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Im thinking about pillar bedding a rifle of mine its not a savage but a Ruger m77 Mark II that I took on trade for another rifle I had. I am going to bed the action with brownells acraglass and since Im doing that, do you all think it would be worth pillar bedding? Will I get better accuracy if I pillar bed it?
As I understand it, pillars are as important as bedding the action because they prevent the action screws from compressing whatever the stock material is. Once it compresses or swells, you're going to have binding. The whole goal of bedding is to eliminate binding on the action. So, yes, as I understand it, you really should pillar the screws. Not that difficult, anyhow.
You won't notice it as much from shot to shot during a range session, but between range sessions is where you'll really benefit from pillar bedding as foxx noted.
Hmmm...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotolds442
Hot, I really don't care what my rifle does BETWEEN sessions. Way I look at it, what it does on its own time is none of my business! ;)
The neat thing about pillar bedding is it can be done for free. Pillars are just a bit of pipe or tubing: lampshade tubing, water heater element etc. Whatever you find in your garage. You can actually achieve the effect of pillar bedding in some cases by just using a washer between the action and stock like on the Ruger 10/22. Once you've pillar bedded a rifle; glass bedding becomes redundant in many cases.
Remingtonman,
Pillars can certainly be done on the Ruger, but you do know that with the 45 degree action screw system, the M77 is an entirely different animal than either a Remmie or a Savage to install pillars and even bedding the action?
I'm surprised Ruger never went to an Mauser or accustock type bedding for the M77. M77s don't get raves for accuracy. They do get raves for the stock and workmanship but the Rem and Sav will outshoot a M77 though I don't why that is. The 77 is a beautiful rifle. The pillars for a M77 are angled. Glass bedding is very good for any free floating barrel since it positions the barrel so it will never touch the stock.
Mach2,
Agreed totally! The M77 is a beaut to look at, hell for stout but I am lucky to get minute of ibex accuracy out of my old tang safety version 7mm RM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibex
Thanks for all the info. Ive been reading up on bedding the ruger m77 and it really isnt much different than bedding a savage or remington. Im going to bed the front recoil lug area and the rear tang area. If I find that my Ruger 7mm isnt going to be a shooter I am going to rebarrel it with a mcgowen or CBI barrel. :cool:
Correct. Bedding and pillars perform two totally different functions, one does not do or replace the job of the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by foxx
Pillars were unheard of until the introduction of fiberglass stocks in the late '60s-'early 70s. Those stocks were fiberglass cloth over a foam core. When the screws were tightened they crushed the laminate and foam. To combat that problem pillars were poured using Acraglas, resin with or without chopped glass mixed in or even good old polyester body filler.
Then a light bulb came on. For years wooden stocks had the same problem, the wood compressed from screw torque so pillars started showing up in wood stocks. The first I came in contact with them (or so I thought) was when I started taking to Bob Pease(RIP) in the late '70s. At the time the pillars were poured using another new invention, Devcon F aluminum putty. I'm not exactly sure when glued turned aluminum pillars started showing up, mid '80s maybe? Some 'glass stock manufacturers, MPI for one, started producing stocks with a solid molded center section negating the need for pillars.
The "so I thought" comment comes from working on Mauser '98 rifles. There was a steel tube in the stock that contacts the tang and a boss on the floorplate that slid over a smaller boss on the bottom and contacts the recoil lug. They are in fact pillars used for the same reason we use them today but about 110 years earlier!
Then some bonehead came up with the term "Pillar Bedded" giving the uneducated the idea they replaced traditional bedding. Manufacturers even jumped on the bandwagon advertising their stocks as "pillar bedded" which is a bunch of bull hooey!
Class is dismissed!:p
Bill
when I pillar bed my stock can I use a hand drill for my pillars to be installed or should a drill press be used to keep everything square and inline? I dont have a drill press so I was thinking about doing the job with a hand drill.
I just use a drill or dremell. The hole has to be big enough to allow room for the pillar and its bedding material, but it does not have to be "true", as long as the pillars are trued-up in the bedding material surrounding them.
Your drill bit is going to tend to follow the existing hole, so do it in two steps. Open the hole from the bottom up maybe a 1/4 or the way or so, then finish from the top down. You'll have less chance splintering the stock, especially the rear one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remingtonman
Before gluing them in attach the pillars to the action then set the action in the stock to check they're alignment and length (height?).
When I install pillars I attach them to the action and glue them in. If I'm bedding the stock and installing pillars I do both at the same time. One shot and done.
Bill
I just did my Bobby hart using the method in this thread, have not sot it yet but will report back tomorrow.
http://discussions.texasbowhunter.co...d.php?t=294109
Once the holes are drilled for pillar bedding and the pillars need to be cut down what tools works best to trim the pillars down to length?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillPa
Would I be ok to use a hand drill for my pillars? Im kind of worried if I dont use a drill press and get everthing "square" it might affect my accuracy. What is your view on doing it a hand drill?
I cut the pillars to length a little long with a hack saw. Then I grind them with a bench grinder or dremel grinder. Finally, I use a flat file to get them FLAT and precisely the length I want them. I put them in place and test fit again and again until both is the height I want.
