resizing help

I'm having trouble resizing bits of the brass. The expander ball gets stuck in the neck. I pulled the bottom lip off from the case that the shell holder slides into when trying to unstick the piece of brass in the press. I had to get the case out of the die and cut the brass case in two with a pipe cutter tool so I could slide the expander pin out of the brass neck. I'm thinking once the die is seated all the way down into the die to bump the shoulders back, the neck is resized and between the exterior of the die pushing in on the outside of the neck and the case thickness, it is not allowing the expander ball to pull back through the case easily ? I've got to get more imperial wax because the spray lube does not work all that well. I say bits because the majority of the cases are fine. It is only a few cases that is giving me trouble and I know that it's the same ones because I marked them with a sharpie pen while trying to solve the issue. If I take the expander pin out and neck size and the bullet seats fairly easy but the neck tension is much tighter though because I threw one in the kinetic bullet puller and had to pound the daylights out of it to get it to separate the components. Will they eventually stretch or should I scrap them and call it a day ? :confused:

One of two things come to mind, extremely hard brass or doughnuts.
This is a dognut :p http://i43.tinypic.com/2nuq2jr.jpg A little ridge of brass that forms inside at the neck-shoulder junction and if bad enough will prevent the expander button pulling through it.

If I suspect the little buggers are forming I use a pin gauge to detect them but you can feel them with straightened paper clip slid down the inside of the neck, you'll feel a bump as it passes the neck into the shoulder. Of course it they're pronounced enough you can also see them with a eyeball.

To remove them I'll push them to the outside with a mandrel then neck turn just barely nicking the shoulder to cut away the thicker brass. K&M makes a turning mandrel with a reamer to cut them out.
http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/pi...388695985.html

By the same token, if you neck size with a bushing or Lee Collet die ( no expander) and the base of the bullets are seated out past the junction they're not a problem. If a bullet is seated in them when the round is chambered it can restrict the release of the bullet then bad things can happen. This is one result of an undetected doughnut.
http://i42.tinypic.com/fvfvpf.jpg


If its simply work hardened brass annealing will fix it.

Bill

Thanks,Don't think it is the pin/neck causing the trouble now,it has gone beyond the isolated cases,i exchanged eit out from a.223die and nothing changed but had all day yesterday to fool with it since it was raining.I do believe it might be another problem.I do have a Lee collect die set and the resizing die is pushing the brass back just above the web to .371" the brass starts out at .375"-.376"it is sticking the cases in the die. What I did prior was just neckline sized,didn't run the case full length and the third time around to full length resize,it is sticking in the die.the solution would be to ream the die out to.376".I will source a pin or drill bit to check the neck though.w what I am thinking is that I have the barrel set too snug on the go gage,sometimes the bolt closes tight like when crush fitting a .223 round to fire from.if the die is bumping the case back that far,the brass can only go longer until it is 're fire formed.does this sound right?

get yourself a tube of lee sizing lube..Best stuff ever..Dry lube. Can even use it on the outside ofver
your brass..Aint never had any problems with it..

I just typed a billion word response and lost it. Once I get a phone line back working, I will 're post my thought.

Well I've got the phone line back today, life is good again.What I did was opened my .223 Ackley improved resizing die up .002" It doesn't sound like much but feels like a huge difference when running a fired case through it.I pinned the neck and found it is tight after firing so I 've got to step the powder up.I'm thinking a .220" pin should have fit but didn't so went with a .219" gage pin and didn't feel any detection of a donut inside the neck case however I did see a donut forming on the outside from my trying to neck size and not bump the shoulders back so I know I have to go a little deeper to remove that donut. I was running the .223 ammo left over through it and pierced a primer with leftover PPU ammo. Thinking I have the barrel set tighter where the go gage fits snug when closing the bolt so its a good crush fit when forming .223 ammo. What I did which may not have been correct but it worked and that was to unseat the bullet .025" farther out with a kinetic bullet puller and no flattened or pierced primers and all old .223 ammo are now fire formed to the Ackley Improved. Being temporarily poverty struck or financially challenged from my current health issues, I could only spring for a Bushnell Banner scope. It is a 18x so it will be an improvement from the 9x ,even if I only run it to 15x or so because of the budget scope clarity. It will work for load data and poking bullets at coyotes this fall.Hopefully I will continue to recover in health where I can do the overtime thing at work again....

