Difficult closing bolt on some brass

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12-13-2013, 01:51 PM
DT400

Difficult closing bolt on some brass

Savage 12 FV 22-250
100 +/- rounds down range.
Can shoot 1" groups at 200 yds.
Go, No-Go gage check was fine.
Hornady FL resize die.
Never saw any signs of over pressure.
W-W super brass, not sure if it is all the same lot number but it came from a guy who was pretty anal about his gun stuff.
Some of the empty full length resized cases are difficult to close the bolt on. They are easy to remove, IE don't stick it is just tough to close the bolt. No visible marks,splits, buckling or any other damage.
Like I mentioned only some of the brass does this, not all. All of the brass has been FL resised and trimmed to a uniform length. These are empty cases not loaded.
The shell holder comes as close the the bottom of the FL resize die as possible.
I "think" the shoulder might be the issue but how do I setback the shoulder????

Any ideas???

Thanks

Darrell
12-13-2013, 05:44 PM
DT400

More info
Spent cases rechamber and allow the bolt to close easily. However whether I full length, neck, or collet resize the cases the bolt becomes difficult to close. Not impossible but decently tight.

Darrell
12-13-2013, 06:23 PM
CharlieNC

Sounds like you need to get a comparator to measure the brass so you can FL size properly; that's how you determine how to setup your die. Once you determine the proper spec, then you can also keep check to be sure neck sizing is adequate vs needing a FL size.
12-13-2013, 06:30 PM
stangfish

You may want to try and see if you're are in fact bumping the shoulder as Charlie is talking about. You can smoke - carbon the brass or possibly use a marker on the shoulder as a witness. Full length size and see if you are bumping/controlling the shoulder. When you full length size you can squeeze the brass long. Moving the shoulder forward .001 or .002 if you do not have the die going down far enough on the case.

If your case holder is not touching the bottom of the die make very minor adjustments trying the brass in the chamber after each adjustment. Sometimes we let our die back off the press a touch as we are sizing and this can cause the same issue. It is good to set the die in the "snug" position when you get it right.
12-13-2013, 06:42 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieNC

Sounds like you need to get a comparator to measure the brass so you can FL size properly; that's how you determine how to setup your die. Once you determine the proper spec, then you can also keep check to be sure neck sizing is adequate vs needing a FL size.

OK I will look into that. I am still confused as to how the case gets longer at the shoulder "supposedly" when I am full length sizing.

Darrell
12-13-2013, 06:47 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by stangfish

You may want to try and see if you're are in fact bumping the shoulder as Charlie is talking about. You can smoke - carbon the brass or possibly use a marker on the shoulder as a witness. Full length size and see if you are bumping/controlling the shoulder. When you full length size you can squeeze the brass long. Moving the shoulder forward .001 or .002 if you do not have the die going down far enough on the case.

If your case holder is not touching the bottom of the die make very minor adjustments trying the brass in the chamber after each adjustment. Sometimes we let our die back off the press a touch as we are sizing and this can cause the same issue. It is good to set the die in the "snug" position when you get it right.

If you reread my first post the die and shell holder are as close as possible...actually touch just before the breakover. Also mentioned is that the spent cases rechamber just fine..only AFTER any sort of resizing is there an issue. I can understand the lengthening of the neck as the mandrel is drawn through as the case is withdrawn from the die...Issue is even after collet resizing, which does not use a drawn through mandrel so it does not change the size of the case or location of the shoulder.

Darrell
12-13-2013, 06:48 PM
stangfish

It has to do with your dies being set up correctly in your press. You may be "short stroking".
12-13-2013, 07:05 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by stangfish

It has to do with your dies being set up correctly in your press. You may be "short stroking".

The die can not be pushed down any more...the die and shell holder touch. I am using the full stroke of the ram. The issue is not the placement of the shoulder BEFORE the resizing process....either FL, neck or collet, it seems to be the shoulder moving FORWARD during ANY type of resizing process. I don't know how the shoulder would move forward but it seems that way. If I "paint" the neck and shoulder with a black marker and chamber it (the resized case) there is a "thinning" of the markers ink after closing and opening the bolt making me think the shoulder has moved forward.....strange.

Darrell
12-13-2013, 07:09 PM
stangfish

What dies do you have and what dies are you using? You may need to file/remove a couple of thousandths from the base of the die.
12-13-2013, 08:38 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by stangfish

What dies do you have and what dies are you using? You may need to file/remove a couple of thousandths from the base of the die.

