Still having ejection problems on *one* gun... magazine related?

Gun is a 12 LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor. Factory Target Action, factory barrel. All sitting in a McRee Gen5+ TMAG folder aluminum chassis, with Vortex Razor HD 5-20x scope and Gemtech Sandstorm Ti suppressor. Full-tilt boogie practical/tactical 'gaming' rifle. Shoots great.

Now I know that Savage actions can be a little fussy regarding case ejection - I've put enough rounds through enough of them to have ran across it before. What I haven't seen before is where going from one batch of brass to another of the same brand/manufacturer would cause a shift from (mostly) reliable ejection to complete failure. As such, I thought perhaps there was something amiss with the new brass.

I measured the case head diameter on the 'old' cases... .4685", .4680", .4675", .4685", .4685". New case measured between .4670" and .4675". Given that every once in a while I'd have one case not eject all the way before (rare, but it did happen) I thought maybe it was the odd .4675" case that was the culprit. So I dug through the clean old cases and found 4 more that measured the same and ran them through the gun. All five ejected flawlessly, and five of the new cases still refused to eject. Huh?!?

The next thing I measured was the extractor groove diameter... the new cases all measured right on .3910" to .3915". The fired cases measured .3950" to .3965". The latter ejects pretty much as I expect, and the former... does not. I asked around on another forum (65creedmoor.com) and others have brass with similar measurements, so I don't think thats going to change any time soon. Just seems odd, really odd, that the gun would be *that* sensitive to extractor groove diameter?

So at this point I got a SSS Improved ejector kit, and installed both it and the oversized extractor ball. Took it to the range yesterday... and ejection still sucked, badly. Once in a while, rounds would eject maybe 3 in a row, but usually not more than one. Good thing this rig has a drop box magazine, as that was the only easy way of getting the dang cases out.

At this point... not sure what else there is to do to the bolt as far as ejection/extraction, other than get a whole new bolt head?

One thing that did occur to me when I was fishing the empties out of the ejection port (had ample opportunity for *that* :mad:) yesterday was that it looked like the next round was riding awfully high... and where the majority of cases were coming off the bolt was right where they hit the shoulder of that next round. Now I'm starting to wonder about whether tweaking the mag feed lips so the next round isn't sitting up so high might be what needs done here?

Any thoughts?

Monte i would suspect you have a firm handle on the problem but one other thing to look at would be the depth and shape of the extraction groove. It might be a bit shallow or not as wide or wrong angle going into the case body any one of which could cause the extractor to not grip as well. Just a thought.

I just fought thru the same type issues. Cases would extract and ejector would kick them over to the right wall of the receiver and drop right back inside. Long story short, when I compared the ejector plunger to another rifle, the problematic one was not protruding as far out of the bolt face as the functioning one. I opened up the notch on the plunger that the retainer pin rides in with a file to let it protrude a bit further and Bingo problem solved. Maybe worth comparing to another bolt that is working properly??

There is one thing that gets widely overlooked in these situations. The diameter of the case at the shoulder. BR's and A.I.'s are especially suseptible to this: the diameter causes the case to wedge when it clears the chamber and is pushed to raceway. The width of the raceway is .445", and in this case the diameter of the shoulder is around .462". This just pinches the case just short of the apex, coupled with a sharp edge of the lug abutment, it hangs for a split second and the extractor loses grip.
I alway check for this when working on actions, and most of the time dress off the corner of the lug abutment with a dremel till the case contacts in the center of the raceway and not in the sharp corners.
Sometimes it only takes a teeny bit to cause or relieve headaches.

barrelburner,

I don't believe thats the case (pardon the pun)... both the ejector plunger and spring have been upgraded, and when the brass doesn't get hung up, it makes it out of the gun just fine.

sharpshooter,

Interesting thought... this is a 6.5CM, so it does have a little different shoulder angle/profile than say a .308 Win. Trying to picture in my head whether there is any good way of getting at those surfaces you mentioned without removing the barrel. Not a huge deal as I've got all the tools for that... just more as a mental exercise ;)

Monte

[QUOTE=memilanuk;254034

this is a 6.5CM, so it does have a little different shoulder angle/profile than say a .308 Win. ;)

Monte[/QUOTE]

Its not the shoulder angle, but the diameter of the case at that the top of the shoulder as Fred mentioned. When a case clears the chamber the ejector forces it up and to the right (assuming a right hand action) and the body of the case rides the edges of the raceway then the sharp corner(s) can grab and pulls it out of the ejector. When you pull the bolt back normally it will appear as though its falling off later. If you pull the bolt back slowly you may see the drops off much sooner.

Thinking about it, you can probably stick your finger in there and feel it.

I had the same problem with my 250 Imp. Now when I have a barrel off those corners get knocked off regardless what cartridge I'm going to feed it.