One thing I did and am not sure whether or not it was smart to do was that I annealed the new .223 cases before fire forming to the Ackley Improved case form ?Any opinion on whether I should or should anneal them prior to fire forming ? I was thinking it would help form the case but then I am thinking that it wasn't necessary to do so since they were brand new cases....Thanks in advance, Ivan

The spec. for diameter @ web for .223AI is .3767" ..... My Redding body die pulls case down to .374+" I'm thinking that some of the brass chips/shards you mention might have become ironed onto the interior die wall. Before opening up the die I'd give it a thorough interior cleaning/scrubbing using 2 or 3 ought steel wool soaked with copper remover. Then use a quality lube for sizing. If you look closely at your die you may be able to see a small spec of brass smeared on the interior of the die. I've solved similar problems this way it might work for you ???

This is a case fired through before resizing.
http://s20.postimg.org/9z3v06o6l/DSCN2494.jpg

This is what it was after running through the die.

http://s20.postimg.org/tuzufq57x/DSCN2496.jpg
I opened it up .002" Maybe I'll continue to open it up so it is only a bump die ?

WOW ! I've got a pretty good assortment of .223 brass and the smallest base dia. I've ever seen on fresh brass was .372" if memory serves. Do you trust your caliper?...... Are you still sticking cases in your die after opening .002" ?................ I'm kinda curious since I've never seen or heard of this problem with .223 brass/dies before. .......... I can't see the body of the case very well. Could the die or chamber benefit from polishing with 600 grit lapping compound?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by acemisser

get yourself a tube of lee sizing lube..Best stuff ever..Dry lube. Can even use it on the outside ofver
your brass..Aint never had any problems with it..

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I'm running with Hornady case sizing lube in a RCBS lube pad but somewhere I've got a squeeze tube of the stuff you mentioned....I heard you shot a 200 at Odessa today ! Did you switch coffee brands ? That is most excellent, especially when at windy Odessa. :cool:

you missed a good match today at odessa..Scored my first 200 today....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gotcha

WOW ! I've got a pretty good assortment of .223 brass and the smallest base dia. I've ever seen on fresh brass was .372" if memory serves. Do you trust your caliper?...... Are you still sticking cases in your die after opening .002" ?................ I'm kinda curious since I've never seen or heard of this problem with .223 brass/dies before. .......... I can't see the body of the case very well. Could the die or chamber benefit from polishing with 600 grit lapping compound?

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I trust the calipers. They are checked and certified every 3 months at work. I use them on a regular basis so they have to be inspected and the certified .No, I wasn't sticking the cases after opening it up .002" I think the Lee die got through being undersized and I happen to get it. The brass normally reads .376 when brand new before and even after I fire form it until I run it through the die, then it goes back out to .375 " when fired through the barrel chamber again.I am not wanting to mess with it a whole lot because I want to make sure it doesn't get out of round or anything from my trying to make it better. I had it opened up on a Haas CNC machine at work. It didn't cost me anything but on the same hand, I don't want to keep asking favors. It would be easier to buy another Lee .223 Ackley improved die set and see if they are as this one is. I'm betting they will not be. They are fairly cheap but very difficult to find available in that set and caliber.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by acemisser

you missed a good match today at odessa..Scored my first 200 today....