Hornady/FL
RCBS/neck
LEE/collet

I could see shaving a few thousands off of the bottom of the FL die if the fired cases didn't chamber well before AND after resizing but since I have the same exact problem after resizing with any of the listed dies it has me puzzled.

Darrell
12-13-2013, 08:45 PM
stangfish

Do you have any calipers?.
12-13-2013, 08:47 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by stangfish

Do you have any calipers?.

Yes, several sets including starret
12-13-2013, 08:49 PM
stangfish

Im going to pm you and keep this from running long.
12-13-2013, 09:23 PM
Hotolds442

Are you sure you're not shoving the bullets into the lands? Find one that chambers hard and inspect the bullet for grooving at the ogive. Then if you have a bullet puller, pull the bullet and see if it still chambers hard.
12-13-2013, 09:25 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotolds442

Are you sure you're not shoving the bullets into the lands? Find one that chambers hard and inspect the bullet for grooving at the ogive. Then if you have a bullet puller, pull the bullet and see if it still chambers hard.

As mentioned these are empty cases. No bullets, primer or powder just empty brass.

Darrell
12-13-2013, 09:39 PM
Hotolds442

Missed the empty part, sorry.
12-13-2013, 09:55 PM
jpdown

Screw your FL die down 1/8 to 1/4 a turn more and give it a try on the new brass.
12-14-2013, 12:14 AM
barrel-nut

What JP said. Sounds like your press is stretching slightly under load. I know mine does. Screwing in the die a little more should take care of the problem. Also make sure your cases are lubricated well.
Also as noted, a means to measure case shoulder setback is indispensable. I like the RCBS Precision Mic. But as with all things reloading, there are probably a dozen good ways to skin this particular cat.
The part about the Lee Collet die causing this also, is definitely puzzling though.
12-14-2013, 12:19 AM
stangfish

Post #8

Quote:

The die can not be pushed down any more...the die and shell holder touch.
12-14-2013, 12:43 AM
barrel-nut

If his press is springing a little, then adjusting the die to the ram at the top of the stroke ( with no case in it), then lowering the ram and turning the die in a little more, will close the gap when the press is under load and "springing" or stretching. Depending on what press is being used this may or may not be the issue. As I stated earlier, it's an issue with mine. The loading manual even recommends this method. But ultimately, a method of measuring both the case length to the datum point on the shoulder, and the headspace of the chamber, would help in diagnosing and solving this issue.
12-14-2013, 10:47 AM
MacDR

I size all my rifle cases so there is a slight resistance to lock up/bolt closure. I believe this extends case life and adds to accuracy. If you prefer a looser fit then here is my advice.

Assuming you have given the dies an extra 1/2 turn after they are adjusted to touch the shell holder, the fact that all three dies result in this problem tends to point to a rifle chamber issue. Give the chamber a very thorough clean. It is amazing how much crud can build up in a chamber over time. Don't assume that the chamber is okay just because factory loads chamber without problems. My experience is that factory loads tend to be smaller overall. If the cleaning doesn't do the trick then, as you mention that a fired case fits okay, you can adjust the Lee collet die to just touch the shoulder. This will leave the case fitted to your chamber and will only resize the neck. There is one other possibility that comes to mind although less likely. Are cases in your shellholder really loose vertically? It is possible that the slot is cut too deep and the cases are not fully entering the die as a result.
12-14-2013, 11:22 AM
stangfish

Quote:

There is one other possibility that comes to mind although less likely. Are cases in your shellholder really loose vertically? It is possible that the slot is cut too deep and the cases are not fully entering the die as a result.

I had given ths a thought as well. Currently he is working on a way to measure his cases. In the scenario Mac talks about a thin shim may help.
12-14-2013, 10:33 PM
DT400

SOLVED at least partially

Thanks all for your help.
Between Stangfish's help and MacDR mentioning press flex I was able to come to some conclusions.

1) COAL gauge that measures on the ogive will work for measuring neck set back if you use a larger die...I used a .30 cal ogive die on the 22-250 case and worked beautifully.
2) Even a full frame (not C ) press will find some flex, maybe not in the frame but somewhere in the mechanics it did flex. Once I realized this and turned the die in and started measuring neck setback I was on my way.

I have it all working very smoothly at this point.
I still am not sure why the bolt became tough to close after only doing a neck or collet size...My thought it that the cases were always too long from before I fired them from this gun and never shrunk back SO I "think" that now that the cases are slightly shorter att he neck than required then once fire formed in this guns chamber I might be able to just neck or collet size.
We shall see after I can fire a few more rounds if I can get away without FL sizing.

Thanks all for the help...it all made me think the issue through beyond what the naked eye could see.

Darrell