Bill

Billpa,
In the description you mention above, does the case release from the extractor fairly deep in the action or just right before its at the point of ejecting?

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Originally Posted by BarrelBurner

Billpa,
In the description you mention above, does the case release from the extractor fairly deep in the action or just right before its at the point of ejecting?

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It seems to vary somewhat depending how fast you pull the bolt back but in any event they didn't get anywhere close to ejecting. Some dropped off when a case was maybe half way out of the ring, others flipped end for end.

A telltale sign, or at least what saw with the 250 Imp, were two lengthwise scratches maybe an 1/8" long starting right before the top of the shoulder on the body in line with the edges of the right lug race.

Bill

Thank you, I thought as much if the fix was near the lugs it must be dropping the empty fairly early in the extraction cycle.

Okay... seriously. This is about to drive me to drinkin' :mad: I've got a paid-up non-refundable slot in a tactical match coming up in a month and a half or so, and having to run a redneck drop port ejection system (drop the magazine to get the empty case out) every shot is not an option.

I pulled the barrel off, put a bit of rouge on a felt wheel in a Dremel @ low speed and ran it over every corner & surface of the action that the case could possibly be touching on the way out of the chamber. Then I hosed the action out with brake cleaner, re-lubed where needed, and reassembled everything.

*STILL* dropping cases on the way out of the receiver.

I spent a bit more time playing with this, trying to 'feel' where the problem is. There is, for lack of a better description, a 'sticky' spot right about 1/8-1/4" before/after the bolt seats. This isn't specifically where the case comes off the bolt face, but I figured I'd mention it in case someone thinks its important (as in relevant to this particular issue).

It looks like the case is dropping off the bolt face long before the next case comes up out of the magazine - actually, the next round is still pushed down by the bolt head/body at this point and hasn't even started coming all the way up. So the empty case never actually touches the next round - until it falls on top of it. So much for that theory I had that the two were hitting/rubbing somehow. The 'virgin' cases are a fair bit smaller at the shoulder - .457 vs. .462 and do ride a small but noticeable bit higher in the magazine.... but I don't think its physically possible for them to touch this early in the bolt cycle.

I took a bunch of pics... hopefully someone can find something somewhere that makes sense... so far I've replaced the ejector plunger, ejector spring, and extractor ball. I haven't touched the extractor, extractor spring, or the bolt head itself.

Link to Dropbox folder

P.S. yes the bolt face is scarred/etched... thank you Hornady.

Seems I recall a similar problem with a certain .243 I have. It would drop the case before it was time to launch it out the side port. It was especially annoying with Federal brass.

I looked at the extractor & compared it to 6 others I had in my spare parts stash. The grabber on the extractor was a little thinner ( as in not as wide) than other ones I had. After a quick change out the problem went away.
I think if it was me, I'd look at the extractor before adjusting magazine feed lips. Maybe QC wasn't exactly Job 1 when they were made?....
Just my $0.02 from a similar situation.

Speaking of spare sparts stash...

I was down there looking, hoping that I might have a spare .308 bolt head kicking around. I do, but its a PTG with no ejector. Heck I've already got that 'feature', why pay extra?!? I could swap out it out with the bolt head from one of my F/TR rifles (originally got that one so as to have a bolt head with no ejector hole for brass to flow into for hot heavy bullet F/TR loads), and may do so yet.

I did have a 'spare' Fred special, a BR bolt head made up from a .223 bolt face so the ejector plunger was closer to the centerline and then bored out to .475" (slightly smaller than my 12 LRP bolt head @ .478", and a little deeper @ .120 vs. .110") and fitted with a bigger ejector plunger. Nice little widget, and IIRC it mostly fixed the ejection in a 6BR I had a while back. Right now its sitting idle, so I took the bolt apart, put the BR head on it, and put everything back together (yes, I will have to adjust the headspace later before I take it to the range).

The ejection is somewhat improved... basically if I operate the bolt slowly... it still drops empties right at the same spot. Move the bolt a bit faster... and they flip right out of the gun. Loaded rounds eject reliably regardless of speed/technique. This is with an improved ejector and spring, if my understanding of what all Fred did to this bolt head, and it *still* doesn't work quite right. Basically if the bolt is operated slow enough that the case flips over and hits the bolt lug race way... the empty case drops off the bolt face more often than not. If I operate the bolt fast enough that it doesn't have a chance to flip over and hit the inside of the receiver on the way out... the cases come out okay - most of the time (still not 100%). I'm assuming the loaded rounds never flip over quite as far against the inside of the receiver due to their longer OAL... they stay planted against the bolt face and under the extractor the entire way.

After re-reading those last few lines... I'm starting to wonder if maybe the ejector plunger/spring is pushing the empty case over against the inside of the receiver too hard and making it drag - and then drop...?