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I'm sorry I didn't make it up there today, congratulations . The wind has been kicking up today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cranebird

I'm running with Hornady case sizing lube in a RCBS lube pad but somewhere I've got a squeeze tube of the stuff you mentioned....I heard you shot a 200 at Odessa today ! Did you switch coffee brands ? That is most excellent, especially when at windy Odessa. :cool:

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switched coffee and had a cup cake befor shooting...lol

I'm scrapping the brass and die and starting over with a 100 Nosler cases and a new die and see where the new resized case falls in at . I chose Nosler because the flash holes are deburred and supposedly the boxes of brass are weight-sorted so that every piece in a box is sort of weight-matched. Maybe that is not the case but I bought into it one time anyways. Lol. Eventually I will have new Lapua brass to sort through once I get this all sorted out and set up and get recovered better from my surgery to really be able to start shooting. This 1:12 twist is nice, easily shoots 52,53 gr bullets the best and I am also finding the 55 gr Nosler Ballistic tip boatails are shooting noticeably better than my previously favorite 55 gr V Max bullet.......Who knew this would be so much fun over a regular .223 ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BillPa

One of two things come to mind, extremely hard brass or doughnuts.
This is a dognut :p http://i43.tinypic.com/2nuq2jr.jpg A little ridge of brass that forms inside at the neck-shoulder junction and if bad enough will prevent the expander button pulling through it.

If I suspect the little buggers are forming I use a pin gauge to detect them but you can feel them with straightened paper clip slid down the inside of the neck, you'll feel a bump as it passes the neck into the shoulder. Of course it they're pronounced enough you can also see them with a eyeball.

To remove them I'll push them to the outside with a mandrel then neck turn just barely nicking the shoulder to cut away the thicker brass. K&M makes a turning mandrel with a reamer to cut them out.
http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/pi...388695985.html

By the same token, if you neck size with a bushing or Lee Collet die ( no expander) and the base of the bullets are seated out past the junction they're not a problem. If a bullet is seated in them when the round is chambered it can restrict the release of the bullet then bad things can happen. This is one result of an undetected doughnut.
http://i42.tinypic.com/fvfvpf.jpg


If its simply work hardened brass annealing will fix it.

Bill

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Thanks for taking the time to post the info. I will pick up the stuff in hopes that I won't have to use it but will have it if I need to. The bullets that seats deeper than normal is where my signs of high pressure are coming from in the testing phase although I cannot detect the donut, it is the longer bullets that are giving first signs of higher pressures so either my neck tension is too high or I am developing a slight donut. The good news is that the majority of the bullets don't run that far back into the neck.I was thinking that shouldn't have been an issue since I am not turning the necks that may cause the donuts to form but I think there is something going on with crush fitting the standard case and fire forming phase so thank you for the info. Just because I did not detect it on the couple of random cases I grabbed to pin gage, doesn't mean that a select few in the lot didn't develop a donut.I know they were forming on the outside ,maybe when I seating the die deeper it is pushing the donut to the inside ? The necks are not growing in length, partly due the Ackley improved shoulder but with the amount of firings on some of the cases, they should be stretching. I think with the new brass I will not trim prior to fire forming and then hope for a longer uniform case trim length for the reformed brass.

There are many thoughts, theories and ideas what causes the dreaded dounts. What befuddles me, you can have twenty sticks of brass, even our beloved Lapua using the same exact lot number of brass, sizing methods and tools some of the will develop donuts and others don't.

If donuts form I'll expand the necks all the way into and past the shoulder to push the thicker brass to the outside then turn it off just barely nicking the shoulder. That's where the little buggers like to hide. Don't go too deep otherwise you can run the risk of neck separations.
http://i56.tinypic.com/33jkzur.jpg


Bill

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cranebird

I trust the calipers. They are checked and certified every 3 months at work. I use them on a regular basis so they have to be inspected and the certified .No, I wasn't sticking the cases after opening it up .002" I think the Lee die got through being undersized and I happen to get it. The brass normally reads .376 when brand new before and even after I fire form it until I run it through the die, then it goes back out to .375 " when fired through the barrel chamber again.I am not wanting to mess with it a whole lot because I want to make sure it doesn't get out of round or anything from my trying to make it better. I had it opened up on a Haas CNC machine at work. It didn't cost me anything but on the same hand, I don't want to keep asking favors. It would be easier to buy another Lee .223 Ackley improved die set and see if they are as this one is. I'm betting they will not be. They are fairly cheap but very difficult to find available in that set and caliber.