For drilling holes, I always have used a hand drill. They can be cut pretty big. In fact, they need to be big enough to allow for wiggle room and bedding material to work in and around the pillars. The holes do not have to be perfectly straight, but the pillars need to be straight when installed. Put a couple layers of painters tape around each screw so they do not touch the inside of the pillar walls. When done, the screws will align with the respective holes and the pillars will prevent the screws from compressing the stock material and the screws will not touch the pillars. Again, the holes in the stock need not be perfect, but the pillars must have a big enough inside diameter to not touch the action screws when they are installed, and the pillars should be mounted solidly into the bedding material. If the holes are "real big"and "crooked", they will be filled-n all with bedding material around the pillars and it won't matter, as long as the pillars are straight. (Imagine cementing a flag pole in the ground. Dig a deep and large hole. Fill the hole with cement and place the pole into the cement, making sure the POLE is straight. It doesn't matter if the hole was dug straight or not, if the hole is big enough to allow the pole to be positioned straight in the hole. A lot of cement around the pole, filling the hole, is not a problem.
I've done (pillar bedded) three stocks so far. I have found that depending on the stock, there may or may not be a lot of material around the existing holes- thus care must (and should, anyway) be taken. I "invested" in a small set of forstner bits-from Lowes-and found that for me, they are more controllable and precise than the standard twist drill. Not a big expense for peace of mind. In all cases, I used a cordless drill and a small torpedo level to keep the drill "square". The onlky one that was a little hairy for me was my MKII Classic stock; OEM thumbhole stock and although I selected lamp rod on the smaller diameter, there was still not much "wiggle room" when boring out those holes. I just TOOK MY TIME and it went smoothly- I am proud of the job and the results.
Be aware you will most likely have to "notch" the action bolt pillar that is rearward (closest to your shoulder). Because of the action configuration- I had to do this on my 110 and Hog Hunter. Used a Dremel and the "cutting" or "cut off" disc for that. GO SLOW and you will do fine.
As mentioned previously- a decent set of small metal / wood files are real handy. OH YEAH- if you say to yourself you can get by without the forstner bits and files-don't you believe it! Once you start tinkering, modding, accurizing, enhancing (pick your verb) your gun, you'll be doing it MORE and MORE! Just a short year and a half ago I'd never done anything to any gun other than clean it and change handgun grips. NOW...holy smokes!
Best wishes in all you do!
Brian
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxx
Awesome. thanks for all the helpful in sights. I was sweating it, thinking I had to buy an expensive drill press etc. etc. ect.... This has cleared up alot of fogginess I had lol.
Brian! LOL
I didn't mean to suggest the holes should be so big that you break the stock. :) But once done, the bedding compound is stronger than the stock, so don't worry that wood around the hole gets a little thin, as long as it doesn't snap when drilling it out and / or break the stock before the bedding compound sets. :)
But, yes, be careful and go slow. When you put a regular drill bit into the original hole, it can slip and twist in such a way that you can damage or crack the stock.
Didn't mean to imply that you did Bro! I had actually "broke through" slightly on a Tupperware stock...and that MKII Classic of mine...I honestly didn't think I could keep that darned bit straight enough to not cause a "break-out". AND as you've said- the epoxy (I use JD Weld) will strengthen the area anyway. Truth is I am NOT a very "handy" woodworker- but I've been surprised / surprised myself at what I could do after getting some good advice here...and taking my time (patience is ALSO not an attribute of mine!)Quote:
Originally Posted by foxx
Brian
I have an old 721 remington that is a wood stock, not floated or bedded in any manner, same as it came from the facory in 1952 and the POI hasnt changed since i sighted it in 9 years ago ;) 1/2moa withhandloads, maybe i got lucky !
That being said, If your stock is not pillar bedded but your action screws are tightening against metatl (metal tigger guard, ect) is pillaring still nessescary if your action is glass bedded? seems like the induced stresses from tightening would be spread out over a large area of the stock and would be lessened a great deal and you wouldnt crush much
My guess is you are not shooting in extreme temps and humidity changes. Wood will expand and contract depending on the environment. If the wood pushes the action or barrel one way or another, it will (theoretically) push or stress and affect the bullet somewhat. If, however, you are getting 1/2 moa groups under every conceivable circumstances, don't mess with it! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke45
As for pillars, if your trigger guard and other bottom metal is acting as a big washer and not allowing the wood to compress, then that's good. Don't worry about it.
Having said all that, I bet if you did decide to pillar and bed it, you will get even better accuracy if you, the barrel and your cartridges are up to it. But really, again, who cares? :)
Foxx- thats what i figured about the bottom metal! i was just throwing the old 721 as a conversation peice, that old guns been in the back of my truck in 95 degree heat, and elk hunting soaking wet in 33 degree sleet, dropped on rocks, ect and the poi never changed so i never messes eith it, it just seems indistrucatable. i obviosuly do believe that bedding will help pretty much all circumstances! ive just been contemplating about pillar bedding one of my savages lately, one has all metal bottom metal and i glass bed the action, trying to decide weather its worth pillar bedding or not(laminate stock).
Once the stock is drilled for the pillars and im fitting them, I am assuming that both top and bottom of pillars should be even with the top and bottom of stock, correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by foxx
Attach them to the action with the screws, set the action in the stock then check they're lengths. The bottom of them should be flush with the bottom of the stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remingtonman
After you happy with their lengths, attach them to the action , apply whatever goop you using to glue them in with then set the action in the stock. Having them attached to the action will one, make sure they don't move until the glue cures and two, it will eliminate any screw-action -pillars alignment problems.
Bill
Years ago (1983) I picked up a used .243 M77 in a local pawn shop. When I removed the stock for a good cleaning session, I saw "Sept 1968" stamped into the barrel channel. All I did to that stock was free float the barrel and it shot lights out for me with my hand loads and would hold a 1" group out to 200 yards. I've owned a few more Rugers over the years and all those were dismal disappointments for accuracy. I sold all the Rugers I had and have never bought another. Give me a Savage any day!