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Originally Posted by memilanuk

Okay... seriously. This is about to drive me to drinkin' :mad:

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Well, at least that's one bright spot.:p

The last one that was giving a problem, a 14 in 7-08, I installed the new style ejector , a new spring and a new extractor /140 ball and its been 100% trouble free since. The 250 Imp's ejection was always lazy. The brass cleared the port ..barely. I Installed the same parts and increased the ejector protrusion a bit. Now it spits them out, not hard enough to knock the phone out of Maw's hand when she's watching QVC, but out never less.

Anolther tidbit. Make sure the extractor is "Homing", returning to the same position every time. Make a fine line with a sharp pencil or scribe across it and the bolt nose then gently push it outward about the same amount it moves when jumping the rim of a case. The marks should realign when you let it go. If not than you'll have to find out why.

Its the best I can help!

Bill

Try putting some form of shim on the tip of the ejector, add about .030 to .040. Duct tape etc. and see if case ejects.

I'm not following you on this one... between a new spring and an improved ejector, what would indicate that I need a *longer* ejector? Not disagreeing per se, but just not quite tracking with ya at this point.

FWIW... I measured a few other cases in calibers I happened to have close at hand... Lapua, Federa, Winchester, Remington... .308, .22-250, 6mm BR... despite variations in the case head diameter (some of the Winchester are as small as .463-.464", while some of the Lapua are .469-.470") they all had the same extractor groove diameter - .404-.4065".

If one assumes that is what is considered 'standard' for a .473 case head is a .405" groove... makes me wonder WTF does Hornady 6.5 CM brass have a .390" groove?!?

I did the upgrades on the problem rifle i referenced above (a 22-250) and no difference, still had the problem.

After looking at the geometry long enough i finally figured it out. If the plunger does not extend enough to provide forward pressure the the extractor slips off the rim. The ejector needs enough preload and travel left to thrust forward once the empty case gets to the port in order to flip the case out. If the ejector has run out of travel at that point the empty case just falls down.

The loaded case with the added length of the bullet is keeping the plunger depressed more as it maintains a lesser angle in the action so it still has preload as it gets to the port. The empty case being shorter is at a greater angle in the action letting the plunger move farther forward and relaxing spring pressure compared to a loaded one.

Hopefully this helps add some clarity.

Come to think of it you could probably cover the back of the case with tape to test it too, the effect should be about the same as long as the tape is between the plunger and case.

Okay... that makes sense. I'll go tinker with it some more. I've got some extra ejector plungers... might be quicker/easier to modify one of those than do the duct tape shim thing, but I'll see what I can scrounge together. I already spent some time grinding on a spare extractor to under cut the hook more... but I lost my last .140 ball when it went flying :( Time to go to the hardware store tomorrow for a magnet... or just more detent balls. Might see if the modified extractor, in the BR bolt head works. The plunger location/design on that one is supposed to keep in contact with the case head better, and in concert with a little more grab from the undercut extractor... fingers crossed.

I still think if Hornady would make the bleepin' groove less deep the extractor would keep its grip just fine.

I never followed thru on it but I'm guessing tolerance stacking in the bolthead components and/or port opening are the cause.

i would be curious if the length of the cases that do eject are maybe just a bit longer from mouth to base or base to shoulder(which ever is contacting the raceway during extraction).

Well... looked like the simplest route was going to be to undercut the extractor on the BR bolt head, so thats what I did. Turns out it already had a .140 ball under it (thanks Fred!) - don't think I'd even heard of that little trick back when I ordered this one.

Anywho... with the BR bolt head and the under cut extractor... so far 30 out of 30 cases ejected from the 'problem child' batch. Like flipping right out of the gun (like they should)... like my 12 F/TR .308 does, either throwing them right into my hand if I eject slowly, or about 12-18" from the gun if I cycle it fast. Thats what I've been looking for! The 'old' cases with the .396-.397 extractor groove eject a bit more energetically, but then they always did.

Now to see how long this lasts :/

If all you did was polish the surfaces, you didn't take enough out. You actually have to trim the corner of the lug abutment to the point that the case does not touch the edges, but rather in the center of the raceway. ( I tried to take some pics, but my flash wouldn't work). Here is a pic from old files, maybe you will get a better understanding.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48...psda6a3f42.jpg

I was a bit worried about removing metal in places I shouldn't. I started with sander drum in the Dremel, but quickly changed to the polishing cone.

It seems like it was just popping free (before the mods mentioned above) once it gets all the way over to the side... beyond the point where it would be hitting that corner. Not sure.

Well at least you got it fixed for the time being. Be sure and make a note somewhere that this rifle has a specific mod to the plunger, or you'll be like me and forget just exactly which rifle it is that requires that .125 ball in the extractor and will not work with a .140 lol