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Amen on the availability of the lee .223AI die set. Sounds like you've got a "handle" on the situation. Good shootin' to ya" Dale

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BillPa

There are many thoughts, theories and ideas what causes the dreaded dounts. What befuddles me, you can have twenty sticks of brass, even our beloved Lapua using the same exact lot number of brass, sizing methods and tools some of the will develop donuts and others don't.

If donuts form I'll expand the necks all the way into and past the shoulder to push the thicker brass to the outside then turn it off just barely nicking the shoulder. That's where the little buggers like to hide. Don't go too deep otherwise you can run the risk of neck separations.
http://i56.tinypic.com/33jkzur.jpg


Bill

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I sourced a small batch of Lapua .223 brass last fall. I was not real impressed with them but thinking I got the culled lot section as the cases provided a slightly smaller powder capacity than the majority of the other brass I've used. Norma was as consistent for group accuracy but maybe the brass is beyond my shooting abilities. I keep hearing Norma makes the Nosler brass, I paid a bit more for the Nosler brass than I could have gotten Norma or Lapua for but being prepped and ready to go, apparently you pay a premium price. I'm just trying to take as much out of the equation to get on track. This should be a simple fire form, much like the 7-30 waters I use but for whatever reason, I am having a bit of trouble with it. I'm just trying to determine if it is on my end or a minor issue with the components I have sourced to use. You bet I'll be keeping the donut theory in the back of my mind if the new batch of components don't solve the issue. I really think the undersized resizing die is the culprit. Every time I resize to .371 " body size, it has to fire form back to the .375" chamber size. If it pushes it back and forth every time, where else is the brass moving as well ? I have a way of getting around using the undersized die. When I first decided to start reloading again, I bought the lee classic loader. The hand loader kit using a reloading hammer to decap, prime, smack the case down to neck size and then to seat the bullet at the final stage .I've since moved to a press, die sets but kept the old system in the bottom of the gun cabinet. The body is not full length resizing or shoulder forming like the standard .223 die set and it is opened up so I can neck size an Ackley improved case with it. Not a permanent solution but works until I get the new components sourced....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gotcha

Amen on the availability of the lee .223AI die set. Sounds like you've got a "handle" on the situation. Good shootin' to ya" Dale

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Thank you for taking the time to help. It always helps to get a different view of things or info you might have overlooked or not been aware of. That is why I like this forum so much.

Ivan

I size all my 223 AI brass with Imperial sizing wax and have had no problems over the years. I use a regular Lee AI die for full length sizing when needed and a Lee collet die for the initial sizing after being fire formed.

Well I took the die to work today and threw it in the lathe, using a med fine lapping compound on it. It easily opened it up , first time I ever used a lapping compound so I learned something new today.I had to shoot a couple rounds to have have brass to reload, it worked like it should now. I see Midway just got a new shipment of .223 AI dies sets in. Thinking I'll wait, I just picked up two more cans of Varget today, got 100 Lapua brass bits coming with a few target bullets.

Do you trim off the ragged edge left from the cannelure ?

http://s20.postimg.org/4olkn1gq5/DSCN2551.jpg

I wish I could help out more cranebird but I am not yet a wildcater. I will say that you should trim if needed or chamfer that burr off. Are you crimping? If you are,,,don't crimp for a bolt action rifle. Are you going to make it to Odessa this Sunday?

I hope to be working Sunday but I do miss you guys.Those were some leftover .223 ammo that had a cannelure crimp.I've yet to get a target scope, priorities are changing with the weather...

:peep:

I tried a new another new powder hoping to get the 75 hpbt's to shoot and the gun absolutely sprayed them,,, nearly 2 inch at 100 yards. I was kind of upset so I drove back home and made 5 of the 69 SMK pet load thats been shooting so well for me and drove back just to shoot a 5 shot group to make me feel better, and boy did it work! 4 under 1/4" with one out bringing group to just under 1/2". Just a matter of finding what a rifle can comfortably digest and squirt it out in a straight line.

I did put the Nikon scope back on and sighted it in at 100 yards. 26.5 gr of H4895 and a 53 gr V Max is the last I've reloaded for the .223 AI. 24.0 gr of reloader 10X and a 50 gr V Max bullet is still the most accurate load found.My resizing issues are no longer a problem.