story, short.....headspace it with a case. Fireform the case, measure the shoulder with a comparator. Full length size the case, measure it again. If you have everything correct, there will be about .002-.003" difference.

Edit, Thanks for the time as I know you are busy.

Well what is driving me nuts and what I cant understand is how can I set the belt space for lack of a better word, then that feels tight but will close on the go gage, and when I put in the no go gage it will close on that too. It is .003" longer. Now normally I would think if I could close the bolt on the no go gage the go guage would just slop in the chamber with plenty of room.

The really baffling thing to me is when the no go gage feels about right and the bolt handle drops just a bit before it stops, I cant chamber a piece of new brass freely.
If I have it set somewhere in the middle and slightly looser, then everything pretty much feels the same. The new brass, go gage, brass go gage all have about the same feel and the bolt will close but tight, while the bolt will also close on the no go gage and the brass no go gage but a bit more tight.

Weird.

Now I know why everybody hates belted magnums. I bought the barrel so I could find ammo most anyplace, but to be honest I have 180 1X 338 RCM cases sitting here and I am seriously considering returning this barrel and setting up a 338 RCM barrel.

>Either I'm confused or you are. The go gauge should protrude from the chamber .125"-.130". The no go should be .004-.006" more.(.130-.135"). If your brass is actually protruding more than the gauges, it's headspacing on the shoulder, which is CORRECT, let me explain.

Right. Probably me. I am major confused and I need to check dimensions again.
This is not supposed to be this hard and I have a feeling this barrel might have been swapped out for a reason.
Its not rocket science though - Drop in the go gage, lightly snug up the barrel, tighten the nut, check the go gage, bolt closes ok, check the no go gage bolt wont close okay, see if a piece of brass chambers okay then you are done.
Done it many times with no problems until now.

What a pain in the A$$

>The original .300 H&H magnum uses a belt to headspace from because the shoulder angle is very minimal (8.5 degrees) which is almost like having no shoulder.The belt was also a sales gimmick, leading consumers to believe a "belted Magnum" was the ultimate.

I read one reason the belt continued on was that after the H+H people would originally not trust a magnum cartridge without a belt.
I dont know how true that is.

>The word "magnum was added to sound catchy. Actually "magnum" is a word to describe a large bottle of wine and champaign, and in this instance the larger cartridge case fit the description. In the advent of improved cases such as the .300 WM and all the others that have been derived from the H&H case, the shouders have been sharpened up to 25 degrees in your case of .338. Because of the vast differences in brass and chambers and dies, it is virtually impossible to get a belted case to headspace on the belt and on the shoulder at the same time. If the case actually headspaced on the belt, and the case was short to the shouder,

Not trying to dispute you since you are a gunsmith but I have read the chambers are usually cut long.
First firing the case blows out about .010-.020 in some cases but that is just what I read.
If this is a long chamber then the brass shoulder should not be bottoming out.
Its more like its a tight chamber and if so I am not sure if I would have problems with factory ammo.

>it would result in a ruptured case after a few firings. If you study a SAAMI print for the .338 WM, there is a dimension for a headspace from the shoulder. There is also dimensions for a belt, but the tolerance is so wide that the total accumulation is .015". These dimensions are for clearance only. The correct way to set the headspace is from the shoulder, as the belt needs no support.

Okay now I am confused. I wish I could headspace to the shoulder with a gage but I cant.

If the shoulder cut distance to the belt is deeper than the brass, I would never hit the shoulder due to the belt.

Maybe whoever cut the chamber just did a bad job or to the previous owners specs.
The barrel has been used though.

>It is possible to get a combination of brass, dies and a chamber that are totally incompatible.

I am thinking that might be the case.

> Once in a while this happens, and I will request the customers dies and some brass to correct things. Typically, I will chamber to a depth that is correct for a shoulder headspace, and then check it with a belt gauge. In all instances, the belt gauge will protrude more than the shoulder gauge and in that case the belt part of the chamber is cut to the proper depth with a boring bar. By cutting belt depth correct will insure that the case will headspace on the shoulder and not be held back by the belt if it's at it's longest tolerance.

So I am thinking, and correct me if I am wrong, Ideally for a perfect belted chamber, when you set the cartridge on the belt, you should have a normal head space of .003" or something like that with new or resized brass.

>Long story, short.....headspace it with a case. Fireform the case, measure the shoulder with a comparator. Full length size the case, measure it again. If you have everything correct, there will be about .002-.003" difference.

Got it.

Edit okay I think this is an old old pre 1967 110 barrel for the old recessed breech and bolt system.

Been Farting around with this freekin barrel all day.
I guess I trusted MiGa gun parts to actually sell me a late model 110 Savage barrel.

My dumb luck. I didn't even know savage made barrels like this, if it really is a savage barrel.

The reason I couldn't get a good go no go gage reading is the bolt is bottoming out on the barrel edge.
I have seen enough savage barrels I should know better.

This is a control feed action so I was feeding the shells and gages in to the extractor,
otherwise I think I would have figured it out earlier.

It looks like the notches were cut out for savage sights.

IT has a SP in a SMALL OVAL and text that reads

"PROOF TESTED CAL .338 WIN. MAG."

It has a V witness mark.

If anybody can verify that is is a pre 67 110 barrel I will let MiGa know so they dont sell it to someone else without a better description.

Thanks from the patience form everybody. Especially SSS, I know you are major busy.

Photo of the old POS
Moral of the story is if you buy a barrel from somebody you dont know, make sure its not a pre 67.

[img width=520 height=450]http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z300/tammons3/misc/338.jpg[/img]

Yup, that's a pre-'67. I have an old 110L that is that style.

Does it have the bulge at the rear sight? That's another sign of the pre-'67.

Nope, didn't see any bulge.

Why anybody would build a crazy barrel like that with all the extra machine work is beyond me.

I did read the 3 layers of steel Blurb though, but I cant believe it was all advertising.

Just cut a little off the end and rechamber it. I was going to recommend doing a 338/375 Ruger to match the 375 Ruger, but the 338 RCM would be great since you have so much brass.

Andrew

There are not enough threads.

Its the wrong barrel anyway so I would have to turn off the recess for a start.

That and a chamber cleanup would probably get it to work as a 338 WM on a modern action.

The 338 RCM is way to short to re-chamber from a 338 WM barrel.

Well, that certainly explains all the confusion. I woulda thought you'd caught that a little sooner. ;)

Moronic me.
I was stoked when the barrel got here and I also got my headspace gages and brass.

I just figured the seller sent me a late model 110 barrel.
They sell gun parts, are an FFL so...

I looked at the stamps and did not see the modern savage stamping and figured, well it must
be a custom barrel.

It was a bit worn, but I never would have suspected 45+ YO.

At first it was so odd looking I thought it must have been off something else, but a nut threaded
on and it threaded into the action so I thought well they must have sent me the right barrel.

I looked at the recess and thought it was odd and thought well this must just be how they build the 110 WM barrels,
thinking the bolt head must slide into the recess and again thinking they must have sent me the right barrel.

Well wrong wrong wrong and I never even knew that there was such a thing as a pre 67 110 with a recessed chamber.
I should know better especially in the age of the internet.

Guess what, the seller did not know it was a pre 67 either and they sell gun parts and are an FFL.

They are very nice and going to refund me along with postage and I asked them to advertise it as a pre 1967
only 110 barrel else they might sell it 4 or 5 more times and get it back

Now I am looking for the right 338 WM factory barrel again.

This time I think I will be able to headspace it correctly since I wont
be bumping into the flange.